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Manchester, I'm sorry for you but I don't see how being so rude and so nasty helps anybody. Yes maybe you have lots of knowledge and I for one would love to learn from you but you gotta be alittle nicer about it. If you have had a bad month then I am sorry for you and I sympathize with your looses, but please don't begrade the others. Not everyone can afford $150 either so saying there's no excuse.. oh yes there is. If my a/c had not been given to me we would not own one. For us $150 is way to much money to spend because it is more important that the kids have food and a place to live. We can't just assume everybody has money to spare and never was it ever suggested that the dog was left outside to broil. I think you read something and somehow got confused and defensive and went to town. Rein in and re think and if you are not willing to do that then I am sorry but I too will just stop reading your posts. That would be a shame as I think you have much to share. It is the way you go about it that the problem arises. Calling someone to stupid to own is a dog is really not a good start but if we are doing this, I would fit into that category because I don't have much knowledge about dogs. Maybe it would be better if everyone just took there dogs to a shelter and had them destroyed. Perhaps that would make you happier. I for one would rather be to stupid and still have my doggy than risk him being put down. Please settle in your ways abit more, it is fine to voice your opinions but constructive criticism is always the best and always means more. Gets people to think more rather than putting them on the defensive. I have tried my best to not turn this into bashing and I must admit I am very angry right now however, bashing will certainly never solve anything. Just have a heart and abit more compassion.
I feel sad that it has come down to this level of mud slinging!! 
Manchester may be just a straight talker, I am one of those people who like to be told whats what without all the frills!! This may not suit everybody but what has been said has been said and we should all just move forward from here now! If we can all learn to accommodate each other a bit better I think we'll all get along fine! Please remember that when you are typing it sounds different in your head to how it sounds when it is actually written, Something that sounds totally mild in your head can sound pretty darn harsh on here without all the facial and voice tone changes to back it up!
Ok, Manchester could have been a bit more tactful granted, and she should remember that alot of our members are quite young and need to have the facts woolied out a bit so that they aren't as black and white!! The rest of us could have been a bit more tolerant! We are doing the exact same thing by chewing people out for having an opinion!! This does not make for a happy Louie or forum!
Please lets keep our toys in the pram! Thanks!
Manchester may be just a straight talker, I am one of those people who like to be told whats what without all the frills!! This may not suit everybody but what has been said has been said and we should all just move forward from here now! If we can all learn to accommodate each other a bit better I think we'll all get along fine! Please remember that when you are typing it sounds different in your head to how it sounds when it is actually written, Something that sounds totally mild in your head can sound pretty darn harsh on here without all the facial and voice tone changes to back it up!Ok, Manchester could have been a bit more tactful granted, and she should remember that alot of our members are quite young and need to have the facts woolied out a bit so that they aren't as black and white!! The rest of us could have been a bit more tolerant! We are doing the exact same thing by chewing people out for having an opinion!! This does not make for a happy Louie or forum!
Please lets keep our toys in the pram! Thanks!
Well, I don't have anything against manchesters (aside from a brief thread whereupon she basically informed that because my pup was eight weeks he would never learn good bite inhibition, a theory that is ridiculous). I think she may know some, but everybody has differing theories on everything, and I don't believe all of hers are correct. But then again, everybody has some experience to share.
Well I only read Manchester's post in this thread and I have to agree with lots of it to be honest. Sure, dogs can live without AC, but depending on where you live, if you can't afford it, I don't think you should have dogs either. It's just a matter of good sense, if you won't leave your dog in your car in the sun, you shouldn't leave it in a house that is over 100 degrees either.
I don't personally live in a very hot area, but 2 weeks ago we had a whole week with over 65% of humidity, we lost power for one hour and the dogs were already lethargic and panting a lot. I don't want to imagine what would have happened if the power hadn't come back quick, because the AC in the room made a ton of difference (it's just a window unit).
I've been in arguments about it already too, and I really think that dogs are like children, if you can't afford to take care of them, you shouldn't have any. And that does include being able to pay the vet if there is an emergency (to an extent of course). There are probably just as many irresponsible parents as irresponsible dog owners though unfortunately. I've been flamed for it, but so be it.
In the defense of Manchester though, I've seen so many irresponsible and stupid owners, I don't think it's that surprising if people assume right away that most owners just don't know what they are doing. Even if they post on forums - seriously, I've seen people post things like 'my dog is bleeding a lot, what should I do?' or stories of people crying because they left their dogs outside, one escaped, then the other escaped too a day later because they obviously didn't make sure the second one couldn't escape like the first one did. Seriously, I'm often at a loss for words for this kind of stupidity. Thanksfully it doesn't happen much at all here.
