"SDs" at Airport?

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#21
RBARK:
You are very good,at twisting my words.
YES,I EXPECT SD dogs to be better trained and socialized than the average dog.
If they can go everywhere,then,they should behave,accordingly.
 

RBark

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#22
RBARK:
You are very good,at twisting my words.
YES,I EXPECT SD dogs to be better trained and socialized than the average dog.
If they can go everywhere,then,they should behave,accordingly.
There's no way to twist your words. You expect them to never ever have a bad day. Not even a bad 5 minutes. You expect them to never get airsick, carsick, or just sick in general and feel touchy. You expect them to never get stressed over anything ever.

That's not a dog. That's a robot. Actually, I'm pretty sure even a robot would have problems too.

I'm just here like, wow, I've seen so many of the best trainers in the world at some point lose control of their dogs at Agility events or Obedience events. These are incredibly well trained dogs yet they fail sometimes too. These dogs are often trained constantly, every day, for 10 years of their life, and are better than the average public, yet they frequently don't qualify on their competitions, or lose control once in a while, or just have bad d ays and don't perform at all.

And they only have to perform well 2 days a week, for a 2 minute run.

Service dogs have to perform 24/7, get maybe 2-4 years of training by trainers most likely less skilled than the top Obedience/Agility performers, then are sent off with people who don't know how to train. And you expect them to be more perfect than some of the most well trained dogs in the whole world, every day of their lives, every minute?

There's expecting them to be well trained. Then there's impossible expectations.
 

Romy

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#23
NO,the airport or train station is not that tough on a well socialized,stable dog whether it is a SD dog or not.

Of all things,a trained SD dog should be confortable,in all situations and that includes airports,train station,metro,buses,etc.

TOOK Titus,twice to FR and back,with no problems,no barking fit and he went in the crate by himself.
Actually, He was complimented on how good he was by the people taking care of boarding.
This. ^^ Strider went to an airport when he was pretty fresh out of training (if training ever really stops, lol) when we went to pick up Sael back when she came to get Logan. He was all like, "Hey cool a big echoey terminal type place with people, sliding doors, and escalators. Kinda like lots of other places I've been." Eh.

Don't some airlines allow ESAs in flight though? If that's the case I could believe that a legitimate ESA would act out in an environment like an airport.
 

DogNation

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#24
So I've been sitting here in GA for two hours, and I've seen two dogs whose owners claimed they were service dogs. (No, I wasn't the one who asked.)

Dog number one was pulling on the leash and soliciting pets from strangers, which the owner encouraged.

Dog number two started a barking fit over a person too close to it. The owner brought a crate that only fit in the overhead bins, and both people had to jam the dog into the crate and hold it's muzzle shut to stop the barking.

Am I crazy or do both of these dogs NOT sound like service dogs to you?
Well, here's the thing about service dogs...

A lot of people who could legitimately use service dogs don't have a service dog for whatever reason, but do have dogs who are helpful to them and address some of their difficulties. Maybe they have physical issues and the dog helps them to do mild or moderate exercise through the pain. Maybe they have depression or anxiety and the dog calms them down. Maybe the dog reminds them when it's time to take their medicine. Who knows? A non-service dog may legitimate serve service dog like functions to where a person can really benefit from having the dog around for things and may seek the equivalent of a "mail-order college degree" certificate or a service vest bought off e-bay or something.

There are problems with this approach that I think are pretty obvious, but there's a middle ground between "blind guy with an extensively trained and certified seeing-eye dog" and "regular person trying to sneak their dog onto mass transit to save money". There are people who's doctors may certify their pet dog as having a therapeutic purpose despite it's lack of formal training, and so on and so forth, and even recommend that their patients get dogs.

A lot of people may not be able to afford to go through the formal service program or may not like the terms of it, and may not feel the need for a dog who is quite that extensively trained. A normal pet dog with some smarts and basic home training may meet their needs just as well or better. Maybe they even prefer having a dog that they can raise from a young age who isn't 100% perfectly behaved (Part of the appeal of some dogs is that they are a little mischievous and crave adventure, isn't it? :) ).

