Pups on the way

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~Jessie~

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#41
Gah. This is just ridiculous.

Obviously the breeding was planned- and obviously, this person doesn't know the first thing about establishing a respectable breeding program.

For one, it's absolutely ridiculous to assume that you could look at a 5 month old PUPPY and already determine his good points and bad points- determine that he is the BEST match for your particular bitch. That where she falters, he excells, and that he compliments her. Nevermind the fact that you can't test for hip dysplasia or patellar luxation until the animal is two.

And in a breed where these problems RUN RAMPANT.

Siiiigh....
I also love how people will say their dog has perfect confirmation... when the dog has never been shown or evaluated by a judge. Argh.
 

IliamnasQuest

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#42
Just to add a touch more reality to this situation ..

I am very much into health testing and think ALL breeders should health test their dogs for the appropriate genetic diseases prior to breeding. Khana just had her OFA x-rays taken today even though I may never breed her. To me, if you're a breeder and you are not health testing your breeding stock, you are IRRESPONSIBLE and definitely a BYB (at best).

So I took a look at the pedigree listed for the bitch in this situation (the pedigree is on one of the scattered webpages). No pedigree was listed for the male puppy used in the breeding.

Then I went to the OFA website where the results are listed. I looked into all the dogs on the pedigree. I even tried some variations of names (like "Beaver Creek" and "Beavercreek" just in case). This is what I came up with - the information in parantheses is what I added in (sorry about the way the "pedigree" is listed, it's how I found it on the website):

Black Tear of Cheyene (No OFA certifications listed)

Sire: Beaver Creek Doc SH (No OFA certifications listed)
Dam: Christian's Cricket (No OFA certifications listed)

Grandsires:
Sweetwaters Blackboy Drae Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 2000 category D, probably PPM)
Chuck Wagon Parker Chlt (No OFA certifications listed)

Granddams:
Beaver Creeks hammerin Bepee Blk (OFA hips: E, CERF 2000)
Kim's Yauhannah Baby Blk (No OFA certifications listed)

Gread grandsires:
Rushcreek's Bronco Chief MH Blk (OFA hips: E, CERF 1993 - sire to Sweetwaters Blackboy Drae)
FC AFC Hammerin' Hawk Blk (OFA hips: E - sire to Beaver Creeks Hammerin Bepee)
Hot Fudge Sudnay Chlt (No OFA certifications listed)
Santee River Shane Blk (No OFA certifications listed)

Great granddams:
Beaver Creek's Monkey Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 1996, 1997 - dam to Sweetwaters Blackboy Drae)
Troublesome Dandy MH Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 1996, 1999 - dam to Beaver Creeks Hammerin Bepee)
Queen Of My Heart Chlt (No OFA certifications listed)
Santee River Abigail Blk (OFA hips: G, CERF 1993)

In summary:
15 dogs listed (including bitch that was bred).
7 dogs with OFA hip numbers (47%)
6 dogs with CERF's, one of those is diagnosed w/a condition (40% clear, 33% non-diagnosed)
NO OFA elbows.
NO OFA patellas.
NO OFA thyroid.
Only 33% of the first two generations in "Cheyenne's" pedigree is OFA'd hips.


And only four of the 15 dogs have any sort of title .. 27% are titled.

Those numbers just aren't very high. This is not a dog that should have been bred based on background, as far as I can tell.

Like I said, let's hope for spay/neuter requirements, limited registrations, and more consideration before any more breeding is done.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

moe

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#43
This "breeder" had every opportunity to do things right. the "breeder" could have given it time to have health tests done, shown the dogs and get them titled, the "breeder" could then have come onto this forum announced a PLANNED litter and we would have all have praised their glory for doing such a fine job, and would have earned respect from all quarters, instead the "breeder" decided to breed from dogs not of the age to breed from, not had health tests, not titled the dogs, and this was all PLANNED from the offset, IMO the OP made the post to upset members on here, as they KNEW full well they had mated the dogs INTENTIONALLY no oops litter here whatsoever, and now they want us all to think kindly upon them:yikes: from what I can make out the OP has been having financial problems in the past, so these pups are a way of making money, I hope the dam copes with the birthing process, I hope the pups are OK for their sake not the "breeders" and as for the "breeder" SHAME ON YOU.

Mo
 

Red_ACD_for_me

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#44
WOW! Lots of responses after I went to bed! I just have to say that this is the second forum I have been on where the OP's have been a long time member and have added their opinions in many threads learned far more than they have showed by still allowing there dogs to have an accidental breeding :rolleyes: I would be ashamed to post such a thing :(
 
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#45
yes, what has been done is done. I wish you much luck! And you should get some good advice, instead. :) Because she is going to have them, you will learn from your mistakes. ;) ya know? You probably will watch it next time. All you want is advice, and you should get that. I know most people are upset, but, its done, so we can't do anything about it now. So, I hope you get some more advice, because she is in labor now, and you need all the advice you can get, I am sorry I haven't helped you any. I too am ashamed at such a thing, but I do believe you need advice.
 