Besides, we all do it to an extent... If you say that your dog is jumping on people, you'll have 10 other posts saying that you should train him/socialize him etc. In my case, nevermind that I've spent 5 months so far trying to fix it, and nothing has worked, and when I got that kind of replies I got really upset, because he's pretty well trained otherwise, and very socialized. But I guess it's normal, people here don't know the others and just assume right away that you are not an experienced owner. It might not be the same tone than Manchester uses, but it's really not that different.
I don't personally live in a very hot area, but 2 weeks ago we had a whole week with over 65% of humidity, we lost power for one hour and the dogs were already lethargic and panting a lot. I don't want to imagine what would have happened if the power hadn't come back quick, because the AC in the room made a ton of difference (it's just a window unit).
I've been in arguments about it already too, and I really think that dogs are like children, if you can't afford to take care of them, you shouldn't have any. And that does include being able to pay the vet if there is an emergency (to an extent of course). There are probably just as many irresponsible parents as irresponsible dog owners though unfortunately. I've been flamed for it, but so be it.
In the defense of Manchester though, I've seen so many irresponsible and stupid owners, I don't think it's that surprising if people assume right away that most owners just don't know what they are doing. Even if they post on forums - seriously, I've seen people post things like 'my dog is bleeding a lot, what should I do?' or stories of people crying because they left their dogs outside, one escaped, then the other escaped too a day later because they obviously didn't make sure the second one couldn't escape like the first one did. Seriously, I'm often at a loss for words for this kind of stupidity. Thanksfully it doesn't happen much at all here.
Besides, we all do it to an extent... If you say that your dog is jumping on people, you'll have 10 other posts saying that you should train him/socialize him etc. In my case, nevermind that I've spent 5 months so far trying to fix it, and nothing has worked, and when I got that kind of replies I got really upset, because he's pretty well trained otherwise, and very socialized. But I guess it's normal, people here don't know the others and just assume right away that you are not an experienced owner. It might not be the same tone than Manchester uses, but it's really not that different.
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Fran
If you want your dog to stop jumping on people, there is a very simple solution (NO------NOT cutting the legs off the dog!) Get people to come over as often as possible, and do all they can to entice the dog to jump up on them---without actually TELLING the dog to do so.....if ya get my drift. After the dog has hopped up, have the person grab the front feet and hold them while tapping lightly on the back toes of the dog. DO NOT LET GO OF THE FRONT PAWS. Wait until the dog is begging to be let down. A few sessions of that and you won't be able to get the dog to jump up on a person for a bet!!!!
If you want your dog to stop jumping on people, there is a very simple solution (NO------NOT cutting the legs off the dog!) Get people to come over as often as possible, and do all they can to entice the dog to jump up on them---without actually TELLING the dog to do so.....if ya get my drift. After the dog has hopped up, have the person grab the front feet and hold them while tapping lightly on the back toes of the dog. DO NOT LET GO OF THE FRONT PAWS. Wait until the dog is begging to be let down. A few sessions of that and you won't be able to get the dog to jump up on a person for a bet!!!!
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Bite Inhibition
Bridey......
Please find any post where I discussed bite inhibition? What I most likely did say was that puppies are not physically, mentally or emotionally prepared to leave their home, parents and siblings before at least 10 weeks of age. This is NOT my personal opinion---this is the FACT as discovered by thousands of those of us who breed and raise, and instill behavior into puppies.
And I probably also said that from the age of 8-10 weeks, puppies learn to be dogs, as taught by their dam and siblings. The difference is I KNOW what I am talking about based not just on my experience with hundreds of pups over the years, but the experiences of thousands of other top breeders in the country.
And no responsible breeder will place any puppy earlier than 10 weeks of age!
Bridey......
Please find any post where I discussed bite inhibition? What I most likely did say was that puppies are not physically, mentally or emotionally prepared to leave their home, parents and siblings before at least 10 weeks of age. This is NOT my personal opinion---this is the FACT as discovered by thousands of those of us who breed and raise, and instill behavior into puppies.
And I probably also said that from the age of 8-10 weeks, puppies learn to be dogs, as taught by their dam and siblings. The difference is I KNOW what I am talking about based not just on my experience with hundreds of pups over the years, but the experiences of thousands of other top breeders in the country.
And no responsible breeder will place any puppy earlier than 10 weeks of age!