I've read that some service organizations train their dogs to not form strong attachments, and will pull the dogs periodically for weeks of retraining and give the person being helped a "loaner" dog to fill in. That's great from a functionality perspective, but it may not be the type of relationship someone wants with their dog. They might prefer a dog who forms strong attachments and will be in the home every day with them until the dog passes away.
 

LMost

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#25
Sorry but the US needs to set a standard for what is and is not a service dog.

"There are no standards or procedures for certifying a service animal under U.S. federal law. Certification is not required as a condition of using an animal as a service animal. However, the person using the animal must meet the legal (not medical) definition of "disability" and their dog must be individually trained to perform tasks that mitigate the owner's disability."

As long as it is solely based on a dog doing a task, with NO REAL TEST NEEDED you will have such issues.
 

RBark

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#26
Sorry but the US needs to set a standard for what is and is not a service dog.

"There are no standards or procedures for certifying a service animal under U.S. federal law. Certification is not required as a condition of using an animal as a service animal. However, the person using the animal must meet the legal (not medical) definition of "disability" and their dog must be individually trained to perform tasks that mitigate the owner's disability."

As long as it is solely based on a dog doing a task, with NO REAL TEST NEEDED you will have such issues.
Make a test certification requirement, everyone will get fake certifications that you can buy freely online right now already even though it's not required, and it will continue to not be enforced, and business owners will have even less rights to combat fakers than they do right now.

Or, just, ya know.... enforce the laws that already exist. SD's are not allowed to be a nuisance, and business owners are already legally allowed to remove a SD from the premises if they are being a nuisance.

The reason they don't is because they feel it's a legal and social landmine. If you require certification, they are going to be even LESS likely to enforce it because they do not want to spend the money and risk having ID's checked and training people on what the laws are.

So in other words, make certification, what happens?

Honest people will have to jump through even more hurdles than they already do to get the assistance they desperately need.

Dishonest people will get away with it easier since it's even less enforced than it already is as long as you have a online certificate you can buy for 20 bucks.
 

MicksMom

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#27
There's no SD certification, and in many states SDIT's (SD in Training) have equal rights to SD's.
Yeah, I didn't word that right. What I meant was once they become actual service dogs. I disagree somewhat about the SDITs having the same rights as SDs. They are not covered by the federal ADA laws. But, some states have laws allowing them the same access as SDs (which I didn't know until now).

Actually, no matter if these were legit service dogs or not, their handlers could have been asked to "remove" them from the premises because of their behavior. Which, in the case of air travel, means they would have had to go in the cargo hold (if I read correctly that their crates barely fit in the over head compartment).


http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
 

Julee

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#28
What about if they are SDIT's? ESA's with owners who don't really know the difference? SDIT's have equal access rights as SD's in many states.
You are twisting her words, cut it out.

Service dogs are not covered under the ADA while flying, it's the AACA (ACA? something like that). Service dogs in training are not covered, unless it's a PSD being flown as an ESA. Airports are truly not as big of a deal to the dogs as they're made out to be.

RBark, there are vests for SDITs. I know the laws are special in CA (tags for SDITs/SDs are not a thing in most other states). Vests, ID tags, ID collars, etc are not required on SDs OR SDITs. It's just a courtesy thing.

"Dog number two started a barking fit over a person too close to it. The owner brought a crate that only fit in the overhead bins, and both people had to jam the dog into the crate and hold it's muzzle shut to stop the barking."

I'm sorry, but if that's a "service dog", it isn't prepared for the flight by any means. That's not how a legitimate service dog behaves, ever.
 

Dizzy

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#29
In the UK your dog is only considered a service dog if it has been trained by one of the main organisations. You can't sling a vest on any old dog. You aren't allowed access unless it is a legit assistance dog. Full stop.
 

