Shai
& the Muttly Crew
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^Agree, and stated more eloquently than I would have managed.
That said I'm not rigid about it.
What is your definition of a working dog?
- Thread starter Saeleofu
- Start date
^Agree, and stated more eloquently than I would have managed.
That said I'm not rigid about it.
BostonBanker
Active Member
I used to vehemently insist that a working dog was only a dog that did a job - pretty similar to the first definition on this thread. Some variation; I mean, if you consider Sara's dogs working dogs (I hope it is okay to call them out since they were already mentioned), then I would say the definition also includes all sport dogs belonging to professional trainers, since going out and competing is something that is required for their business.
But I think part of the reason I got so firm about it is that it seemed the people arguing that they had "real working dogs" were implying that those dogs have more value than non-working dogs, or were better creatures for it. Therefore it was fun to point out that their dogs weren't "real" working dogs by everyone's definition.
Now - I don't care what you call your dog. Call it a working dog if you work agility and that makes you happy. Call it a sporting dog if you train your butt off at home and never go to a competition. Call them all pets or companions. A rose by any other name and all that. Whether my dogs are sport dogs, working dogs, or parasites feeding off of me, I am comfortable with the knowledge that they are every bit as important as any other dog.
But I think part of the reason I got so firm about it is that it seemed the people arguing that they had "real working dogs" were implying that those dogs have more value than non-working dogs, or were better creatures for it. Therefore it was fun to point out that their dogs weren't "real" working dogs by everyone's definition.
Now - I don't care what you call your dog. Call it a working dog if you work agility and that makes you happy. Call it a sporting dog if you train your butt off at home and never go to a competition. Call them all pets or companions. A rose by any other name and all that. Whether my dogs are sport dogs, working dogs, or parasites feeding off of me, I am comfortable with the knowledge that they are every bit as important as any other dog.
Love this. So much.
I don't really see what the point of starting this thread was if you're just going to argue the opinions of others that you asked for
Romy
Taxiderpy
Part of the reason it's important to understand what people are saying when they say "working dog" is that trait is often touted as a selling point or justification for breeding a specific animal.
I've seen plenty of people try to market puppies with zero working history in the past 5-10 generations of their pedigree as out of "working dogs". And when questioned further give justification such as, "Well, his grandpa did schutzhund tracking. I think. That's what his parent's breeder told me anyway." And that's it. *facepalm*
The sad part is when law enforcement agencies get suckered into investing in these prospects out of unproven lineage and end up with weak nervy dogs that have to be washed from the program.
I've seen plenty of people try to market puppies with zero working history in the past 5-10 generations of their pedigree as out of "working dogs". And when questioned further give justification such as, "Well, his grandpa did schutzhund tracking. I think. That's what his parent's breeder told me anyway." And that's it. *facepalm*
The sad part is when law enforcement agencies get suckered into investing in these prospects out of unproven lineage and end up with weak nervy dogs that have to be washed from the program.
Shai
& the Muttly Crew
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Strongly disagree with this. Get a talented dog out in the field or on stock and even just watching another dog work plus their own genetic instinct can accomplish some amazing things with no real "training." Yeah the skill set is not going to be as high class or versatile as a more highly trained dog but they can still be downright effective.
Anyone who watched our retriever/shepherd mix breed move range feeder calves through a tight feed lot would have sworn he was trained but he had instinct and paid attention. Didn't even know how to sit on cue.
Beanie
Clicker Cult Coordinator
+1 to all this!
All this thread did was make me think how much I just don't even care. I feel like RTH's definition might be closest to mine, what's the intention of the dog's breeding? But even then I'm just not sure I can muster up the emotion to care all that much about saying THAT dog is but THAT dog isn't. I think it's a very loose, vague term that I can't be bothered to worry about nailing down.
When my dogs die I am not going to whip out a measuring stick and measure their life against if they "really" worked or if they were "just" playing or even "just" laying on the couch. But that's just me.
I also agree that working dogs do not necessarily need to be trained. A radio station co-worker bought a GSP puppy, and they never trained her to be a gun dog, but she would go hunting with the husband and was apparently a great dog in the field. But they didn't do any gun dog training with her... she just came that way. Pretty cool.