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I personally have never met a trainer who has ever intentionally bought a pup over eight weeks of age, as by that time the all important socialisation window is closing. Between eight and twelve weeks I try to socialise my pups to everything ranging from horses to babies, umbrellas to bagpipes. I HAVE to do this because I train service dogs for people with disabilities. I don't much care how many "thousands" of people agree upon such a "fact". I have bought all my pups at eight weeks and never had a single aggression or socialisation problem with them. The same goes for nearly every trainer I know.
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That is so true and I think it is very hard to give advice over the internet. When you can't see the dog it makes it difficult to explain what it is doing or how to stop it. Also Many people gave the same advice over and over or advise something that has already been done and stated as such. As far as Manchester goes I believe there is lots to learn from her and also I find it rather hard to sometimes read rude posts but it is true we all have our way. I gotta agree with Gustav as well sometimes when I type things in my mind they sound alot different. I guess bottom line is if you don't like what someone says or how they say it then don't read their posts anymore. On the can't afford kids or dogs issue--agreed, we are not a rich family but we have limitted ourselves to the 2 kids we have and there will be no more, not because we don't want more, but because we can't afford more. We have invested in pet insurance because if there ever was an emergency we could never afford it. So insurance is a big help. I never want Yukon to suffer because I don't have money to pay for something. God forbid anything were to happen. The jumping advice that Manchester gave, I have heard that before and almost exactly the same as it was worded there so she can't possibly be all bad. Actually I have a question for you because so far nothing has helped. How do I stop Yukon from peeing in his crate and then sleeping in it. This is on the thread for behavioural under 3rd bath today for Yukon. Absolutely any advice appreciated! Manchester I would love to hear your suggestions.
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Julie....
WHY is there always the melodramatic announcement "I am leaving" whenever there is a heated disagreement on a message board? Why not the more mature route of just not reading posts by certain people you consider jackasses?? Your post was not at all harsh. I simply consider the source, and pay no attention, lol. Too bad others cannot do the same.
Like your comment about feeling sorry for my dogs. I feel sorry for them myself, roflmao. The poor things do not have their own swimming pool, nor do they get to eat sorbet on these hot, hot days. And I refuse to feed them steak 3 times a day. You are right......the poor things live miserable lives!!
I have no time for political correctness---which actually amounts to only handing out bull crap and telling people what they want to hear. My comments are directed to what has been written. It is NOT a personal critique of the person who wrote the post. It is a critique of the ACTIONS the poster took. It is extremely immature to react to a person's posts as tho they were personal attacks. I would at least have to know a person to attack their morality, etc. If I don't like what someone does, I will darn well say so. If any take offense at what I say, then they have the problem. IT IS NOT WHAT IS SAID, BUT HOW PEOPLE __ALLOW__ WHAT IS SAID TO AFFECT THEM!!!!!
Toodles!
WHY is there always the melodramatic announcement "I am leaving" whenever there is a heated disagreement on a message board? Why not the more mature route of just not reading posts by certain people you consider jackasses?? Your post was not at all harsh. I simply consider the source, and pay no attention, lol. Too bad others cannot do the same.
Like your comment about feeling sorry for my dogs. I feel sorry for them myself, roflmao. The poor things do not have their own swimming pool, nor do they get to eat sorbet on these hot, hot days. And I refuse to feed them steak 3 times a day. You are right......the poor things live miserable lives!!
I have no time for political correctness---which actually amounts to only handing out bull crap and telling people what they want to hear. My comments are directed to what has been written. It is NOT a personal critique of the person who wrote the post. It is a critique of the ACTIONS the poster took. It is extremely immature to react to a person's posts as tho they were personal attacks. I would at least have to know a person to attack their morality, etc. If I don't like what someone does, I will darn well say so. If any take offense at what I say, then they have the problem. IT IS NOT WHAT IS SAID, BUT HOW PEOPLE __ALLOW__ WHAT IS SAID TO AFFECT THEM!!!!!
Toodles!
exactly zoom a medien, but just because we dont have the same thinking of manchesters, she doesnt have o bite off our heads, sorry that is more along the lines of which i meant. im not asking anyone to lower the standards to the point of stupidity.But julie, dont leave i understand where your coming from we have had so many great chats, and you have had knowledgable info, it seems by us sticking up for manchesters we may be loosing other members, but i do understand, manchesters was not all wrong, she actually was pretty wright about some things.
maybe with the help of manchesters, we can let by gones be by gones
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You know I hate to be odd man out here but after reading the posts this morning by Manchester I think we have a very valuable trainer who can really help. Also I have to agree 100% if you don't like what she says or how she puts it, don't read it. I feel I now owe Manchester an apology for being so harsh and misunderstanding in the past. I think I jumped on the band wagon alittle to fast and I am truely sorry. I actually look forward to reading more and learning more from you and I am terribly sorry. I guess maybe the heat has made my brain abit mushy and yes the monthly friend makes me rather b****y. Please forgive me and I will certainly try to be more mature in future.
