saturday was awesome!

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elegy

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#41
if you're correcting your dog strongly enough that he fears the correction, he's going to fear the person from whom the correction came as well.

i really don't understand why you'd want to teach your dog to fear ANYTHING. i want my dogs bold and confident. i want them to be up and driving at my side during training, i want them to be pushing, i want them to throw themselves into everything 100% and not be afraid of making mistakes. i want it to be FUN, because what's the point if it's not?
 

Labra

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#42
My dog doesn't fear ME. It fears my CORRECTIONS. There's a difference.

Here's a test:
Do this without a collar or leash on the dog.

Do a down-stay at 1000 ft. out of sight and scent of the dog for an hour. Make sure you can see the dog, but it can't see or smell you.

Do a sit-stay at 500 ft. for 20 mins. the dog can see you for this one.

Do 10 mins. of heeling.

Do recalls of 300 ft. away with no leash or collar on the dog.

-------------------------------------

Oh and my "relationship" with my dog is stronger since we started this training. He's starting to trust me more. He will listen to what i tell him the first time i tell him. It doesn't take bribery or begging to do it.

Treats don't teach a dog to like obedience. The dog likes the treat not the command.
Why would you want to do a 1000ft out-of-sight down stay anyway? I can't possibly see how that could corralate to real life.

There is nothing impressive about using fear to control your dogs. Your dogs are not working for you because they are happy. They are working because they fear YOU. Yes, they fear the correction but who does the correction come from? YOU. Your dog is "starting to listen more" because he is fearful of what is coming next. I find that terribly sad.

I would much rather have a disobedient but happy dog than an obedient but unhappy one. You are kidding yourself if you think your dogs are happy while you implement your fear based methods. Would you be happy if someone hit you with a stick for every mistake you made? of course not, so please do not be so single-minded as to assume that your dogs would.
 

Herschel

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#43
There is nothing impressive about using fear to control your dogs. Your dogs are not working for you because they are happy. They are working because they fear YOU. Yes, they fear the correction but who does the correction come from? YOU. Your dog is "starting to listen more" because he is fearful of what is coming next. I find that terribly sad.
Purdue, try this. Jump up and down and clap your hands together really loud. Does your dog tuck his tail and wait to be hit or does he think you're being goofy and roll with it?

Why in the world would you want your dog to live in fear--of you, of a correction, or anything?
 

Dekka

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#44
I am sure I could train my dogs to do that...It would be easier than some of the other things I have trained. But as asked before why? Why on earth would I want a down stay that long?

I agree with everyone, I wish my dog to obey me because I have trained them too, and because they want me too, I wish to be a good leader, fair and compassionate...You are being Hitler, or maybe Stalin by comparison.
 
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Purdue#1

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#45
Why? What in the world is the purpose of either of those exercises?

I can teach Herschel the names of 5 of his toys in 10 minutes. That doesn't mean it proves anything at all. :confused:


It proves a lot to me. Your dog should be able to handle those exercises with no breaks if he's trained the way you say he is. Richling's K-9 can do it. One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.

And the down-stay that long is to advance the dog in its training.
 

Dekka

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#46
So you see a dog scared to move and call it trained? If you see a kid who never talks (cause its whacked a lot and 'knows' the world is a scary dangerous place) You think, 'my what a polite child?' Do you wish your parents had hit you more, or do you wish they listened to you more?

Edited to add, a dog who is trained by force is not likely to be able to learn the names of their toys, because the desire to offer behaviours is squashed, the dog becomes a creature that things get 'done upon' and sits and waits to be told what to do. A dog trained fairly to be a partner will willing look to perform what is wanted. For example your dog will never be able to do 101 things to do with a box.

I guess this just confuses me, as I don't want a slave who fears me as a tyrant (gosh if I move cause this fly is annoying me-I will get whacked, best to let the fly bite me.) I want a partner who is into the training as much as me. A slave-master relationship is a relationship...but I wouldnt call it a good one.
 

mantine

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#47
And dog will not like obedience. At best it will tolerate it.
Grizzley loves his obedience training, its not something I have to force him to do, I do train with treats and while he is overly enthusiastic to do tricks when he knows I have the treats he readily does them when I don't have any treats on me either.

