Your Definition of Ethics
- Thread starter lakotasong
- Start date
savethebulliedbreeds said:
It was a joke.
In a perfect world, if only ethical breeders where allowed to breed then you wouldn’t have to worry about any dogs being in shelters.
But élasse, this is not a perfect world....so either "you" are the cause of the problem or the solutions to it.
"you" doesn't specify any certain person, it's all of us in general.
tHESE WERE MY THOUGHTS
Most all dogs that are now reconized by the AKC have at one time come from mixes ie. ACD. Many dont know that it has Dalmation in it's background too as well as others. It has been around since 1840 but was only reconized by AKC in 1980. Does that mean that the ones before 1980 were mutts ? lol.
My take is that breeding is ones choice as is what type car we own and so on.Ethical breeders to me are those who dont!!!!!!!!!
Most all dogs that are now reconized by the AKC have at one time come from mixes ie. ACD. Many dont know that it has Dalmation in it's background too as well as others. It has been around since 1840 but was only reconized by AKC in 1980. Does that mean that the ones before 1980 were mutts ? lol.
My take is that breeding is ones choice as is what type car we own and so on.Ethical breeders to me are those who dont!!!!!!!!!
I'm not here to stir the pot, I'm here to educate, meet some new folks and learn from others' experiences (a good breeder NEVER stops learning and NEVER thinks they know it all). You don't like what you hear from me, so you say I'm stirring the pot. It's humorous, I've dealt with this before.
And the only ones I see getting worked up are the ones that aren't following set codes of ethics and do not like being told the truth. Old saying: truth hurts.
If you think you've "worked me up," you are sadly mistaken. I am passionate and hold strongly to my beliefs, because I put the welfare of dogs above all else.
And the only ones I see getting worked up are the ones that aren't following set codes of ethics and do not like being told the truth. Old saying: truth hurts.
If you think you've "worked me up," you are sadly mistaken. I am passionate and hold strongly to my beliefs, because I put the welfare of dogs above all else.
I have seen the whole "even responsible breeders add to the overpopulation and take homes away from dogs in shelters" comment a few times and I will now give my two cents on it.
I do not feel the statement is accurate.
Responsible breeders get many inquiries, and often refer people to rescue if they are simply looking for a generic pet.
People that purchase from truly responsible breeders...
a) want a dog with a known temperament/health history so they know the dog will be a sound, healthy dog for their family (children especially).
b) a dog to show or compete with in sports that require a certain work ethic or physical ability that a shelter or rescue dog cannot fulfill.
c) a dog to prove, test and eventually breed to help continue betterment of the breed that they are devoted to.
Responsible breeders sell dogs (pet puppies and show/work prospects) to people that need something specific and something sound.
I do not feel responsible breeders take the homes of shelter dogs.
I do not feel the statement is accurate.
Responsible breeders get many inquiries, and often refer people to rescue if they are simply looking for a generic pet.
People that purchase from truly responsible breeders...
a) want a dog with a known temperament/health history so they know the dog will be a sound, healthy dog for their family (children especially).
b) a dog to show or compete with in sports that require a certain work ethic or physical ability that a shelter or rescue dog cannot fulfill.
c) a dog to prove, test and eventually breed to help continue betterment of the breed that they are devoted to.
Responsible breeders sell dogs (pet puppies and show/work prospects) to people that need something specific and something sound.
I do not feel responsible breeders take the homes of shelter dogs.
These arguments tend to go in circles lol. If we keep it respectful, this thread will be more productive.
For what it's worth, this is my opinion on ethical breeding:
-Have health tests done on dog planned to be bred.
-Dog should pass a temperment test.
-Thorough health guarantee on pups.
-Competition and titles preferable.
-The breeder rescues.
-DOES WHAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE DOG AND PUPPIES, AND
UNDERSTANDS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF BREEDING.
For what it's worth, this is my opinion on ethical breeding:
-Have health tests done on dog planned to be bred.
-Dog should pass a temperment test.
-Thorough health guarantee on pups.
-Competition and titles preferable.
-The breeder rescues.
-DOES WHAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE DOG AND PUPPIES, AND
UNDERSTANDS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF BREEDING.
Last edited:
S
How is it not accurate? Anyone who breeds dogs adds to the overpopulation problem and that is a fact. Just because you are responsible about breeding doesn't mean that you don't contribute to the problem. Anyone who doesn't see this is blind.
If you have a basket with 10 oranges in it and a "responsible" person adds 10 more does that mean that the basket still only had 10 oranges?
