Does anyone do Search and Rescue with their dog? It's something I've been really interested in as a practical/useful application for training, and a friend and I have been looking into it. We just joined the local SAR team and went to the first meeting/practice tonight and hopefully will be going to the next dog training clinic at the end of March. I'm hoping this is something well suited for Onyx's talents! I felt like it would be nice to do something productive with her drive. I also want to teach her to hunt for pine mushrooms!
Sar
- Thread starter Kootenay
- Start date
Romy
Taxiderpy
Good luck! I used to be involved not with my dogs but just as a human body for the dogs to find. It's almost a lifestyle in itself. There's a tremendous amount of time dedicated to training in the field. The local groups go out every single weekend. I couldn't afford the gear, which combined with time kept me out of the owning a dog part of it.
You're a really talented trainer and I bet Onyx will love it. As far as finding pine mushrooms, not sure if it will be a compatible behavior but with the right dog and right trainer anything is possible. If the mushroom thing doesn't work out, does Yarrow show any promise with scentwork? He wouldn't have to be around strange people to do it.
You're a really talented trainer and I bet Onyx will love it. As far as finding pine mushrooms, not sure if it will be a compatible behavior but with the right dog and right trainer anything is possible. If the mushroom thing doesn't work out, does Yarrow show any promise with scentwork? He wouldn't have to be around strange people to do it.
Interesting, I hadn't even thought about the mushrooms being an issue, I will hold off on that for now then (Yarrow is just not drivey enough, really independent and distractable....cant see it going too well, but I could give it a shot!).
The local team is very chill (and small), and they really don't get called out very often. They have never had dogs on the team, so they seemed pretty keen to help us out and make it as easy as possible. If it all works out I think it would be a really great thing, but of course we'll have to see how both our training goes (Onyx 's and mine!)
The local team is very chill (and small), and they really don't get called out very often. They have never had dogs on the team, so they seemed pretty keen to help us out and make it as easy as possible. If it all works out I think it would be a really great thing, but of course we'll have to see how both our training goes (Onyx 's and mine!)
I am a Search and Rescue Technician level II (SARTECHII) and a member of the K9 Emergency Response Teams in Wisconsin. I am training Hawkeye in live find Trailing and Lark is starting training in Human Remains Detection(HRD)
Awesome!
I remembered one question that I did have. I am also really keen on getting more into IPO with Onyx - will this be an issue? The different styles of tracking, or just being trained in a bitesport?
I really have no clue how IPO tracking is, but Hawkeye was first trained and titled in AKC tracking and it gave him a GREAT foundation for the real world stuff.
release the hounds
Active Member
I do not do sat, but know others that do. IPO tracking will not interfere with sar. Its a great foundation for any type of tracking. Most places I hear do have a problem with bitework, though I think it is completely misguided and a decision based on ignorance. I just wouldn't say anything myself.
That is really good to hear, and if all goes as planned and we can make it to the training in March, then she really won't have any bitework before then anyway. Thanks.
Romy
Taxiderpy
Tracking does interfere with SAR. Or rather, SAR interferes with tracking. Our county has a K9 tracking team that is completely separate from the wilderness SAR team.
SAR is partly tracking, but mostly air scenting. SAR dogs are strongly encouraged to air scent because in real life, people do things like fall off cliffs. I had to set up a ton of problems specific to air scenting for the dogs to follow (such as leaping off a 20' embankment into a big hole full of leaves and then bury myself with wet leaves. It took 8 hours for the dogs to find me.
)That's why the pine mushroom thing is probably incompatible. Mushroom hunting is trained very much like drug detection, where you teach them to find a specific scent and then direct the dog in a search pattern that is likely to result in the desired scent being detected. Mushrooms aren't exactly leaving a track.
On the subject of bitework and SAR, IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA. I say this after one of the other human bodies on my team went to a conference where a police force had brought their K9 to be "certified" as a SAR dog. She had to set up the problem and hide for it.
