well bred vs. not so much. how it affects physical appearance

Fran101

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#1
I was thinking about this because of the "breeds I dislike" thread and it has me wondering, other than the obvious changes in temperament. what does being badly bred/overbred do to a breeds appearance?

as for chihuahuas, the difference between a badly bred and well bred dogs are astonishing. i mean, chihuahuas themselves vary SO MUCH as to what they look like

and i think the reason is because they are so popular

but from what ive noticed, petstore chihuahuas are much leggier and with "deer heads"


and show chihuahuas



I just think its amazing that a breed can be so diverse yet still SOO recognizable,

like, look at the taco bell dog! the most famous chihuahua of them all




just something I thought was interesting, what do you think? what are some other breeds that this can be seen?
:popcorn:
 

~Jessie~

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#2
I was thinking about this yesterday... chihuahuas are the 12th most popular breed, but most of the ones I see look SO different than they're supposed to look. I don't really consider the ones that look so far from the standard to be chihuahuas... they just look and act sooo much different.
 

Fran101

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#3
I was thinking about this yesterday... chihuahuas are the 12th most popular breed, but most of the ones I see look SO different than they're supposed to look. I don't really consider the ones that look so far from the standard to be chihuahuas... they just look and act sooo much different.
exactly. the shaking, snarling, oversensitive, crazy little guys most people recognize are chihuahuas are really the opposite of what the breed is supposed to be. Ive met a couple of them who were too scared to even walk on the ground next to their owners, they HAD to be carried.
 
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#4
There are two things that really change in a yorkies appearance based on breeding:

The biggest difference you notice is size... badly bred ones are either way too small or way too big.

Second, poorly bred ones often break coat too early and loose too much color or never break coat at all. They can break coat anytime between 1 and 3 years old, that is when the dark black cotton appearance changes to a steel blue silkier appearance. You will sometimes see puppies coats breaking very early, you notice it first on top of the head usually and these dogs often turn very light, basically silver.

Puppymills especially have started to mix Silky Terriers and Yorkies a lot and this changes the appearance of the face and the structure of the body, but that obviously goes beyond being poorly bred, since it is really a mix breed, but it is something to consider because most people who have these dogs think they are purebred yorkies because that is how the petstore sold them.
 

joce

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#5
Second, poorly bred ones often break coat too early and loose too much color or never break coat at all. They can break coat anytime between 1 and 3 years old, that is when the dark black cotton appearance changes to a steel blue silkier appearance. You will sometimes see puppies coats breaking very early, you notice it first on top of the head usually and these dogs often turn very light, basically silver.

.

This is why I am so torn on getting a yorkie! My cousin get a mill pup before we knew better and she is the cutest thing even at tenish. Still has the dark coat. I look at well bred ones and think -not so cute:cool: So I am just waiting till something falls in my lap basically now:p

There is a huge difference in well bred chis and not so well bred chis here. I swear many are those little rat terriers but they swear its a chi.
 

Grab

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#7
We have a lot of BYB in town here. I've done two sets of OFA xrays in the several years I've worked at the vet here.

The BYB Chows here are so vastly different than well bred ones. They almost look like mixes...very thin legs, tiny feet. Long pointy noses. Taller, more pointy ears. And many times a not great temperament. Someone actually asked if my dog was a different "type" of Chow than the ones in town....
 

Snark

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#8
My sister adopted a Rottie from a shelter, she had poor conformation but her temperament was wonderful. She was just the sweetest dog and loved people - even the UPS guys. :D
 

Laurelin

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#10
I think toys deviate a lot more than is typical. Part probably has to do with them being the puppymillers favorite breeds. Part I think is the toy shape is already pretty exaggerated (some more than others) when breeding goes out the window they tend to look weirder than most dogs. In most toy breeds if I don't LOVE the way a dog looks, then I probably dislike the look a lot. Whereas I can appreciate both show, field, and byb bred goldens looks wise. Same with many other breeds.

The badly bred paps vary from almost sheltiesh in looks (20+ lbs) to chihuahua looking (2-3 lbs). Typically the face gets either long and skinny like a sheltie or super domed and kind of bug eyed. There's a LOT of severe underbites in BYB/mill papillons which is weird because you NEVER see underbites at all in good lines. Also most badly bred paps have no fringe at all. Not just a little fringe (a little fringe can be acceptable) but none. Often ears are the wrong shape too. Often they have double coats. I wonder a lot if shelties, poms, and chihuahuas are being crossed in, honestly. They just look so different.