I think not....it has 20. It doesn't matter who the hell put the oranges in the basket.....there is still 20. Get my point. I don't think that there is many people that will argue this fact.
Not only that but you speak so much about following "the code of ethics" yet you told someone in another forum that this one person breeds great dogs that were mutts? You confuse me to no end.
If you have a basket with 10 oranges in it and a "responsible" person adds 10 more does that mean that the basket still only had 10 oranges?
I think not....it has 20. It doesn't matter who the hell put the oranges in the basket.....there is still 20. Get my point. I don't think that there is many people that will argue this fact.
Not only that but you speak so much about following "the code of ethics" yet you told someone in another forum that this one person breeds great dogs that were mutts? You confuse me to no end.
Let's face it . Dog owners have doubled since I bred my Goldens... At the end of my 40 years of breeding , when I didn't have enough pups to sell, or if they were working " parents" I'd recommend rescue. I was not a BYB! Question me if you want to . I was very proud of my line and of my ethics. In my day , it was through clubs and word of mouth. Practically all my pups were sold before whelping.
This has been an interesting thread.
I'm going to post what I think is ethical for Lab breeders. Most goes for breeders of other breeds too, but some things are specifically for Lab enthusiasts.
My list is very, very long and seems to be always growing or being revised. If I ever breed, I will follow this list. There are more things that I believe are attributed to an ethical breeder, but it is late and I am not remembering everything right now
HEALTH:
- Fair or better rating of hips by the OFA (or equal certification from PennHip)
- Normal elbows as determined by OFA
- Clear cardiac test with certification from OFA
- Normal thyroid test with certification from OFA
- Clear eyes from CERF/Optigen/AVCO
- Free of CNM, or if a carrier, bred to a dog free of CNM
- Must be fed a raw diet (not neccessarily to do with ethics, but I won't by from a breeder who feeds kibble)
- Free of vaccinations/minimal vaccinations but agrees to do no vaccines on my pup (again, this has nothing to do with ethics but moreso for my beliefs of canine health)
TEMPERMENT/TRAINING:
- Dogs must have a temperment true to the Labrador breed
- Absolutely no aggression towards anything - animal or human
- Dogs must be in-tune to owners during training sessions
- Dogs must be eager to please
- Dogs must be gentle with children and young/small animals
- Dogs must have an upbeat, over exhuberant attitude towards life
- Dogs should not be wary of strangers
WORKING ABILITY:
- All dogs should be able to work. Titles are not neccessary if you can prove to all buyers that the dog is able to work by having them out in the field with them. If this cannot be done, hunting titles should be obtained.
- A dog should not be bred if they do not have interest in field work. Dogs that had to have the "desire" to work trained into them should not be bred. Period.
CONFORMATION:
- Dogs should stay as true to a Labrador as possible. I do not like to see a 95 tub in the show ring as much as I don't like to see a greyhound-looking Lab in the field. Common sense and general knowledge of the breed standard is all that's needed.
- CH titles and points are great, but dual-purpose Labradors are few and far between, and I would much rather see a Lab that can work vs. a Lab that excels in the breed ring.
OWNER/BREEDER:
- Should not physically abuse dogs - this includes during training sessions
- Should not yell at dogs for punishment except when out of their control (like when one of them ruins an expensive piece of furniture )
- Should have a gentle but firm hand when giving commands
- Should be/should have been actively involved in rescue work of their breed or of all breeds. There is no exception for this one. Do not add to the population without helping bring it down.
- Must breed their bitches and studs only to dogs/breeders that meet the criteria in this list
And ... good luck to me in ever finding a breeder that meets all of this! This is why I am involved mostly in rescue, so much simpler
I'm going to post what I think is ethical for Lab breeders. Most goes for breeders of other breeds too, but some things are specifically for Lab enthusiasts.