RBark

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#30
You are twisting her words, cut it out.

Service dogs are not covered under the ADA while flying, it's the AACA (ACA? something like that). Service dogs in training are not covered, unless it's a PSD being flown as an ESA. Airports are truly not as big of a deal to the dogs as they're made out to be.

RBark, there are vests for SDITs. I know the laws are special in CA (tags for SDITs/SDs are not a thing in most other states). Vests, ID tags, ID collars, etc are not required on SDs OR SDITs. It's just a courtesy thing.

"Dog number two started a barking fit over a person too close to it. The owner brought a crate that only fit in the overhead bins, and both people had to jam the dog into the crate and hold it's muzzle shut to stop the barking."

I'm sorry, but if that's a "service dog", it isn't prepared for the flight by any means. That's not how a legitimate service dog behaves, ever.
What exactly did I twist? You didn't say anything I disagree with.

I agree that legitimate service dogs should not behave like that, and that training should be done to avoid that. My point is that watching someone in a 5 minute, stressful window of their life is not a fair assesment of whether it's a legitimate SD or not.

I never said that the dogs in question were, in fact, service dogs. I said that such judgement should be reserved until more information is put onto the table (is this a one time thing? Is the dog sick? etc etc)

I mean really. Would you want passerby's to judge your legitimacy if your dog had a sudden atypical behavior arise? All they saw is that one moment, does that one moment make you not a legitimate SD owner?


EDIT:

And I know that there are vests for SDIT's. I never said otherwise. Case in point, my own dog...

Pictures at a Park 11/6/08 by RBark, on Flickr
 

MicksMom

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#31
...
Or, just, ya know.... enforce the laws that already exist. SD's are not allowed to be a nuisance, and business owners are already legally allowed to remove a SD from the premises if they are being a nuisance...
...
So in other words, make certification, what happens?

Honest people will have to jump through even more hurdles than they already do to get the assistance they desperately need.

Dishonest people will get away with it easier since it's even less enforced than it already is as long as you have a online certificate you can buy for 20 bucks.
:hail:
 

Julee

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#33
What exactly did I twist? You didn't say anything I disagree with.

I agree that legitimate service dogs should not behave like that, and that training should be done to avoid that. My point is that watching someone in a 5 minute, stressful window of their life is not a fair assesment of whether it's a legitimate SD or not.

I never said that the dogs in question were, in fact, service dogs. I said that such judgement should be reserved until more information is put onto the table (is this a one time thing? Is the dog sick? etc etc)

I mean really. Would you want passerby's to judge your legitimacy if your dog had a sudden atypical behavior arise? All they saw is that one moment, does that one moment make you not a legitimate SD owner?


EDIT:

And I know that there are vests for SDIT's. I never said otherwise. Case in point, my own dog...

Pictures at a Park 11/6/08 by RBark, on Flickr
What Hovawart was saying, not what I was. How you deal with an issue matters. Grabbing a dog's muzzle and shoving it into a crate to shut it up is not an acceptable response to that issue.

"They don't have a vest for SDIT's. They have a tag, as in a collar tag. I have one for Priscilla."

Who is "they"? I had thought you were saying SDITs in general don't wear vests.

Sass, I was thinking it may have been a small crate that can fit under the seats (it'd fit in an overhead bin, but hopefully wouldn't be put there..?). That's what we flew the cats in.
 
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#35
^^ Ah, that makes more sense. The couple of times I've seen SDs on airplanes they weren't crated at all and in any case stuffing a dog into the overhead bin seemed bizarre.
 

RBark

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#36
What Hovawart was saying, not what I was. How you deal with an issue matters. Grabbing a dog's muzzle and shoving it into a crate to shut it up is not an acceptable response to that issue.

"They don't have a vest for SDIT's. They have a tag, as in a collar tag. I have one for Priscilla."

Who is "they"? I had thought you were saying SDITs in general don't wear vests.