Romy
Taxiderpy
That's one of those things that is going to vary by breed and job too. A correct LGD should need zero training in order to be an effective livestock or estate guardian. Most herding dogs will need something, at the very least to establish communication between the shepherd and their dog partner so that the dog knows where the sheep are supposed to be put.
Hunting dogs could go either way. Retrievers typically need some training to hand signals and things for when they're out in the field. A sighthound needs a solid recall so you can get them back after you've slipped them on game, etc.
Romy
Taxiderpy
And I will say that I don't care much either way what people call their dogs. I do care when it comes down to puppy shopping or looking for lines to blend with my own.
Basically it's important to find out what that person's definition of working is, to make sure you're both on the same page. I run into the same issue with people having different definitions for "drive" and "drivey". To some people dogs with lots of energy are drivey. To me, it's a dog with a lot of intensity for a specific activity? I'm bad at describing it, lol. But to me low key dogs with strong off switches can certainly have powerful prey drive, sometimes more so than a hyper dog.
Basically it's important to find out what that person's definition of working is, to make sure you're both on the same page. I run into the same issue with people having different definitions for "drive" and "drivey". To some people dogs with lots of energy are drivey. To me, it's a dog with a lot of intensity for a specific activity? I'm bad at describing it, lol. But to me low key dogs with strong off switches can certainly have powerful prey drive, sometimes more so than a hyper dog.
Yea, I can dig it. I mean... the dog doesn't know that it was "just" playing instead of doing a "real" job.
SaraB
New Member
I know my dogs are working dogs. They have to do their job every day, I obviously have their well-being and health as a top priority, but the reason I have them? To do their job. It may not be a traditional job in the sense that herding or hunting is, however, their performance is directly related to how I earn the money to pay for their care. I would not have half of the dogs I do if they weren't suited for their job.
As far as the breeding issue goes, I don't think breeding has anything to do with it. None of my dogs were bred to be performance dogs, none were bred to catch discs. Yes, a dog bred for a specific task has a greater chance of doing that task well but that's hardly the single qualifying factor.
My definition of a working dog is whether or not their handler's livelihood is dependent on that dog doing their job. If my dogs don't preform, I'm out of a job. If a herder's dog doesn't gather the sheep, their job is dramatically increased in inefficiency and difficulty. If a police officer doesn't have their K9, drug searches are difficult and dangerous people may get away. I think you all get my point.
As far as the breeding issue goes, I don't think breeding has anything to do with it. None of my dogs were bred to be performance dogs, none were bred to catch discs. Yes, a dog bred for a specific task has a greater chance of doing that task well but that's hardly the single qualifying factor.
My definition of a working dog is whether or not their handler's livelihood is dependent on that dog doing their job. If my dogs don't preform, I'm out of a job. If a herder's dog doesn't gather the sheep, their job is dramatically increased in inefficiency and difficulty. If a police officer doesn't have their K9, drug searches are difficult and dangerous people may get away. I think you all get my point.
Beanie
Clicker Cult Coordinator
I feel where you're coming from, I can agree with this. I don't know that it's as much as the "definition" matching exactly so much as the intentions and, of course, the dog itself, the lineage involved. I think describing it is part of the problem haha. It's kind of a feeling? Just an evaluation? There was a lady around here with a "performance puppy" sheltie and I was like "...no." But my expectations from performance are quite a bit different than hers. I'm not positive if we were just talking about expectations if we would come to that conclusion without me actually evaluating the dog. It's a tough one.
Part of what makes seeking out lines such a PITA. =P
I still see a lot of that. Not so much here per say but....
Anyways, it doesn't really matter what people call their dogs or if they think they're way more hardcore and cool than mine.
But meh, I do tend to think of working and sport as separate things. And working = a dog playing a vital role in someone's livelihood or daily life. I don't think sporting dogs and working dogs are totally exclusive. And yeah, I call doing my nosework or agility 'working the dogs' even thought I don't think of it as work. Yeah the mechanics of Summer finding birch or a bomb dog looking for bombs are similar but one is for fun and competition and the other is because there's a real need for the dog to do it.