My list is very, very long and seems to be always growing or being revised. If I ever breed, I will follow this list. There are more things that I believe are attributed to an ethical breeder, but it is late and I am not remembering everything right now
HEALTH:
- Fair or better rating of hips by the OFA (or equal certification from PennHip)
- Normal elbows as determined by OFA
- Clear cardiac test with certification from OFA
- Normal thyroid test with certification from OFA
- Clear eyes from CERF/Optigen/AVCO
- Free of CNM, or if a carrier, bred to a dog free of CNM
- Must be fed a raw diet (not neccessarily to do with ethics, but I won't by from a breeder who feeds kibble)
- Free of vaccinations/minimal vaccinations but agrees to do no vaccines on my pup (again, this has nothing to do with ethics but moreso for my beliefs of canine health)
TEMPERMENT/TRAINING:
- Dogs must have a temperment true to the Labrador breed
- Absolutely no aggression towards anything - animal or human
- Dogs must be in-tune to owners during training sessions
- Dogs must be eager to please
- Dogs must be gentle with children and young/small animals
- Dogs must have an upbeat, over exhuberant attitude towards life
- Dogs should not be wary of strangers
WORKING ABILITY:
- All dogs should be able to work. Titles are not neccessary if you can prove to all buyers that the dog is able to work by having them out in the field with them. If this cannot be done, hunting titles should be obtained.
- A dog should not be bred if they do not have interest in field work. Dogs that had to have the "desire" to work trained into them should not be bred. Period.
CONFORMATION:
- Dogs should stay as true to a Labrador as possible. I do not like to see a 95 tub in the show ring as much as I don't like to see a greyhound-looking Lab in the field. Common sense and general knowledge of the breed standard is all that's needed.
- CH titles and points are great, but dual-purpose Labradors are few and far between, and I would much rather see a Lab that can work vs. a Lab that excels in the breed ring.
OWNER/BREEDER:
- Should not physically abuse dogs - this includes during training sessions
- Should not yell at dogs for punishment except when out of their control (like when one of them ruins an expensive piece of furniture
)- Should have a gentle but firm hand when giving commands
- Should be/should have been actively involved in rescue work of their breed or of all breeds. There is no exception for this one. Do not add to the population without helping bring it down.
- Must breed their bitches and studs only to dogs/breeders that meet the criteria in this list
And ... good luck to me in ever finding a breeder that meets all of this! This is why I am involved mostly in rescue, so much simpler
R
Wiggle Butt said:
This has been an interesting thread.
I'm going to post what I think is ethical for Lab breeders. Most goes for breeders of other breeds too, but some things are specifically for Lab enthusiasts.
My list is very, very long and seems to be always growing or being revised. If I ever breed, I will follow this list. There are more things that I believe are attributed to an ethical breeder, but it is late and I am not remembering everything right now
HEALTH:
- Fair or better rating of hips by the OFA (or equal certification from PennHip)
- Normal elbows as determined by OFA
- Clear cardiac test with certification from OFA
- Normal thyroid test with certification from OFA
- Clear eyes from CERF/Optigen/AVCO
- Free of CNM, or if a carrier, bred to a dog free of CNM
- Must be fed a raw diet (not neccessarily to do with ethics, but I won't by from a breeder who feeds kibble)
- Free of vaccinations/minimal vaccinations but agrees to do no vaccines on my pup (again, this has nothing to do with ethics but moreso for my beliefs of canine health)
TEMPERMENT/TRAINING:
- Dogs must have a temperment true to the Labrador breed
- Absolutely no aggression towards anything - animal or human
- Dogs must be in-tune to owners during training sessions
- Dogs must be eager to please
- Dogs must be gentle with children and young/small animals
- Dogs must have an upbeat, over exhuberant attitude towards life
- Dogs should not be wary of strangers
WORKING ABILITY:
- All dogs should be able to work. Titles are not neccessary if you can prove to all buyers that the dog is able to work by having them out in the field with them. If this cannot be done, hunting titles should be obtained.
- A dog should not be bred if they do not have interest in field work. Dogs that had to have the "desire" to work trained into them should not be bred. Period.
CONFORMATION:
- Dogs should stay as true to a Labrador as possible. I do not like to see a 95 tub in the show ring as much as I don't like to see a greyhound-looking Lab in the field. Common sense and general knowledge of the breed standard is all that's needed.
- CH titles and points are great, but dual-purpose Labradors are few and far between, and I would much rather see a Lab that can work vs. a Lab that excels in the breed ring.
OWNER/BREEDER:
- Should not physically abuse dogs - this includes during training sessions
- Should not yell at dogs for punishment except when out of their control (like when one of them ruins an expensive piece of furniture )
- Should have a gentle but firm hand when giving commands
- Should be/should have been actively involved in rescue work of their breed or of all breeds. There is no exception for this one. Do not add to the population without helping bring it down.
- Must breed their bitches and studs only to dogs/breeders that meet the criteria in this list
And ... good luck to me in ever finding a breeder that meets all of this! This is why I am involved mostly in rescue, so much simpler
I'm going to post what I think is ethical for Lab breeders. Most goes for breeders of other breeds too, but some things are specifically for Lab enthusiasts.
