SFE- Today... *dun dun dun*

RD

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#21
I don't mind . . . I don't know much about e-collars, admittedly. I just don't like the idea of a remote correction device. Definitely willing to be open-minded and learn about it, tho.
 

MomOf7

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#23
I don't mind . . . I don't know much about e-collars, admittedly. I just don't like the idea of a remote correction device. Definitely willing to be open-minded and learn about it, tho.
This is what I am doing. I am asking the trainers on a gun dog forum I go to to help me. I posted the two threads about Roxy and asked thier opinion.
I dont know if they will come here and answer cause I didnt ask them to but I will post thier opinions.
 

Beanie

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#25
You have no idea if the dog associated the correction with breaking a watch command or what.
Neither do you.
Neither does Roxy's owner nor trainer.
Oooh, I do believe we've discovered the point!



Anyway, back to the OP! I hope things continue to go positive for you and that you really can work through this. I also hope you never ever have a bad experience from any of this. I want to be happy for you, but in the back of my mind, I know I'd always be terrified of the dog biting an examiner without warning.
I'm so torn for you, so I just wish you best.
 
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whatszmatter

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#26
Is the level one on an e-collar a reward? Does the dog like it?
In this case no, but you bet it could be in another one. It would just be the mark for the correct behavior. A level one is so low that it be used to mark a correct behavior just as it could be used to say, hey, pay attention. BUt that's a different arguement. Dog training is all about communication, and it is a two way street. and yes its avoiding the punishment, and it works.

The "other way" obviously wasn't the right way. The right way wasn't used. In fact, she explained how she did not go about it in the way that was described in a couple of posts....I think RD's an Melanies...(I forget who posted a viable method) A lot of people claim that they've used positive methods and then come to find out after they describe what they've done, it's all a** backwards with big holes in it.
The same could be said for a lot of people that mess up their dogs using any type of training philosophy.
 

IliamnasQuest

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#27
This is what I am doing. I am asking the trainers on a gun dog forum I go to to help me. I posted the two threads about Roxy and asked thier opinion.
I dont know if they will come here and answer cause I didnt ask them to but I will post thier opinions.
Well, unfortunately many gun-dog/hunting dog trainers depend highly on the e-collar for control - and with breeds that WANT to work with their owners, which is really sad.

I've seen excellent hunting dogs trained without the use of shock, but it takes an exemplary trainer to do that. Most don't bother - they want the easy way out, the quick fix and they go right to the e-collar to get it. Using shock is COMMON in training for hunting and field work, but it surely doesn't make it RIGHT.

But of course, they will defend to the death their right to use it. Unfortunately it's often used just to earn titles ... as poor a reason as any.

We're also not talking about training a dog that isn't being touched by a stranger. I don't believe there's any part of a gun-dog training that requires the dog to hold a stand-stay while the owner is six feet away, and a stranger comes up and touches the dog. That's the situation we're talking about here. Using shock to stop aggressive behavior in a dog who is uncomfortable in that situation is a HUGE mistake.

Is there anyone on that gun-dog forum who is a good enough trainer to do the training without shock? THAT'S the person who would impress me. And can they teach the retrieve without forcing it with an ear pinch or a toe pinch? I have seen first-hand what happens in training many of those hunting dogs. It crosses the path of abuse at times.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

IliamnasQuest

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#28
A level one is so low that it be used to mark a correct behavior just as it could be used to say, hey, pay attention. BUt that's a different arguement. Dog training is all about communication, and it is a two way street. and yes its avoiding the punishment, and it works.
You accuse others of making assumptions and knowing what's going on without being there, but you are now doing the same exact thing. You're assuming to know what a dog felt at "level one" and making it sound like it's so low that the dog isn't getting much correction from it. But that depends entirely on the dog.

I have seen shock collar work where a level of 25 (from zero - 100) is a mere ear twitch on one dog, but a level of eight with the same collar makes another dog yelp. At eight, I could barely even feel it, but obviously it was quite a correction to the dog. Use of shock in training is something to never be taken lightly, and should never be used just to keep a dog from showing signs of insecurity or aggression. It's a poor trainer who does that.