It found her all right. And darn near sent her to the hospital. She ended up injured and injured the dog trying not to end up dead. She's a tough gal and has seen a lot of crap, and that's the one time I've ever seen her actually fear for her life. TERRIBLE IDEA.
I'm not sure how far from the handler dogs doing bitework usually are, but in SAR the dog can be as much as half a mile away at times. They work off lead, whereas a tracking dog works in a harness. If your dog is doing bite sports and goes far afield, and you're not around to sort out whether it should bite the person it just found or whether it should just come get you, there are big problems. The K9 handlers who were working the dog that attacked her were nowhere NEAR them and were totally oblivious that their dog was mauling someone that it was supposed to just find. It never went back and got the handler once it found her or anything.
HayleyMarie
Like a bat outa' hell
Super interesting. Koots let me know how it does. Tyler is thinking about joining the avalanche/search and rescue team. Younger Members are severely needed and tyler has back country training.
I wonder if dogs can be used for avalanche rescue. I wonder if there is a need for dogs here.
I wonder if dogs can be used for avalanche rescue. I wonder if there is a need for dogs here.
Romy
Taxiderpy
They definitely can! The avalanche rescue team up on Snoqualmie has one that lives on site at the ski resort through the winter months. He's an indispensable part of the team.
release the hounds
Active Member
Tracking does interfere with SAR. Or rather, SAR interferes with tracking. Our county has a K9 tracking team that is completely separate from the wilderness SAR team.
SAR is partly tracking, but mostly air scenting. SAR dogs are strongly encouraged to air scent because in real life, people do things like fall off cliffs. I had to set up a ton of problems specific to air scenting for the dogs to follow (such as leaping off a 20' embankment into a big hole full of leaves and then bury myself with wet leaves. It took 8 hours for the dogs to find me.
That's why the pine mushroom thing is probably incompatible. Mushroom hunting is trained very much like drug detection, where you teach them to find a specific scent and then direct the dog in a search pattern that is likely to result in the desired scent being detected. Mushrooms aren't exactly leaving a track.
On the subject of bitework and SAR, IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA. I say this after one of the other human bodies on my team went to a conference where a police force had brought their K9 to be "certified" as a SAR dog. She had to set up the problem and hide for it.
It found her all right. And darn near sent her to the hospital. She ended up injured and injured the dog trying not to end up dead. She's a tough gal and has seen a lot of crap, and that's the one time I've ever seen her actually fear for her life. TERRIBLE IDEA.
I'm not sure how far from the handler dogs doing bitework usually are, but in SAR the dog can be as much as half a mile away at times. They work off lead, whereas a tracking dog works in a harness. If your dog is doing bite sports and goes far afield, and you're not around to sort out whether it should bite the person it just found or whether it should just come get you, there are big problems. The K9 handlers who were working the dog that attacked her were nowhere NEAR them and were totally oblivious that their dog was mauling someone that it was supposed to just find. It never went back and got the handler once it found her or anything.
it isn't much issue to get a footstep dog to air scent at all. It's about context. I train with both wilderness and urban SAR dogs that do IPO and Mondio ring though there is no tracking in ring. They are certified and have been called out and have live finds. About the only thing you'd really have to worry about is losing points in your chosen sport for a dog picking his nose up.
On the subject of bitework, I think you're misinformed as well. In the context of sport and the context of SAR any dog with a temperament to do either should have zero problems other than in people's minds. Provided you aren't stupid in training.
A police K9 that has, or should have done lots and lots of find and bite scenarios, or find and bark then subject flees or fights and they bite. in urban settings, in wooded settings, where they track then confront a bad guy, That's their training, who were the stupid ****ers that thought that would be a good idea to try and do SAR? and who were the SAR people that let them?
A sport trained dog? one that learns the context of going to a blind on a revier command to bark and bite and then does something totally different with totally different context and different commands and settings and absolutely everything about the situation is different and you don't think they can handle that? LOL
If I tell my dog to go find deer antlers and am 300 yards away and they come across a guy in scratch pants and sleeve, they probably aren't even going to glance at him out in the woods.