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Bridey
Well, here we are discussing the class of people from whom you obtain your dogs. It would seem that you are getting them from "puppy producers", as opposed to educated, responsible breeders.
Now, of course I have not bothered to go into the physical well being of a puppy under the age of at least 10 weeks, because most would have no idea of the topic of maternal immunities blocking vaccine immunities until at least 10 weeks of age. Likely most of the people you would be obtaining dogs from don't even bother to vaccinate the dam after breeding.
And to be honest most of the people I know would not sell puppies to anyone who wanted one younger than 10-12 weeks of age! Just because you don't circulate in the upper echelons of the dog world does not mean that those of us with ethics are wrong! I have done more behavior training and conditioning than you will ever live to do! It is called raising a litter of puppies!
And I will also tell you that whoever lets a pup go at 8 weeks of age is only interested in 1 of 2 things---getting their money out of the pup, or foisting off the cleaning and expense of vaccinations off on others.
Just my personal opinion, of course. Me and most of the top breeders who spend their lives trying to preserve and improve the quality of their respective breeds.
Oh---by the way.........these puppies you get---have the parents been tested for HD, cardio, vWD, PRA, and the like? If not, why not? And do you get a lifetime health guarantee on the puppies, like us breeders give on our puppies???? Hhmmmmm? Inquiring minds, and all that jazz!
Well, here we are discussing the class of people from whom you obtain your dogs. It would seem that you are getting them from "puppy producers", as opposed to educated, responsible breeders.
Now, of course I have not bothered to go into the physical well being of a puppy under the age of at least 10 weeks, because most would have no idea of the topic of maternal immunities blocking vaccine immunities until at least 10 weeks of age. Likely most of the people you would be obtaining dogs from don't even bother to vaccinate the dam after breeding.
And to be honest most of the people I know would not sell puppies to anyone who wanted one younger than 10-12 weeks of age! Just because you don't circulate in the upper echelons of the dog world does not mean that those of us with ethics are wrong! I have done more behavior training and conditioning than you will ever live to do! It is called raising a litter of puppies!
And I will also tell you that whoever lets a pup go at 8 weeks of age is only interested in 1 of 2 things---getting their money out of the pup, or foisting off the cleaning and expense of vaccinations off on others.
Just my personal opinion, of course. Me and most of the top breeders who spend their lives trying to preserve and improve the quality of their respective breeds.
Oh---by the way.........these puppies you get---have the parents been tested for HD, cardio, vWD, PRA, and the like? If not, why not? And do you get a lifetime health guarantee on the puppies, like us breeders give on our puppies???? Hhmmmmm? Inquiring minds, and all that jazz!
Oh manchesters you really are exceedinlgy arrogant to the point of being ridiculous!
Poor me and my slummy pups, helping those poor trashy wheelchair victims! Poor me attending lectures all over Australia and meeting with various international trainers! If only I could get my pups a few weeks older, maybe I could circulate in the upper part of society and stop eating out of trash cans! But no, me and my LIFETIME HEALTH GURANTEED FULLY VACCINATED AMAZINGLY CLEVER COLLIE will have to make do with his awful misunderstanding of other dogs due to his being taken from his distraught mother too soon. I must say, the way he plays perfectly with other dogs and pups is downright terrifying. I really wish I had gotten him later.
Poor me and my slummy pups, helping those poor trashy wheelchair victims! Poor me attending lectures all over Australia and meeting with various international trainers! If only I could get my pups a few weeks older, maybe I could circulate in the upper part of society and stop eating out of trash cans! But no, me and my LIFETIME HEALTH GURANTEED FULLY VACCINATED AMAZINGLY CLEVER COLLIE will have to make do with his awful misunderstanding of other dogs due to his being taken from his distraught mother too soon. I must say, the way he plays perfectly with other dogs and pups is downright terrifying. I really wish I had gotten him later.
Not to take sides or anything, but I really think that the responsible breeders who only sell puppies after 10 weeks also take the time to show them everything they need to be well socialized. In your position Bridey though, I agree that I would probably do the same too, because I trust myself more than even the most responsible breeder to show the pup what he has to see before he's 12 weeks.
I'm still sure that a pup that will stay longer with the litter will be easier to train however, and have less nipping problems later on.
I'm still sure that a pup that will stay longer with the litter will be easier to train however, and have less nipping problems later on.
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