As always, we have to base our opinions on the information given, and that's exactly what I've done with Roxy's situation. I've read what she's written to us and under no circumstances do I want others to think that what she's done is a GOOD thing. How many unsuspecting dog owners out there would read her glowing post on how it worked wonders, and then run out and buy their own shock collars so they could shock their own dogs into submission? Do you really, honestly think that what she did was a GOOD thing? Do you really, honestly think that teaching her dog to not show its lip has now cured the dog of all unhappy or stressful feelings about the stand for exam?

Surely you are a better trainer than that. I suspect you are just arguing because you don't like the people who promote positive training - at least that's been your track record to date.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

sam

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#29
Sure, ask the gundog people to join in. The more the merrier, but training gun dogs for distance work with an e-collar is of course a VERY different thing than using it to deal with a dog who snarls or lipcurls with a trainer approaching for SFE. I don't think aggression towards humans is probably a very common occurence with gun dogs.
Wouldn't it be smarter to talk to some trainers who specialise in aggression and ask them how they feel about using an e-collar?
 

Doberluv

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#30
I suspect you are just arguing because you don't like the people who promote positive training - at least that's been your track record to date.
Yup....Track record all rght.

I have known lots of people who hunted with their dogs. My Dad, now 88 yrs. old, an avid hunter back in "the day" when I was a teen, use to have a friend with a Chocolate Lab who he trained beautifully himself. That dog was a push button dog and he never had to use a shock collar. He had another friend with a Brittany. Same thing. Beautifully trained without a shock collar...very reliable. I remember my Dad just raving about these dogs out in the field when he went hunting for birds. I remember getting to watch them go through their paces in their yards when I visited. I don't think that would have ever occured to either of these men to use a shock collar. They used very gentle methods to train them. These dogs were couch potatoes and spoiled rotten when at home when I was at their houses. They absolutely adored their dogs. LOL. My Dad also talked about hunting with dogs when he was a young man. He described the dogs and how superbly they were trained. They didn't even have electric collars then I don't think. So, I don't know.....what did they do before shock collars were invented? I know there were fabulously trained hunting dogs though.

I wouldn't guage what these modern day hunters who depend on electric shock to train their dogs say to compare to this serious dog-human aggression situation. Training people friendly gun dogs is not applicable IMO to what we have here, a serious behavior problem.

Sam....we posted at the same time. Gee, great minds think alike. :)
 
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whatszmatter

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#31
You accuse others of making assumptions and knowing what's going on without being there, but you are now doing the same exact thing. You're assuming to know what a dog felt at "level one" and making it sound like it's so low that the dog isn't getting much correction from it. But that depends entirely on the dog.
Yeah I guess I assumed it wasn't much cause the dog didn't really have much of a reaction.

I think she did the best thing they could do. I"m not going to say they were correcting away her dog's warning signs or if the dog understood that it was for breaking a watch command. Sure it could have meant either to the dog. BUT the dog has responded. SOme may say its just more dangerous, but i've seen more than a few dogs (that I've had zero relationship or connection with) go off on people for who knows what reasons, sometimes with warning sometimes without. Using the E-collar IMO doesn't predispose her dog to being any more dangerous or less in that catagory.

I'm not saying I would necessarily do it that way, but i am not her trainer or her. Someone who goes out and uses something they have no idea about under certain circumstances isn't very bright imo, but that's not really in my control.

Surely you are a better trainer than that. I suspect you are just arguing because you don't like the people who promote positive training - at least that's been your track record to date.
No i'm arguing cause I think she's doing the best she can, I don't think all the doom and gloom stuff everyone is saying is any more possible now than it was before hand. I don't believe the just because an e-collar was used that everyone is now in danger and she should be doing things totally different.

If her dog is licking her lips showing some calming or stress signals, fine, the dog was stressed in the first place. BUt they have been able to make progress. Either the dog is licking cause it isn't as stressed as it was before, or maybe others are right and she just learned that snarling was not acceptable.

I have no problem with people promoting positive methods,why would I?? I do have a problem with half truths and nothing but negatives from some about the other half of dog training.
 

Roxy's CD

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#32
Kris, I'd love to hear from people that use the e-collar for training purposes, I'm sure they get a positive outcome as well. Not every trainer that uses the e-collar burns their dog. Many get positive outcomes, and believe it or not the dog's spirit isn't broken.