A sport trained dog will have zero problems with SAR, none whatsoever, again, provided you aren't an idiot in your training. Just to show how clear dogs can be with good training. We used to do all day training in schools, dogs would come in and find me. We'd fight in gyms, I'd pick them up and throw them against the metal stalls in a bathroom with no lights on, we'd fight, they'd pull me out of classrooms and down the hall. They'd out and transport me down the hall to the entry, where I would engage them again and the officers would out and pull them off and out of the building.
in the time they'd go out to their car, take off the "patrol" collars and put on their "drug" collars I'd still be standing by the door, in my suit standing 6 inches from the dogs coming in and walk with them down the halls to the rooms with the drugs. They never even sniffed at me, though 5 minutes earlier they were in major fights with me and biting the hell out of me.
Dog understand context, and there is no reason bitework for sport and SAR can't coexist. I can think of more than a handful of dogs doing it right now.
AdrianneIsabel
Glutton for Crazy
I have nothing on SAR but I train IPO tracking, scent articles, hidden item finds(where airscenting is involved), and directional retrieves. It is about context for my dogs.
I have run into issues with SAR and bitework (when we were interested) but HRD did not take an issue with bitework from what we saw.
That schutzhund dog and handler team sound undertrained and ill managed.
I can send Sloan on a "find" and she's not going to attack someone who's without a threat. I actually take offense when people assume my dogs are brainless biting machines lacking clarity in reading the scenario. :/
I have run into issues with SAR and bitework (when we were interested) but HRD did not take an issue with bitework from what we saw.
That schutzhund dog and handler team sound undertrained and ill managed.
I can send Sloan on a "find" and she's not going to attack someone who's without a threat. I actually take offense when people assume my dogs are brainless biting machines lacking clarity in reading the scenario. :/
Tracking does interfere with SAR. Or rather, SAR interferes with tracking. Our county has a K9 tracking team that is completely separate from the wilderness SAR team.
SAR is partly tracking, but mostly air scenting. SAR dogs are strongly encouraged to air scent because in real life, people do things like fall off cliffs. I had to set up a ton of problems specific to air scenting for the dogs to follow (such as leaping off a 20' embankment into a big hole full of leaves and then bury myself with wet leaves. It took 8 hours for the dogs to find me.
That's why the pine mushroom thing is probably incompatible. Mushroom hunting is trained very much like drug detection, where you teach them to find a specific scent and then direct the dog in a search pattern that is likely to result in the desired scent being detected. Mushrooms aren't exactly leaving a track.
On the subject of bitework and SAR, IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA. I say this after one of the other human bodies on my team went to a conference where a police force had brought their K9 to be "certified" as a SAR dog. She had to set up the problem and hide for it.
It found her all right. And darn near sent her to the hospital. She ended up injured and injured the dog trying not to end up dead. She's a tough gal and has seen a lot of crap, and that's the one time I've ever seen her actually fear for her life. TERRIBLE IDEA.
I'm not sure how far from the handler dogs doing bitework usually are, but in SAR the dog can be as much as half a mile away at times. They work off lead, whereas a tracking dog works in a harness. If your dog is doing bite sports and goes far afield, and you're not around to sort out whether it should bite the person it just found or whether it should just come get you, there are big problems. The K9 handlers who were working the dog that attacked her were nowhere NEAR them and were totally oblivious that their dog was mauling someone that it was supposed to just find. It never went back and got the handler once it found her or anything.
In SAR there are tracking dogs also who work on lead, in harness, and are encouraged to keep their noses down, I do that kind of SAR with Hawk. Lark on the other hand is training for air scent.
Romy
Taxiderpy
It wasn't a schutzshund team. It was a working K9 that was being handled by his paid professional police officer k9 handler. A dog that goes out and works the streets with real live criminals.
Like I said in my first post in this thread, the right dog with a very skilled handler/trainer probably CAN do it. Realistically, how many handlers/trainers have that level of skill? Really? I honestly can't think of many.
