Totally Overstimulated Outside

Elrohwen

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#1
Sorry for the length! I wanted to give enough details.

I am struggling so much with Watson lately. He has been through a lot of changes since May, including having my husband become primary caretaker while he's home, traveling with me to a new apartment some weeks, and dropping all training classes.

I am finding it so difficult to connect with him outdoors. Any place remotely resembling a field or forest (area around the apartment building, college campus, park, residential neighborhood, etc) can cause him to lose his little doggy mind. I've seen this behavior from him before, but not to this extent.

He goes way over threshold - his eyes glaze over, he pants like crazy, and he quarters frantically on the end of the leash. Usually he is sniffing for wildlife, but sometimes he gets so frantic that he's not even taking in scents or actually tracking anything. If he sees anything interesting, like a squirrel, he starts screaming.

He will actually listen to cues when he's like this, but I can tell he's still not there. He will sit when asked, and look vaguely at me, but not actually make eye contact, and his ability to hold any position is about 3 seconds before he's lunging and possibly shrieking again. He will take treats, but again he's obviously doing it because it's conditioned, not because he actually cares that I have treats. I can reward with a "go sniff" cue, but I wonder if this just amps him up more. I'm pretty sure it's overstimulation rather than anxiety, but I'm sure they are probably very similar in their physiological effects.

He's not like this all the time. I can still walk him around our house and he's normal (a bit overstimulated, but not on another planet), and in certain areas he's fine, but his moments of totally checking out are becoming more frequent and aren't getting better with continued exposure to the places that cause it. I can't just back away from the trigger to work under threshold, because the entire environment is the trigger.

I'm at a loss for what to do. The only thing that seems to help is stopping and waiting him out until he's able to make actual eye contact with me and relax a tiny bit (this can take 10min, and needs to be repeated over and over). I'm not sure if that's really the most effective thing, and it doesn't seem to be working well. Sometimes we can walk until he's too tired to be frantic, but there must be a better way.

I can try to get a video tonight or tomorrow.

I need help!
 
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#2
as long as everything up that point was done well, imprinting, training, etc. it's situations like these where I make it very clear that everything is fun and games, but i'm not asking for your attention. It's non-negotiable.
 

Elrohwen

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#3
as long as everything up that point was done well, imprinting, training, etc. it's situations like these where I make it very clear that everything is fun and games, but i'm not asking for your attention. It's non-negotiable.
Can you elaborate? What specifically would you do? I'm at a loss other than waiting him out, but even that isn't working well. Previously it did, and in most situations it still does, but not in these situations unless I'm not being patient enough.
 
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#4
It's up to you really. I don't know what other people do or how every day interactions are with their dog. Typically i've done a crap load of training before hand with everything. I would have done my recall training and proofed it. I would have done obedience stuff with building distractions in and out of the home and in all sorts of places, always keeping my dogs thresholds in mind. and I always give them plenty of opportunity to get it right all on their own and to figure things out, like waiting them out and removing distractors or removing ourselves from so many competing distractors, but if there comes a time when I think all of that has been done enough, it's a long line and prong collar. it's a correction and it's not nagging, it is big, it is impactful, and it is over.

It's not something done often or hardly ever really, but when i feel i've come to a point where it should be better, i pretty much demand it.
 

xpaeanx

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#5
So, I just want to say some things I've noticed about your post.

You say that he's had a lot of changes like a shift in primary care giver and stopping all training classes and that after that this behavior has gotten bad.
Is it possible that he's not getting enough exercise/training and all this built up energy is sort of making him loose his mind? Also I know you've previously mentioned he doesn't have great focus offleash. So based on what you've written my guess would be that he needs more mental exercise and he needs his distraction proofing built up.

Since you said he's still ok in the house and yard, what I might do is start doing training sessions in the house with the door closed, then the door open, then the front steps/stoop/deck, then the yard, then the road, then down the road, etc. If at any point he fails that sessions is over and he gets brought home to settle.

At least that's where I would start if he were my dog.
 

Elrohwen

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#6
So, I just want to say some things I've noticed about your post.

You say that he's had a lot of changes like a shift in primary care giver and stopping all training classes and that after that this behavior has gotten bad.
Is it possible that he's not getting enough exercise/training and all this built up energy is sort of making him loose his mind? Also I know you've previously mentioned he doesn't have great focus offleash. So based on what you've written my guess would be that he needs more mental exercise and he needs his distraction proofing built up.