I don't really see what the point of starting this thread was if you're just going to argue the opinions of others that you asked for
Really? It's called conversation. People have been whining lately about not having many topics since they're all in massive threads. So here I make a topic that apparently at least some people are interested in, and I get called out for making a topic that's pointless because I'm trying to discuss. If it was just a list of what other people think and nobody commented an anyone else's comments, that's be pretty boring, and not much of a conversation. I just don't know anymore, damned if you do, damnedif you don't
This is true, I can see this happening more with some things than with others. The comment I replied to initially made it sound like the dog was just there because it was fun, not that the dog was actually doing anything. But I can see this happening, too.
You're not required to post in every thread, so if you don't care you don't have to discuss. It's an interesting topic to me, so I choose to discuss. There are plenty of threads I don't care about, so I just don't post in them.
Just to be clear, I don't think my dogs are better than anyone else's dogs, or that Logan is better than Gavroche because he works and Gavroche doesn't. As a matter of fact, Gavroche is my heart dog, so he's sort of my favorite. Gavroche doesn't even do much for sports anymore besides coursing, and that's okay by me. I had a thought pop into my head while I was taking a crap, so I posted it. Because that's what forums are for.
This is what I was trying to get at. To me, it's confusing when someone calls a sporting dog a working dog, or whatever other things they call it. If it's a working dog, it's a working dog. If it's a sporting dog, it's a sporting dog. And they're NOT mutually exclusive. I don't consider either of my dogs sport dogs because we simply don't show often - once a year, two or three times a year if we're lucky. I wish I could show more, but right now I can't. I also typically think of sport dogs as doing agility, dock diving, disc, etc even though obedience and rally are sports, too. It's just what comes to mind - maybe because they're more physically demanding, I don't know.
I think that's a good point, too. Sure, if Logan hadn't worked out as a service dog, I would have kept him. But if I didn't need a service dog, I would not have sought out another dog at the time (I'd still have Logan), and when it was time for another dog, I would have looked for a dog with different traits (most notably, size. Logan's the perfect size for what I need, but for a dog that's not working for me I'd prefer smaller or larger - Koolie sized or Dane sized). Coat is another one - if I would have got the standard poodle I was searching for, I wouldn't be showing it, because there's no way I could work a poodle in a show clip. I just couldn't - some people could make it work, but not me. If I wanted to show a poodle, I wouldn't get one to be my service dog.
Really? It's called conversation. People have been whining lately about not having many topics since they're all in massive threads. So here I make a topic that apparently at least some people are interested in, and I get called out for making a topic that's pointless because I'm trying to discuss. I just don't know anymore
I was reading it as you correcting other people for having a differing opinion.
krissy
New Member
To this same end... greyhounds used to be used for hunting. I mean true hunting. In fact, in Spain they still use galagos (Spanish greyhounds) to hunt and make a living (we will not get into the horrible things they do to the dogs at the end of the hunting season). But the dogs are not trained to hunt. It is pure instinct. So. Is a hunting greyhound belonging to a hunter (by profession or necessity, not recreation) a working dog? I would argue yes, but it doesn't fit into the "trained" component.
I can't really be held liable for how you perceive it. Especially when you posting what you assumed I meant got other people riled up about it - when it wasn't at all what I meant.
Oookay then...
Just my opinion, of course: a working dog is such if it does a useful trait for humanity that does not involve competition only. The difference to me personally is whether the dog is doing a stylized version of something, being judged against others or against lofty standard - or instead doing it as a necessary task with no competition whatsoever.
So, to me, a dog who has done herding trials or has been tested on sheep, but does not actually live on a farm, never gets a chance to work sheep as a daily job, and spends 99.9999% of its life as a pet or an agility dog or a flyball dog, that animal is more of a sport dog than a working dog. Same with hunt trials versus a dog who goes out every season and brings home a big pile of birds for the hunter's table. Lure coursing versus running down actual game for the owner, dogs sniffing out bombs in the Middle East for government contractors or police dogs versus protection sport dogs, etc.
For some breeds, I'm not even sure that they can be "worked" anymore under my definition - I wouldn't know what to call a dog who was born and bred to race the Iditarod, but would never in its life be called upon to haul mail or pull freight in any other way than in a formal competition. But also, under my definition the two categories can overlap, and I don't see the problem with that. To me, a Bracco who brings home a lot of game for its owner is a working dog even if it's also a very stylish and competitive dog at hunt trials.