Now, don't get me wrong, for all the positive method, trainers out there, I am in no way saying your wrong, or soft or whatever the term many I'm sure have labelled you.

I use purely positive methods with Hades. Period. I used leash corrections with him for the first few weeks of school and decided quickly that they were NOT required. He's just not that type of dog.

And for those who use the e-collar, I am in no way stating that they are cruel or inhumane.

There are many ways to get a dog to perform the skills you want them to do. Those are just two ways of doing it.

There are two roads to get to point B. Whichever road you take doesn't make it anymore right or wrong to me. They are two roads, that end up in the same place, maybe if your driving a 4X4 you can take the rocky trail, if your in a sports car the paved road is the way for you. *shrugs*

Elegy, I don't try to hide and disillusion myself about Roxy's issues. I admit to them, and find ways to work on them. That's different than saying they don't exist at all. I know they exist. I've ruled out some possible reason why, and feel comfortable on working with those issues with my trainer.

Admitting that they are there, but working to cease certain behaviours is different than not admitting they're there at all.

RD- Yes, many dogs become "collar smart", but with most dogs, it takes more than a one hour session of wearing it, and getting shocked ten times. Roxy wore the collar the WHOLE lesson, and didn't get shocked the whole time. Same with yesterday. She wore it, but did not get shocked at all. Next lesson, I won't put it on her at all.

I think what many are forgetting is we've never been able to examine her before. Ever like we did yesterday. She got no corrections whatsoever. No verbal, no shock. And she got rewarded quite heavily.

Doberluv- I try to use your theory a little bit to explain to myself *why* she does this. Roxy is a "snooty" dog. She does enjoy attention, but when she wants to play and not be patted anymore, she is very demanding. If you continue to do what she doesn't want anymore, and not what she wants she'll show her teeth and make noises so you'll make eye contact to see how scary she is, so you'll do what she wants you to.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, it's your theory, but showing her teeth has worked all this time. For months and months. All those times we fed her food the whole time my trainer was touching her, she was fine, as soon as the food was gone out came the teeth. It's something that has worked for her up until now. My new idea, mixed with RD's technique, is: If you let my trainer touch you, which doesn't hurt you, after you get a whole *bunch* of treats, and pats from the both of us.

So this behaviour gets you more than the old one. Therefore, it's in my best interest to behave, and than I'll get a whole whack of treats and mommy says I'm a good girl.. If that makes any sense.

I do not plan on trialing her anytime soon. We've only got ONE real, perfect though mind you SFE in almost a year. A whole year. I am more than aware that we have plenty of work to do, than more proofing with other people, other than my trainer. I am not "disillusioning" myself to that fact.

Sam, you're right. I don't want this post to make others go out and buy an e-collar. At the same time, I think it's pretty clear, that this is not a "normal" situation. As well, having an e-collar is in no way a bad thing. E-collar's work quite well for a variety of "bad behaviours" as we like to label the term.

It's also been made clear on both this thread and the other, that this was a LAST RESORT. After around 9-10 months of working on it, using treats, we had gone nowhere, actually we'd probably taken a few steps back. Roxy was quick to take advantage of us, eating all the treats than showing her teeth as SOON as she realized there were none left.

Quest- I do not believe that after maybe 6 SFE without a lip curl, ROxy is totally uncomfortable. I don't know where I said that she was totally fine with the SFE now.

I know that she isn't, but IMO, and I know my dog quite well, she was 100% more comfortable with is yesterday than she has EVER been. We did it a few times, and the last one, it was quite clear that she wasn't as nervous or angry with the situation as she has been before.

It will take time to get her used to this, and plenty of praise when she does it right. That's the plan. To get as many good SFE's that I can REWARD HEAVILY to show her that that is the behaviour I want. Than reward some more.

I am more than aware and not going to trial her tomorrow. I know this. But as of yesterday, her attitude, which is what the problem is, has changed about the SFE.

She has never really gotten a huge reward for a SFE. A few times she did "OK" for ROxy and got some treats, but not near the amount she did yesterday. And it was almost like it was a totally different event for her. Like when we first trained for the retrieve. She was unsure when we were finished but was anxious for her reward. It was kind of the same thing yesterday. Am I doing it right? YES! WHooopeee! *jumps around* eats a bunch of treats.