Since you said he's still ok in the house and yard, what I might do is start doing training sessions in the house with the door closed, then the door open, then the front steps/stoop/deck, then the yard, then the road, then down the road, etc. If at any point he fails that sessions is over and he gets brought home to settle.

At least that's where I would start if he were my dog.
It's possible, but I don't think that's the cause. On the weeks that he's home with my husband, he gets the exact same exercise that I gave him. The main difference is no training classes - my husband is all about exercise and play, but he's not a trainer. Haha. My husband swears that he's great on walks and listens well, so I don't think he's letting Watson get away with being a nutcase either.

When he's up here with me, we stay with my parents and they take him on 3 walks a day before I even get home. Some are slow and easy, and usually one is on a long line where he can run around. They claim he's really well behaved for the most part, though he has come down a couple notches since the first weeks he was here as he's gotten used to the apartment complex. When I get home from work we take another walk (though shorter than what I would've given him at home, but it's his fourth walk of the day). I've been doing a lot more training in the apartment and out in the open areas of the complex, and he's doing much better. The main problem is if we try to take him anywhere else, like the college, or other residential areas (in town he's fine).

So I think he's getting the same amount of exercise he's always had overall. He's very good in the house, and just as good in most public places as he was before. It's just when he's in the woods or other open places that he's nuts. Last week we stayed in a cabin on a lake and he was insane every time we were outside. He was getting a lot of exercise and would crash every time we were in the cabin, but he will still nuts outside. The only time he was calm outside was about an hour into a hike, but the first hour was extremely frustrating.
 

Elrohwen

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#7
It's up to you really. I don't know what other people do or how every day interactions are with their dog. Typically i've done a crap load of training before hand with everything. I would have done my recall training and proofed it. I would have done obedience stuff with building distractions in and out of the home and in all sorts of places, always keeping my dogs thresholds in mind. and I always give them plenty of opportunity to get it right all on their own and to figure things out, like waiting them out and removing distractors or removing ourselves from so many competing distractors, but if there comes a time when I think all of that has been done enough, it's a long line and prong collar. it's a correction and it's not nagging, it is big, it is impactful, and it is over.

It's not something done often or hardly ever really, but when i feel i've come to a point where it should be better, i pretty much demand it.
I do have him on a prong a lot of the time now, because he was just getting uncontrollable in a harness (even front clip) and I was getting tired of him pulling until my shoulder ached. Normally he's totally fine on a harness, but not when he gets like this. I've given some mild corrections on the prong, and he doesn't seem to notice a whole lot. I'm not sure if a harsh correction would bring him down to earth or just amp him up more. He has hit the prong pretty hard on his own, and yelped loudly, but it didn't impact his behavior beyond a minute or so.
 

xpaeanx

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#8
How is he in the car when you get to new places? Can you use the car as your starting point? And have you done any crate games with him?

My next suggestion with the new info would be start crate games at home to set up criteria. Then put the crate in the car and start taking him new places with the crate as your starting point. And again just work up your distance from the car, if he fails the fun gets taken away and he goes back in the crate to settle down.
 

Elrohwen

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#9
How is he in the car when you get to new places? Can you use the car as your starting point? And have you done any crate games with him?

My next suggestion with the new info would be start crate games at home to set up criteria. Then put the crate in the car and start taking him new places with the crate as your starting point. And again just work up your distance from the car, if he fails the fun gets taken away and he goes back in the crate to settle down.
That's exactly what another dog friend suggested and I plan to try it as soon as I can get his crate from home in a couple weeks. He was crated most of the time during an obedience seminar in June and it was the best he's worked in a crowded class environment. I think the crate helped reset his brain in a way that he can't do himself while on leash. I guess impulse control is hard and the crate makes it easier because there are no other options.

He does get out of control in the car as we get to new places. Another idea I had was to go there and then just leave him in the car, as if I was going into a store without him. Teach him that he doesn't get to act on his craziness and that I'll just leave him in the car if he's obnoxious. Clearly some of this behavior starts in the car (when it's some place we're driving to) so I can work on that.
 

xpaeanx

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#10
That's exactly what another dog friend suggested and I plan to try it as soon as I can get his crate from home in a couple weeks. He was crated most of the time during an obedience seminar in June and it was the best he's worked in a crowded class environment. I think the crate helped reset his brain in a way that he can't do himself while on leash. I guess impulse control is hard and the crate makes it easier because there are no other options.