I would not recommend anyone, even a skilled trainer, attempt to do both IPO and SAR with the same dog when they don't have any experience in training a dog for either one of those things. And especially when they don't have an experienced hands on mentor to guide them through SAR training. Ideally someone would have experience or at least experienced mentors in both before attempting to combine them.
Personally, I recommend anybody who wants to get into SAR go out and be the lost person. Go set up a whole bunch of scent problems for other people's dogs before getting into it themselves. You totally can jump into it and be successful, but you will also learn a crap ton of extremely useful things that you can bring into your training if you get involved in other ways first. SAR is a huge investment of time and money for one thing, and finding out if it's something you really can stay on top of in real life is a big consideration. SAR isn't a fun weekend game to go play with your dogs. It's hard work, and people's lives are at stake.
Romy
Taxiderpy
That's why I said "or rather, SAR interferes with tracking".
It's the stupid in training part that's the key. There are an awful lot of stupid people out there.
AGREE 100%! It was definitely NOT okay.
Out of curiosity, what happens when the person they find is confused, scared, and tries to "defend" themselves/attacks the dog? It's very common to go on searches for Billy Joe the diabetic grandpa who got confused and wandered off, or people with alzheimer's. There was actually a pretty good candidate training for the team that got washed because she got too defensive if the person she found threw sticks at her, yelled, etc. The ideal response from the dogs was to just run and fetch their handler at that point. She'd advance on them with her teeth bared.
That's cool. What would they do if you sent them to find a guy in scratch pants and sleeve and you weren't there with them when they found him?
Because you guys are obviously good trainers.
There are plenty of clowns out there who aren't even close, as you can see from my friend's close call. Including paid professional clowns who should know better. I agree 100% that they can understand context. Many people told me I couldn't hunt or course my service dog borzoi, and he obviously knows the difference. Part of that is the dog and their temperament. Part of that is on the trainer/handler. The problem with combining bitework and SAR is that if one of those components is lacking in any way, you're putting people's lives at risk. Think of all the unsound dogs you've run into through the years while doing bitework. Now imagine if their owners decided they really wanted to do SAR in addition to whatever they managed to accomplish in bitework. Do you not see a train wreck in the making?
Romy
Taxiderpy
That's really interesting.
What kind of terrain do you guys work? Do you have the different specialist dogs on the same team? The SAR teams here (at least in Thurston and Lewis Co) all air scent and are off lead, and I suspect it has a lot to do with the terrain. The brush is really dense, in a lot of places you can't see your dog 10 feet from you and there are a lot of steep hills/drop offs. The brush makes working on a line problematic. Also, if someone went off a dropoff (very common) having the dog on a line and trying to follow them down without getting tangled in everything is pretty impossible. That's why in my county at least, the tracking teams are completely separate and usually only brought out for evidence searches. They don't even train with us.
Romy
Taxiderpy
EDIT: sorry the page kept timing out and it double posted. 
That's really interesting.
The SAR teams here (at least in Thurston and Lewis Co) all air scent and are off lead, and I suspect it has a lot to do with the terrain. The brush is really dense, in a lot of places you can't see your dog 10 feet from you and there are a lot of steep hills/drop offs. The brush makes working on a line problematic. Also, if someone went off a dropoff (very common) having the dog on a line and trying to follow them down without getting tangled in everything is pretty impossible. That's why in my county at least, the tracking teams are completely separate and usually only brought out for evidence searches. They don't even train with us.
Yes we have different dogs trained for different disciplines on our team. Most dogs on the team are live find Air Scent, then there are also a few HRD air scent and HRD water search. Hawkeye is the only Trailing(AKC "Tracking") dog on the team, partially because it's much harder to train Trailing than it is to train Air Scent and partly because a K9 SAR group only really ever needs to deploy one Trailing dog while they will need to deploy several air scent.
As far as terrain, we work anything non cement at this time, we have trained plowed fields, heavy woods, open prairie, mowed lawns, snow, ect.
Here is a video I took last year of one of our training runs. (I dropped the lead at the end because he was hot in scent and I was stuck in the branches lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwbmiUjdX3M
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