Beyond Basic Training

[vmills]

I've got a 5-month old puppy who knows the basic commands (Sit, Down, Stay, and Come) via hand signals and verbally, but follows them inconsistently. In other words, if he believes there is no treat forthcoming (his nose knows), then he's not about to follow any kind of command.

I'm wondering what I need to do to get a consistent positive response. I'm thinking about training classes, but have no idea where to start looking for a good trainer (in CT).

valmillsy
Designer Puppys

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Dogs and puppies that respond this way have been trained by you, altho most likely inadvertently, to need the food to perform the behavior.

Start by placing food on a table where the pup can see it when you work with him. Feed him a treat only AFTER the behavior, and don't hold any in your hand.

You can also try incorporating play and praise as part of the reward, especially if he likes to play ball or fetch.

A class is also a good idea, and I am sure you will also get some great advice from some of the good trainers on this board.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I agree with Red, start by making sure that there are no treats in your hands or in your dog's sight while you train, and don't even move to reach for the treat until after he has done the behavior. Otherwise the treat is a bribe to get the dog to finish the behavior, rather than a reward for a job well done.

When I started training my dog, when I practiced come I didn't even realize that when I reached for the treat before she got to me, I was bribing her to come. Then I couldn't figure out why she wouldn't come to me if I didn't have treats. I experimented by pretending there were treats in my pocket where I usually kept them, and when I called her I caught myself reaching for the treats. Even when I didn't have treats in my pocket, reaching for the treats bribed her to come to me and she would do the behavior.

(Even now her recall isn't 100%, and when I REALLY need her to come I still reach in my pocket.... and it still works.)

I would also suggest not treating after every cue you give your dog. Give him a cue, when he does that behavior, say "Yay!" or some other kind of quick praise, and then immediately give another cue. After the second behavior go ahead and treat. Start out by treating him about 80% of the time, and then as he gets better and better, decrease the treats you give.

 

[vmills]

Thank you both for the quick feedback - what I'm getting is the food must be the reward for the requested behavior and NOT a bribe to do it in the first place. I learned the basic commands from a DVD called It's Pawsible! and the trainer does make the distinction between reward and bribe. Guess I need to review it again!

valmillsy

 

[NicoleLJ]

THis is why I try to train with a toy or praise. Some dogs are so smart and have such good noses that they will decide only to follow through if they know a treat is coming. I agree with Red also.

 

[adojrts]

When I started training my dog, when I practiced come I didn't even realize that when I reached for the treat before she got to me, I was bribing her to come. Then I couldn't figure out why she wouldn't come to me if I didn't have treats. I experimented by pretending there were treats in my pocket where I usually kept them, and when I called her I caught myself reaching for the treats. Even when I didn't have treats in my pocket, reaching for the treats bribed her to come to me and she would do the behavior.

(Even now her recall isn't 100%, and when I REALLY need her to come I still reach in my pocket.... and it still works.)

QUOTE]


I would avoid doing this at all costs. In my experience it is lying to the dog and what you want the dog to do will go away unless you do bribe/lure them given enough times or reps. In other words, the dog will say, "Produce it first or I wont do it".

 

[Doberluv]

Some dogs are so smart and have such good noses that they will decide only to follow through if they know a treat is coming.

Only when they're used incorrectly... as a bribe. As a reinforcer, food is of high value to most dogs and raises the odds of increasing behavior significantly and swiftly. I use treats and my dogs don't only comply if I have treats in my pocket. I don't always have them in my hand, but sometimes I do. They get lessons in "doggie zen" all by itself. In other words, they sniff my hand that has treats in it and only by backing off do they get the treat. They learn that direct access doesn't pay off. They've learned that treats come to them ONLY after compliance. It might be only a baby step toward the total behavior or it might be the whole behaivor, depending on where we are on the skill.

Don't always retreive the treat from the same place. Once the behavior is well on it's way, stop giving a treat for each response and move onto a fixed ratio for a few sessions. (every 3 responses for example) Then go onto a variable reinforcement schedule. This is not a completely random delivery, but is based on an average number of responses to cues. (like how a slot machine works)

It is so common for people to simplify things and say that using treats makes their dogs only perform if they have treats. It is not the use of treats. It is the incorrect use of treats.

I agree with Adojrts in that the promise of a treat before the behavior is performed is a bribe. (a dangerous game. You're in essence rewarding non-compliance) And promising or using the cue that you're about to get a treat, but not give the treat can quickly cause a behavior to regress (maybe not right away but if done regularly, the dog will catch on) because the if the dog complies but the promised treat is not delivered, that is more like a punishment than anything else for complying.

Even now her recall isn't 100%, and when I REALLY need her to come I still reach in my pocket.... and it still works.

It still works because you haven't done it very many times probably. She is still pairing the reaching in your pocket with getting treats. But when the treats don't come very many times, the act of reaching in your pocket will lose meaning. Right now it's a conditioned reinforcer. It's like clicking a clicker but not delivering a treat. Soon the clicker loses it's prime as a conditioned reinforcer.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I would avoid doing this at all costs. In my experience it is lying to the dog and what you want the dog to do will go away unless you do bribe/lure them given enough times or reps. In other words, the dog will say, "Produce it first or I wont do it".

Well, yes, I was using myself as an example of what NOT to do.

Sometimes it's nice to hear that not every trainer is perfect. Doesn't mean I don't KNOW what I'm doing wrong.

 

[adojrts]

Well, yes, I was using myself as an example of what NOT to do.

Sometimes it's nice to hear that not every trainer is perfect. Doesn't mean I don't KNOW what I'm doing wrong.

Then we agree and had the same experince because I made the same one. And who said trainers were perfect or claimed to be? The best ones I know admit their mistakes and learn by them.

 

[smkie]

I Do not think any one trainer has all the answers. I think we each have a different approach, each have it "a little bit right". My old boss said he learned as much from the novices as he did the pros. There is no set in stone rules of how to train your dog. Each trainer is different and so is each dog.

WE taught retrievers to retrieve. No bribes were ever used. It was done for love..they worked for praise.

 

[Doberluv]

Well, yes, I was using myself as an example of what NOT to do.

Count me in. Can I join the club? I could give you so many examples of what not to do that I do do (LOL) that your head would swim. I've resorted to things that I know darn well I shouldn't or that I regret afterwards. And then there are those things which I know better but have not kicked the habit of the wrong way. It seems an ongoing process to kick some of those habits. And the things that I haven't learned yet. I love learning new tips and stuff that I get right off this board. Every little new thing helps.