Sass, I was thinking it may have been a small crate that can fit under the seats (it'd fit in an overhead bin, but hopefully wouldn't be put there..?). That's what we flew the cats in.
Nah, that was poorly worded. I was responding to the assertion that SDIT's are required to have vests in the states where SDIT's have equal rights to SD's. I was saying that vests are not required even for SDIT's, but they do have a collar tag.

And yeah, I agree again that she dealt with it poorly. But you and I are not the typical SD owner who is interested in dog training. The typical SD owner is poorly equipped to understand how to deal with a issue like that, and it does not surprise me that it was handled poorly. After all, they came to them pre-trained and only are taught how to maintain the training.

To be honest, I have no idea which part of Hovawart's words you think I'm twisting. Unless you point it out to me I can't really respond to that.
 

Julee

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#37
Ah, gotcha. Even then, many states don't have the tag. Hovawart was trying to express that service dogs should be extremely well behaved and controlled, and any issues should be dealt with swiftly and effectively. You were going on about how she said they should be perfect, which is not what she said or meant.

Ehhh. Not many programs train small SDs, which (combined with the behavior and response to the behavior) is making me think that particular dog is not legitimate. Personally, I believe that this mass training and placing thing going on with most programs is despicable. Handing over young, barely trained dogs with questionable temperaments to disabled handlers that have a few days training... yeah, definitely a recipe for success. I hate the service dog "industry". The community isn't much better, particularly most owner trainers.

Anyways.
 
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#38
In the UK your dog is only considered a service dog if it has been trained by one of the main organisations. You can't sling a vest on any old dog. You aren't allowed access unless it is a legit assistance dog. Full stop.

Canada as well, and I have never seen someone fake a service dog here, I have seen asshole drag their dogs into places, but if they are asked to leave they leave because they have no way of faking the dog being a service dog.
 

RBark

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#39
Ah, gotcha. Even then, many states don't have the tag. Hovawart was trying to express that service dogs should be extremely well behaved and controlled, and any issues should be dealt with swiftly and effectively. You were going on about how she said they should be perfect, which is not what she said or meant.

Ehhh. Not many programs train small SDs, which (combined with the behavior and response to the behavior) is making me think that particular dog is not legitimate. Personally, I believe that this mass training and placing thing going on with most programs is despicable. Handing over young, barely trained dogs with questionable temperaments to disabled handlers that have a few days training... yeah, definitely a recipe for success. I hate the service dog "industry". The community isn't much better, particularly most owner trainers.

Anyways.
Well yeah, maybe she poorly worded it but the question was of legitimacy. Being poorly behaved in a single situation on one bad day doesn't make a the dog not legitimate. Believing that one 5 minute window to represent everything about the dog means the expectation is the dog must be perfect 100% of the time, no exception. If that is not what she means then I take it back, but that is how it sounds to me.

I just simply believe that jumping to conclusions over a single scene is rather harsh, however poorly it may have been handled. We all have bad days. I know for a fact I've done similar things out of frustration and embarrassment that I immediately regretted my poor handling of it afterward.
 

elegy

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#40
Make a test certification requirement, everyone will get fake certifications that you can buy freely online right now already even though it's not required, and it will continue to not be enforced, and business owners will have even less rights to combat fakers than they do right now.

Or, just, ya know.... enforce the laws that already exist. SD's are not allowed to be a nuisance, and business owners are already legally allowed to remove a SD from the premises if they are being a nuisance.

The reason they don't is because they feel it's a legal and social landmine. If you require certification, they are going to be even LESS likely to enforce it because they do not want to spend the money and risk having ID's checked and training people on what the laws are.

So in other words, make certification, what happens?

Honest people will have to jump through even more hurdles than they already do to get the assistance they desperately need.

Dishonest people will get away with it easier since it's even less enforced than it already is as long as you have a online certificate you can buy for 20 bucks.
Yes. This. All of this.
 

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