He does get out of control in the car as we get to new places. Another idea I had was to go there and then just leave him in the car, as if I was going into a store without him. Teach him that he doesn't get to act on his craziness and that I'll just leave him in the car if he's obnoxious. Clearly some of this behavior starts in the car (when it's some place we're driving to) so I can work on that.
That's basically what I did with my dog and it really helped him. Crates can be amazing tools for impulse control.

Just make sure you have a solid base for what your criteria for getting out of the crate is prior to taking him anywhere with it.
 

*blackrose

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#11
Not really much else to add, but due to the change in routine do you think it has anything to do with anxiety? May be worth starting him on a supplement, or perhaps trying a short acting anti-anxiety med (like alprazolam) to see if it helps?
 

Elrohwen

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#12
Not really much else to add, but due to the change in routine do you think it has anything to do with anxiety? May be worth starting him on a supplement, or perhaps trying a short acting anti-anxiety med (like alprazolam) to see if it helps?
I didn't really consider medication, since he's not anxious at all in the rest of life. He was a bit on edge for the first few days at the apartment, but he's been here for a few weeks now (still going home on weekends) and he's totally relaxed in the apartment now. I'll ask my vet about it and see what he thinks. Something short acting would be perfect.

I have definitely considered some over the counter stuff and tried Rescue Remedy but I didn't see a difference. I'm considering DAP or a thundershirt next. MrsBoats recommended another supplement I need to ask the vet about.

It could definitely be some underlying anxiety that is just coming out in those really stimulating places.
 

Elrohwen

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#13
Ok, here are the videos! I just kind of let him do his thing here so you could see his reactions. Let me know what you think I should be doing to get his brain back in the second situation.

First up is a pretty normal walk around the apartment complex. For a regular walk I don't care if he's sniffing and running around a bit, so I'm fine with how he was walking in this video. This was less than 5 minutes in, so he was a little bit crazier at first, but he was calming down quickly. In 10 more minutes he would've been trotting along nicely. Right before this video he saw a dog in front of us and barked once, but you can see that he listens well when I tell him "leave it" and he's responsive.

http://youtu.be/U4xFVAJyDug

And here is a video at the college about 15min later. I also gave him a 5 minute period to calm down before starting to film, but if anything he's crazier here than when we arrived. There were zero distractions other than the general environment - no squirrels, no people, no other dogs. He's completely unresponsive when I call him, though he does sit when I ask (barely). Towards the end I show what happens if I stop and wait him out - he looks at me, sits, then lays down, shrieking in frustration the whole time.

http://youtu.be/-JOjKDQoXYc

ETA: Sorry, can't seem to get these to embed.
 
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#16
I'm suspecting that your "calm down" period isn't really calming to him, rather he's just loading with anticipation even more.

He is a little amped up about something isn't he :D

I know you were video'ing to capture the behavior, but he's always getting to move forward to check things out even while checking out from you. Even though he seems a bit unresponsive overall, he's still paying a bit of attention to you. He sits when you tell him and he's not even looking your way it seems.

But like you said, it's barely, and part of that is because I think he's gotten away with that before. I think if you expected more, you'd get more. I know it sounds easier than it is.

No matter what you try, he does have to learn that sometimes, just a calm the heck down is needed. I suspect at some point, something not so nice will be applied.

I think Crate games can be great. I myself find dragging a crate around to be a little cumbersome, but a crate is a STFU zone for my dogs. I don't care what is going on around them, crates are to eat, lay down, and be quiet. At home, at hotels, at training. They usually learn that pretty easily, but I have had some that would just build and build and build with anxiety and a bang on the crate to one I actually kept a pull tab on, but that was a dog for training and time was an issue.

However you achieve it, it should be clear before venturing out, the crate must already be learned that it is a quiet place to relax. That's it and if he builds with anticipation or drive for whatever is stimulating him, you have to be able to remind him effectively at that point that it must end immediately.

If you put him in a crate for a timeout and he's just loading, it kind of defeats the purpose. So be wary of that.

I'd probably approach it similarly to "crate games", but I just use a long line and limit whatever they want to do.

I would step out of the car and make him focus on you, assuming you have taught something that means to watch, or come to you and wait or something. I wouldn't even plan on walking for a while.

