Kris, I'd love to hear from people that use the e-collar for training purposes, I'm sure they get a positive outcome as well. Not every trainer that uses the e-collar burns their dog. Many get positive outcomes, and believe it or not the dog's spirit isn't broken.
Now, don't get me wrong, for all the positive method, trainers out there, I am in no way saying your wrong, or soft or whatever the term many I'm sure have labelled you.
I use purely positive methods with Hades. Period. I used leash corrections with him for the first few weeks of school and decided quickly that they were NOT required. He's just not that type of dog.
And for those who use the e-collar, I am in no way stating that they are cruel or inhumane.
There are many ways to get a dog to perform the skills you want them to do. Those are just two ways of doing it.
There are two roads to get to point B. Whichever road you take doesn't make it anymore right or wrong to me. They are two roads, that end up in the same place, maybe if your driving a 4X4 you can take the rocky trail, if your in a sports car the paved road is the way for you. *shrugs*
Elegy, I don't try to hide and disillusion myself about Roxy's issues. I admit to them, and find ways to work on them. That's different than saying they don't exist at all. I know they exist. I've ruled out some possible reason why, and feel comfortable on working with those issues with my trainer.
Admitting that they are there, but working to cease certain behaviours is different than not admitting they're there at all.
RD- Yes, many dogs become "collar smart", but with most dogs, it takes more than a one hour session of wearing it, and getting shocked ten times. Roxy wore the collar the WHOLE lesson, and didn't get shocked the whole time. Same with yesterday. She wore it, but did not get shocked at all. Next lesson, I won't put it on her at all.
I think what many are forgetting is we've never been able to examine her before. Ever like we did yesterday. She got no corrections whatsoever. No verbal, no shock. And she got rewarded quite heavily.
Doberluv- I try to use your theory a little bit to explain to myself *why* she does this. Roxy is a "snooty" dog. She does enjoy attention, but when she wants to play and not be patted anymore, she is very demanding. If you continue to do what she doesn't want anymore, and not what she wants she'll show her teeth and make noises so you'll make eye contact to see how scary she is, so you'll do what she wants you to.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, it's your theory, but showing her teeth has worked all this time. For months and months. All those times we fed her food the whole time my trainer was touching her, she was fine, as soon as the food was gone out came the teeth. It's something that has worked for her up until now. My new idea, mixed with RD's technique, is: If you let my trainer touch you, which doesn't hurt you, after you get a whole *bunch* of treats, and pats from the both of us.
So this behaviour gets you more than the old one. Therefore, it's in my best interest to behave, and than I'll get a whole whack of treats and mommy says I'm a good girl.. If that makes any sense.
I do not plan on trialing her anytime soon. We've only got ONE real, perfect though mind you SFE in almost a year. A whole year. I am more than aware that we have plenty of work to do, than more proofing with other people, other than my trainer. I am not "disillusioning" myself to that fact.
Sam, you're right. I don't want this post to make others go out and buy an e-collar. At the same time, I think it's pretty clear, that this is not a "normal" situation. As well, having an e-collar is in no way a bad thing. E-collar's work quite well for a variety of "bad behaviours" as we like to label the term.
It's also been made clear on both this thread and the other, that this was a LAST RESORT. After around 9-10 months of working on it, using treats, we had gone nowhere, actually we'd probably taken a few steps back. Roxy was quick to take advantage of us, eating all the treats than showing her teeth as SOON as she realized there were none left.
Quest- I do not believe that after maybe 6 SFE without a lip curl, ROxy is totally uncomfortable. I don't know where I said that she was totally fine with the SFE now.
I know that she isn't, but IMO, and I know my dog quite well, she was 100% more comfortable with is yesterday than she has EVER been. We did it a few times, and the last one, it was quite clear that she wasn't as nervous or angry with the situation as she has been before.
It will take time to get her used to this, and plenty of praise when she does it right. That's the plan. To get as many good SFE's that I can REWARD HEAVILY to show her that that is the behaviour I want. Than reward some more.
I am more than aware and not going to trial her tomorrow. I know this. But as of yesterday, her attitude, which is what the problem is, has changed about the SFE.
She has never really gotten a huge reward for a SFE. A few times she did "OK" for ROxy and got some treats, but not near the amount she did yesterday. And it was almost like it was a totally different event for her. Like when we first trained for the retrieve. She was unsure when we were finished but was anxious for her reward. It was kind of the same thing yesterday. Am I doing it right? YES! WHooopeee! *jumps around* eats a bunch of treats.
As for the collar level, Kris knows what a Level 1 in this particular brand of collar is like, and I'm sure she could tell you it's barely perceptible. My trainer could not feel it at all, and wanted me to turn it up, she could barely feel a level 2. But the level of stimulation differs from dog to dog so it doesn't really matter as Quest stated.
Now to end this, I don't want to sound rude or blunt myself.
But none of you know Roxy. I did exhaust the positive method with her. Positive methods work great when training her to do something she likes. But she is clever, and if she's even a little uncomfortable, she will take advantage of that positive method. Roxy likes to be touched by people on her own terms, she demands when she wants to be touched, where and in what manner. With the SFE there is no choice.
And perhaps to begin she wasn't even that unhappy or that uncomfortable. But the behaviours that I've been working on, worked for her to begin with, and those behaviours grew and grew until it was clear that the methods chosen were not working. They were allowing these behaviours to get worse.
Have any of you heard the positive method for teaching a recall?
Well it was tried on Roxy for about a week. Until she figured it out. Mom calls me. When I get to her I get a treat. If I don't come when she calls, it's OK, when I do get there I'll get a treat. So, right now, the treat is my second priority, first I want to go over and sniff the mat the puppy pee'd on, THAN I'll go get a treat from mommy.
That's the method that does work on many dogs. But with Roxy, she quickly figured out, that this method, didn't demand that she come IMMEDIATELY. Just whenever she could make it by, and when she did, whenever that be, she would get a treat.
She has two lessons next week. As I said, I'm going to try to get a video. I'm sure than many of you, who already have your mind set won't change them, even if you see a dog that doesn't look *that* uncomfortable. But, than again, you never saw her SFE's when we were using the positive methods. I wonder what you all would've reccomended if you saw those.... Weeks upon weeks, hours upon hours of a positive method used, and her reaction... Either your answer would be, leave it be. It's not that important. Or spend another year on it.
RD- I can't remember because I"ve spent so long writing this post, but I seem to remember your post having to do with stress and nervousness.
As I said, yesterday my trainer said that she didn't want to stress the "watch me" as much. Too much at once, when she's already in a stressful situation. So she said, let her look at me, when I make one step towards her and stop. Say watch me ONCE. She'll glance at me, when she realizes I'm not coming any closer and she looks back at you, reward.
So with the changed method, there's not as much stress on watch me watch me watch me. But rather while we get her used to it, watch me, but if you notice her moving and you want to see where she's going, glance over and check it out. When you feel comfortable again, look back to me. If that makes any sense.
The first time, the whole time, I was stressing watch me watch me watch me. And my trainer believes it was undue stress. Watch mom, mom wants me to watch her, but I want to look over sooo bad at her... aahh! Now it's a little more relaxed so she can get comfortable.
As well yesterday, there were no sweaty pawprints on the floor when she was released.
It's clear, and I already knew that most would not agree. Doberluv, thanks for your honesty, I'd rather you tell me the truth as you did than sugar coat it
But that goes for when you see the video as well. No vice versa just because you've stated your opinions so bluntly. I don't want people to sugar coat it, but I don't want you to be so stuck in your own heads that what I've done is wrong, that you wont' ADMIT, that Roxy doesn't look uncomfortable as he!!.