Some very off standard papillons are just gorgeous though. And our standard does allow for a lot of variation as is. I like the increased size of some paps. I don't like the bulging eyes, and undershot jaws though. And I like good ears in papillons- it's their trademark! Luckily most paps even if they're HUGE or tiny still have that temperament that I love and that they should have.

Examples of some of my friends' dogs (whom I still adore regardless)

Gherkin who is 3 lbs and very unusual looking. To me she looks more chi than anything. Tiny, short legged and stocky with a double coat.



And Jake who is 15+ lbs and very undershot. I know some bigger than him.



Size difference between my dogs and Jake:



Rose and Tucker:



I actually quite prefer the deerheaded chihuahuas though and the spitzy looking BYB poms to their show standard counterparts. LOL
 
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Xandra

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#11
My sister adopted a Rottie from a shelter, she had poor conformation but her temperament was wonderful. She was just the sweetest dog and loved people - even the UPS guys. :D
LOL but that's not a wonderful temperament for a Rottie!

Pet-wise, sure that's a great temperament- but Rotties are supposed to be aloof, they are a guarding breed. When we're talking in the context of breeds, a Rottie that loves everybody has a poor temperament.

A more extreme example might be a CAO that just looovess everybody and everything it meets. Would that make for a great pet, yes, but breed wise that temperament sucks.

Kinda like how my favorite of the three dogs Fran posted is the Taco Bell dog, but he is a poor quality chihuahua.
 

Laurelin

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#12
Oh and we get a lot of strange ear sets in the poorly bred ones. Up and down, sort of halfway, rose eared, etc.
 

Xandra

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#13
Right the original topic lol

German shepherds get big when they're poorly bred.

Also, their masks tend to go.
 

Toller_08

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#14
Poorly bred Dobermans are often really tall, or just huge in general, and many of them have very snipey heads. They can get sort of a sighthoundy look to them. Or, you can get the other extreme and end up with a really mastiff-y looking Dobe. Their markings can be different too. Often poorly bred Dobermans end up with way more rust than is acceptable. The other difference I've noticed is coat length and texture. Often poorly bred Dobermans end up with a coat that is longer than normal, similar to a Rottweiler coat. There are lots of differences between well bred Dobermans and poorly bred ones. When I'm at my Dobe breeder's house, it's ridiculously easy to pick her dogs out from the BYB dogs who are visiting.

I've only met a couple of poorly bred Tollers. Both were really odd looking. One was very tall and lanky with lots of freckles in his white areas, and the other was about average size wise for a Toller but had a very boxy head with a much shorter than average nose and big round eyes. I'm absolutely sure both of those dogs were mixes, but their owners insisted they were purebred.
 

JennSLK

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#15
Emma (BYB)


Solo (Good Breeder)


Solo is a puppy and Emma an adult but you get the point.

Also there is a big difference between feild bred beagles from good breeders, and show beagles from good breeders
 

babymomma

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#17
I personally prefer the look of badly bred chi's alot better then the well bred ones. but I also hate seeing the BYB bred chi's because they come from BYB's.. Whom I despise.
That said I really dislike the look of poorly bred yorkies.. Wrong ear sets etc. Drives me nuts. Keely is from a wonderful breeder.. But she is still 1 lb over standard and twice the size of her litter mates. Sometimes things just happen even with the best of breeders. :p ..
 

Dekka

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#18
IF you are looking for a 'basis' for the change in looks. (warning science ahead) Most purebred dogs are fairly inbred (and not always in a bad way.) In breeding promotes homozygosity. Which means that for each gene a pure bred dog is more likely to carry the same two alleles. Not necessarily dominant alleles just the same ones. (this is why well bred dogs tend to reproduce themselves so well..)

Now you take BYB dogs. THey breed what ever to what ever... This puts them pretty much in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium ie, no selection pressure (duh its not like the breed via any criteria), panmixia, (breed anything to everything) etc. This means you are going to see a lot more heterozygosity. So all the traits that seem to be common in badly bred dogs are likely to be related to heterozygosity (and some compounding polygenic traits) and or (bad)dominant alleles. The traits that byb dogs have AND well bred dogs have in common are likely dominant(good) traits.
 
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colliewog

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#19
Another breed I've seen that varies GREATLY is the Cairn. The pet store ones don't look anything like the show ones ... and the show ones are (I think) of proper form.
 

BostonBanker

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#20
I actually quite prefer the deerheaded chihuahuas though and the spitzy looking BYB poms to their show standard counterparts. LOL
Me too. There are actually a number of breeds that I prefer the non-show look in. Along with poms and chis, German shepherds are actually the first that comes to mind. While I do like the look of the working bred ones, I've also met quite a few BYB or farm-bred ones that I loved both the look and the temperament of.
 

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