My list is very, very long and seems to be always growing or being revised. If I ever breed, I will follow this list. There are more things that I believe are attributed to an ethical breeder, but it is late and I am not remembering everything right now
HEALTH:
- Fair or better rating of hips by the OFA (or equal certification from PennHip)
- Normal elbows as determined by OFA
- Clear cardiac test with certification from OFA
- Normal thyroid test with certification from OFA
- Clear eyes from CERF/Optigen/AVCO
- Free of CNM, or if a carrier, bred to a dog free of CNM
- Must be fed a raw diet (not neccessarily to do with ethics, but I won't by from a breeder who feeds kibble)
- Free of vaccinations/minimal vaccinations but agrees to do no vaccines on my pup (again, this has nothing to do with ethics but moreso for my beliefs of canine health)
TEMPERMENT/TRAINING:
- Dogs must have a temperment true to the Labrador breed
- Absolutely no aggression towards anything - animal or human
- Dogs must be in-tune to owners during training sessions
- Dogs must be eager to please
- Dogs must be gentle with children and young/small animals
- Dogs must have an upbeat, over exhuberant attitude towards life
- Dogs should not be wary of strangers
WORKING ABILITY:
- All dogs should be able to work. Titles are not neccessary if you can prove to all buyers that the dog is able to work by having them out in the field with them. If this cannot be done, hunting titles should be obtained.
- A dog should not be bred if they do not have interest in field work. Dogs that had to have the "desire" to work trained into them should not be bred. Period.
CONFORMATION:
- Dogs should stay as true to a Labrador as possible. I do not like to see a 95 tub in the show ring as much as I don't like to see a greyhound-looking Lab in the field. Common sense and general knowledge of the breed standard is all that's needed.
- CH titles and points are great, but dual-purpose Labradors are few and far between, and I would much rather see a Lab that can work vs. a Lab that excels in the breed ring.
OWNER/BREEDER:
- Should not physically abuse dogs - this includes during training sessions
- Should not yell at dogs for punishment except when out of their control (like when one of them ruins an expensive piece of furniture
)- Should have a gentle but firm hand when giving commands
- Should be/should have been actively involved in rescue work of their breed or of all breeds. There is no exception for this one. Do not add to the population without helping bring it down.
- Must breed their bitches and studs only to dogs/breeders that meet the criteria in this list
And ... good luck to me in ever finding a breeder that meets all of this! This is why I am involved mostly in rescue, so much simpler
If I were looking for a Labrador Retriever, you are the sort of breeder I would like to find (or recommend).
Your breed is lucky to have people like you. They are the ones who STEWARD THEIR BREED, and preserve it for the future.
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JFrick said:
So I guess the dogs wake up one day and say "I think I'll start showing myself". Is there not money involved with dog shows? Greed goes with anything involving money. Not to mention a blue ribbon.....
In my opinion, yes it is GREED......Your right, I know nothing, nothing at all.
In my opinion, yes it is GREED......Your right, I know nothing, nothing at all.
Told you you know nothing about this.
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That's not the way your post read.
And no, I don't want a mutt. I want my chosen breed. I would not be a candidate for a mutt or shelter dog; therefore when I go and buy a dog from a responsible breeder (or breed one myself), the shelter dog is not losing a home in ME...because I was not going there to begin with! If everyone thought like you did it would be a very sad world because we would no longer have the wonderful breeds that we do.
I am sorry for the dogs that land in shelters and that many of them do not get out...it is very sad and tragic; but those of us who choose well-bred purebred dogs should not be faulted for this. I always tell people that if they just want a companion for the family, then they should consider a shelter or rescue dog first. Not everyone needs a purebred puppy; some of us, however, live and breathe to maintain a breed we adore.
And no, I don't want a mutt. I want my chosen breed. I would not be a candidate for a mutt or shelter dog; therefore when I go and buy a dog from a responsible breeder (or breed one myself), the shelter dog is not losing a home in ME...because I was not going there to begin with! If everyone thought like you did it would be a very sad world because we would no longer have the wonderful breeds that we do.
I am sorry for the dogs that land in shelters and that many of them do not get out...it is very sad and tragic; but those of us who choose well-bred purebred dogs should not be faulted for this. I always tell people that if they just want a companion for the family, then they should consider a shelter or rescue dog first. Not everyone needs a purebred puppy; some of us, however, live and breathe to maintain a breed we adore.