One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.
Why would you want your dog to stay for 3 hours? I am curious as to the purpose of this and the answer to Labras question of why you would do a down stay from a 1000 feet where the dog cannot see or smell you and Hershals request of jumping in front of your dog an clapping...what was his response to you? I agree with the others, your dog fears your correction and you because you are doing the corrections.

My dad spanked me when I was young, I didn't only fear the spanking when I knew it was coming I also feared him. Same situation.
 
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Purdue#1

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#48
Edited to add, a dog who is trained by force is not likely to be able to learn the names of their toys, because the desire to offer behaviours is squashed, the dog becomes a creature that things get 'done upon' and sits and waits to be told what to do. A dog trained fairly to be a partner will willing look to perform what is wanted. For example your dog will never be able to do 101 things to do with a box.
Yet his dog Zadok knows what his ball is. He loves his ball. And Sly knows what "get your bone" means.
 

Dekka

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#49
But you did that before... AND how long did it take? Your dog will stop offering behaviours. That is why stay is such an easy 'trick' for a punishment trained dog.
 
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Purdue#1

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#50
Then how do you explain his dog knowing what his ball is?

Oh and if you think all we do is punish our dogs, you're wrong. They get a lot of verbal praise after a command is over.
 

Dekka

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#51
And verbal praise becomes a no punishment marker. Interestingly enough praise works best on abused dogs and dogs who are trained with punishment, because it comes to mean "good you won't get whacked"
And you never answered my question. Heck you have had a few lessons, it will take time for your dog to quit offering behaviours. And if you read what I have posted, your dog won't be able to learn the name of 5 toys in a training session. Not that they won't figure it out over time.
 

Labra

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#52
One of the trainers put her dog on a down-stay with other dogs moving around for 3 hrs. It didn't move at all.
Are the purpose of this is what? more to the point, why anyone would subject a dog to sit-staying for 3 HOURS is beyond me. The only possible reason I can think of is that this so called "trainer" is feeding her ego - "Look at what my super well trained dog can do". That is not impressive - it is sad.
 
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Purdue#1

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#53
She was working with her other dog on the agility course. she didn't want it to move. she wasn't working with it at that time.
 

Dekka

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#54
I feel so sorry for her dogs... Imagine having to sit still (not move for 3 hours!)
 

Labra

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#55
She was working with her other dog on the agility course. she didn't want it to move. she wasn't working with it at that time.
I had a look at those pictures of the "agility" course. I can't for the life of me see what kind of pleasure a dog would derive from staggering up a near vertical 'ramp' like this:

 
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Purdue#1

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#56
I don't. they are as happy as can be. You can tell by the way they act that they are happy. They don't cower or are timid like you say they should. they are very confident dogs that do what their master says. they are very aware of their surroundings.
 

Dekka

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#57
Thats not agility! So there is some more misinformation your 'trainer' is giving you. An agility A frame is much less than that for the dog's safety.
 
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Purdue#1

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#58
I had a look at those pictures of the "agility" course. I can't for the life of me see what kind of pleasure a dog would derive from staggering up a near vertical 'ramp' like this:

I said it is a stress agility course. It helps the dog bond closer with its master and be able to work under stress or in stressful situations.
 

Dekka

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#59
I don't. they are as happy as can be. You can tell by the way they act that they are happy. They don't cower or are timid like you say they should. they are very confident dogs that do what their master says. they are very aware of their surroundings.
I give up! If you like whackin your dog, like the power trip then fine. We were just trying to point out that all this can be done WITHOUT harsh methods. I would prefer an e collar to actually whacking my dog.

If you chose not to see stress, and to ignore the 'facts' thats fine. I hope one day you will see that hitting a dog, is as wrong as hitting a child.
 
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Purdue#1

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#60
first off i know what an AKC agility A frame looks like.

I don't don't see stress because they work under stress and don't worry about it. We put them on down-stays on picnic tables, shoot guns, and use a megaphone that sirens on it. They don't show stress because they work under it and get used to it.

The facts are right in front of me and i do see them. The "real" facts.
 
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