Everything needs to be about focus on you. I would not be rewarding, or letting him run off to sniff for rewards or any of that, because it has been too rewarding already. Later in the game maybe, but letting them go to the distractor as a reward doesn't always work as well as it sounds on paper. I don't care if it's food, balls, toys, sticks fetch, jumping on you, whatever, but the reward and interaction comes thru you, not the environment.

I would be doing tons of OB and expect and demand the level of focus I can achieve in other places. If they check out, there is no forward, there is only backwards to the car.

For myself, I am very confident of the level of work I do outside of doing unpleasant things to my dogs, that when it is necessary, it is quick and it is effective and it is over. I say that because if my dog was great everywhere else and then looked like that on a walk in a park and was aware, but not able to focus on me, everything would be unpleasant for them, but focusing on me :)

we can go back to walks that more about them, once it's been established that when I ask for attention, I get it.

But there is a lot of work done before anything unpleasant is applied if that is even a road we need to go down. Usually it's not, but sometimes we do go there.
 

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#17
I think Crate games can be great. I myself find dragging a crate around to be a little cumbersome, but a crate is a STFU zone for my dogs. I don't care what is going on around them, crates are to eat, lay down, and be quiet. At home, at hotels, at training. They usually learn that pretty easily, but I have had some that would just build and build and build with anxiety and a bang on the crate to one I actually kept a pull tab on, but that was a dog for training and time was an issue.
I've been thinking about this one today and am in a rush right now so haven't watched the videos but wanted to add, crate games is a great idea and much of them can also be transferred to a mat as well. A mat is far more transportable so once you have things going well you can potentially switch to a mat. There's probably some help in the Control Unleashed book about mat work. This also makes me think of the book Fired Up, Frantic, and Out of Control - they discuss mat work in there too. It's a pretty cheap book so wouldn't be terrible to pick up supplementary. Not sure there's a ton in it that will be helpful, I bought it for Payton and it's a good book for me to have as a teacher of training classes but not much to really help with P himself. I think Allie has bought it for Finn so maybe she can chime in.

And yes I ditto the idea of working as just the car as your starting point, the approach to the environment rather than the environment itself.

I also was going to post this morning about behavioural meds but got distracted being at work. The idea in many cases is really is to just help take the edge off so the training can sink in. I know many people are really slow to try meds and I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I would put that idea in your back pocket to consider later if not now. I do think it seems to be exacerbated by all these changes in your life, which I realize you can't really do much about circumstances being what they are, so anxiety rather than pure over-stimulation is definitely a possibility here.

I'll read this more in depth tomorrow and add more if something comes to me but lots of good advice in here from what I see. He is a good boy and I think you will get things resolved with him. Just a lot of changes in his life and if I had to guess, I think he's reacting from the stress of that.
 

stardogs

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#18
From the videos, the second one looks like he's actually pretty stressy - he's frenetic and his tail is way lower. It reminds me a LOT of when my Maggie was stressed by crowed places - super frenetic, could respond, but she couldn't sit still for long and went right back to being frenetic.

I also noticed he's hitting the end of his lead a lot, so getting lots of naggy corrections, which could certainly be amping him up. Is the prong tied back to a collar? That will also limit the effectiveness of the corrections if that's the direction you've been going.

I'd probably try the thundershirt first to see if that helps. My money is on stress, not your typical overarousal.
 

stardogs

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#19
I also was going to post this morning about behavioural meds but got distracted being at work. The idea in many cases is really is to just help take the edge off so the training can sink in. I know many people are really slow to try meds and I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I would put that idea in your back pocket to consider later if not now. I do think it seems to be exacerbated by all these changes in your life, which I realize you can't really do much about circumstances being what they are, so anxiety rather than pure over-stimulation is definitely a possibility here.
And this. Sometimes raising the threshold to a workable level is all it takes for all the training to stick.

I have a client right now who recently moved into a city apartment from a suburban house. Her dog did well the first two weeks, but she's now identified all the spots where she sees dogs (she's dog reactive on leash) and now they are having trouble getting her to not go over threshold as they approach these spots. We've talked meds as a temporary aid to help get the threshold to a workable level and they are considering it since it's impossible to stay subthreshold right now.
 
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#20
I don't think the stress is from anything other than conflict created by wanting to run off and explore and hitting the end of the leash. I think clarity would make it all go away.
 

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