As for the collar level, Kris knows what a Level 1 in this particular brand of collar is like, and I'm sure she could tell you it's barely perceptible. My trainer could not feel it at all, and wanted me to turn it up, she could barely feel a level 2. But the level of stimulation differs from dog to dog so it doesn't really matter as Quest stated.

Now to end this, I don't want to sound rude or blunt myself.

But none of you know Roxy. I did exhaust the positive method with her. Positive methods work great when training her to do something she likes. But she is clever, and if she's even a little uncomfortable, she will take advantage of that positive method. Roxy likes to be touched by people on her own terms, she demands when she wants to be touched, where and in what manner. With the SFE there is no choice.

And perhaps to begin she wasn't even that unhappy or that uncomfortable. But the behaviours that I've been working on, worked for her to begin with, and those behaviours grew and grew until it was clear that the methods chosen were not working. They were allowing these behaviours to get worse.

Have any of you heard the positive method for teaching a recall?

Well it was tried on Roxy for about a week. Until she figured it out. Mom calls me. When I get to her I get a treat. If I don't come when she calls, it's OK, when I do get there I'll get a treat. So, right now, the treat is my second priority, first I want to go over and sniff the mat the puppy pee'd on, THAN I'll go get a treat from mommy.

That's the method that does work on many dogs. But with Roxy, she quickly figured out, that this method, didn't demand that she come IMMEDIATELY. Just whenever she could make it by, and when she did, whenever that be, she would get a treat.

She has two lessons next week. As I said, I'm going to try to get a video. I'm sure than many of you, who already have your mind set won't change them, even if you see a dog that doesn't look *that* uncomfortable. But, than again, you never saw her SFE's when we were using the positive methods. I wonder what you all would've reccomended if you saw those.... Weeks upon weeks, hours upon hours of a positive method used, and her reaction... Either your answer would be, leave it be. It's not that important. Or spend another year on it.

RD- I can't remember because I"ve spent so long writing this post, but I seem to remember your post having to do with stress and nervousness.

As I said, yesterday my trainer said that she didn't want to stress the "watch me" as much. Too much at once, when she's already in a stressful situation. So she said, let her look at me, when I make one step towards her and stop. Say watch me ONCE. She'll glance at me, when she realizes I'm not coming any closer and she looks back at you, reward.

So with the changed method, there's not as much stress on watch me watch me watch me. But rather while we get her used to it, watch me, but if you notice her moving and you want to see where she's going, glance over and check it out. When you feel comfortable again, look back to me. If that makes any sense.

The first time, the whole time, I was stressing watch me watch me watch me. And my trainer believes it was undue stress. Watch mom, mom wants me to watch her, but I want to look over sooo bad at her... aahh! Now it's a little more relaxed so she can get comfortable.

As well yesterday, there were no sweaty pawprints on the floor when she was released.

It's clear, and I already knew that most would not agree. Doberluv, thanks for your honesty, I'd rather you tell me the truth as you did than sugar coat it ;)

But that goes for when you see the video as well. No vice versa just because you've stated your opinions so bluntly. I don't want people to sugar coat it, but I don't want you to be so stuck in your own heads that what I've done is wrong, that you wont' ADMIT, that Roxy doesn't look uncomfortable as he!!.
 

Doberluv

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#33
The way you describe "positive" methods and how you've used them shows me that you are missing the gist. There is more to the science of learning than handing out a bunch of treats. This is science. It is proven to work on even dogs in worse shape than Roxy. I'm sorry to say but what you've tried does not describe what I know about "positive" methods. (I don't like that non-technical adjective/cliche)

Anyhow, I do wish you the best and hope Roxy gets comfortable with this. It sounds like she must have had some problems from early puppy hood as far as having her demands reacted to so that she developed this way where she learned that it works to act that way. I don't know. But I think I've run my course with this thead. I do hope everything turns out well for you and your dog. Maybe she'll get use to all this pressure in time. Hopefully, she's young and has a few more years to give to you so you can get that title.

Me, I'm just glad to have my dogs in my life. I don't care too much about what they prove or achieve other than being the loyal, lovely pals they are. Anything else is just gravy.
 

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