Personally, the definitions do actually have some weight. I fully admit that I am a nostalgic person, and I do really appreciate, despite all the intense drama it brings to certain breeds, when I see, say, a Border Collie herding sheep for its farmer in Britain, and that dog will never get a ribbon for it, it's just doing what needs done on the farm. I'm glad people are preserving that, even if it can come out in snobby or grating ways.
So, to me, a dog who has done herding trials or has been tested on sheep, but does not actually live on a farm, never gets a chance to work sheep as a daily job, and spends 99.9999% of its life as a pet or an agility dog or a flyball dog, that animal is more of a sport dog than a working dog. Same with hunt trials versus a dog who goes out every season and brings home a big pile of birds for the hunter's table. Lure coursing versus running down actual game for the owner, dogs sniffing out bombs in the Middle East for government contractors or police dogs versus protection sport dogs, etc.
For some breeds, I'm not even sure that they can be "worked" anymore under my definition - I wouldn't know what to call a dog who was born and bred to race the Iditarod, but would never in its life be called upon to haul mail or pull freight in any other way than in a formal competition. But also, under my definition the two categories can overlap, and I don't see the problem with that. To me, a Bracco who brings home a lot of game for its owner is a working dog even if it's also a very stylish and competitive dog at hunt trials.
Personally, the definitions do actually have some weight. I fully admit that I am a nostalgic person, and I do really appreciate, despite all the intense drama it brings to certain breeds, when I see, say, a Border Collie herding sheep for its farmer in Britain, and that dog will never get a ribbon for it, it's just doing what needs done on the farm. I'm glad people are preserving that, even if it can come out in snobby or grating ways.
That's basically how I see it.
Also, if you use a dog for hunting, and you hunt for sport, I still see it as working. I mean something had to be done with the dead animals you bring home, whether you eat them or mount them or whatever you do with them. The dog isn't in it purely for the sport, it's helping you - even though YOU are in it for the sport. It's hunting trials/tests and lure coursing that I classify as sport for the dog.
Eh, I don't know if that's really what I'd call "snobby," but I AM happy it's being preserved in some form. Of all working dogs, I think a lot of herders are probably some of the most under-appreciated. A lot of times the breeds that are herders are split into working line and show line, and the show line people often treat working line dogs as lesser (where working means herding). The dog "just" sits in the field all day herding sheep, where these dogs "get" to sit on a grooming table all day being prepped for shows. It's more dramatic in some breeds than others, of course. I'm glad collies don't seem to be as divided as a lot of other breeds (border collies come to mind).
Versatility is incredibly important to ME and is still rewarded by collie clubs (and UKC to an extent with the Total Dog program), but I just don't see it being that important to most people/most breeds anymore, and I think that's kind of sad. Sure, a working dog is great, a pretty dog is great, a dog that can make a good house pet is great, and dog that excel at obedience or some other sport is great - but when you get ALL of those things in one dog, that's what I find exceptional. That's why I value Logan's single Total Dog award over all his other stuff, because breeding-wise, THAT is what is important to me. I love that his dad was a working dog and he came from herding lines, but I also love that I can just chill on the couch with my dog, too, despite being a working dog.
When you get right down to it - it's similar to heritage livestock. Sure, they're not the best milk producers by quantity alone, and they're not the best meat producers by quantity alone, but when you balance quantity, efficiency, hardiness, and quality - then you have it.
Romy
Taxiderpy
SAR is one of those jobs that falls in the same category. SAR teams are generally composed of people who do other stuff for a living and SAR as a volunteer fun thing in their free time. It's kind of an all consuming hobby, but nobody makes their living at it. The dogs who assist the searchers however are performing a vital and life saving service when they are out on missions, and their training is held to an extremely high standard because of the high stakes.
It doesn't apply equally to all types of working dogs, but one thing I gauge it by is, what are the consequences of the dog not performing its job correctly or at all?
In some cases human life can be lost (police K9, explosive detection, SAR, water rescue, service dog, etc.). In others, people's livelihoods are adversely affected (farmers, some hunters, some mushers, etc.)
In others people aren't directly put in danger or lose income, but they are still inconvenienced. Like hobby farmers that have a dog to guard or herd their stock, some mushers, some hunters, etc.