ChRotties

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#46
The fact that the OP would wait until the poor bitch is due to whelp to seek advice is sooo...irresponsible to say the least. Common sense would tell anyone in this situation to seek the advice of a vet or better yet, RESPONSIBLE breeders of my chosen breed.....

This poor bitch was treated as an afterthought. If in fact, the OP is using a library computer, isn't any advice offered here going to be a day late and a dollar short to start with??

These *cough*gag* breeders make me sick.
 

Miakoda

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#47
People, what's done is DONE!

Been there, done that.....C'mon people. Did any of you know since she has been a member here for awhile, that her dog was pregnant? THAT was the time to rant and demeanor, not now. Now is the time to make sure she is ready for these pups and she knows what to do and expect. And she REALLY needs to know that you are here for her if she needs you, as I once had to do.
Obviously, she KNOWS that our shelters are full of dogs, they are getting PTS every day, especially this breed, she had to have known this before the breeding took place, so, FOR the PUPPIES sake,and the mommas sake, stick around and assist.
I know no one has been totally rude YET, just wanted to say my piece before it happens. This is a time that members need to stick together, there is always a later for what need be. Hope all goes well, and hope all stay healthy.
Next time, be more careful...
Afterwards, do what you will...
Oh geez. Do you really want me to post all your contradicting lies on how your female got pregnant? Intentional, accident, gift from hubby, etc. etc. Don't even got there.

Second, I'm with the vast majority that think something should've been done to prevent this litter. The simplest thing would've been to keep them separated & I've got a friend with a 5 year old girl who understands that concept. Funny how many adults don't. But since that wasn't the case, a spay/abort should've been done. And the male neutered while at it.

Third, I'm tired of excuses. All these "accidental" bybs make themselves out to be victims. Grow up.:rolleyes:
 

joce

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#48
I'm just dissapointed.

Labbreeder came here and knew nothing and weeks later she was telling people about responcible breeding-then you do this:eek:

I also think ooops it was a mistake is a huge out-having had intact dogs all my life we have never had an ooops litter-not even a almost. And I know if it ever did happen that dog would be fixed the next day!


She knew what she should have done and knew her choices-its just sad.

As far as not everyone hip testing etc-if a dogs line is proven I have no problme buying form someone who doesn't health test. I know a couple people out here with breeds they ahve hunted or herded with for years-these farm dogs are pushed to the edge and if they have old dogs doing good at there place I won't be upsett they didn't test hips. But this is completely diffrent with someone breeding labs in there backyard.
 

stevinski

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#49
If it was a oops litter, than being the reponsible breeder you claim to be

you would have an emergency spay
 

J's crew

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#50
Another thing that upsets me is she said in the past that her dogs were outside tied up. How does she know for sure that Gunner is the sire? If the breeding took place when she was in heat, tied up, any male could be the sire. :(
 

Doberluv

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#51
Unfortunately, there are too many people in this world, who, whether they know better or not, choose to produce more puppies in an irresponsible way. These people could be led through shelter after shelter, see puppies and adult dogs getting the needle injected into them, see the miserable, lonely homeless dogs that desperately need homes and still.... put their dogs together to make more puppies. They figure, since they will get homes, it's all fine and dandy. They don't think that instead of their puppies getting homes, that maybe some of those shelter dogs could be the ones getting those homes. They don't want to think about it because that will upset their agenda of making a few bucks. And that is first and formost to them, no matter what the morals of this are.

A few people who come on these forums, planning on breeding their untested dogs can be educated, have things explained and they decide not to breed their dogs. They become educated and have morals... and putting those two things together, cause them to change course and do the responsible thing. There has to be those two factors; education AND morals. When one of those is absent, the chances are high that they'll breed substandard, untested dogs anyhow.
 
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#52
Be sure to make the buyers sign a spay/neuter contract although getting them all fixed before adopting them out (yes it can be done at 8 weeks, some dont agree with it but myself being involved in rescue & seeing plenty of papered labs up for adoption makes me believe in it) would be a better idea.

Not much else to say, nothing nice to say.

good luck.
 

Laurelin

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#53
I also think ooops it was a mistake is a huge out-having had intact dogs all my life we have never had an ooops litter-not even a almost. And I know if it ever did happen that dog would be fixed the next day!
.
I never get that excuse personally. I've had many occasions where we've had intact dogs- sometimes of both sexes. Never once have we had a litter. Never once did one of our intact males sire a litter nor did our intact females in heat EVER get pregnant. It's not that hard to keep intact dogs with no problems. The thing is you actually have to put out an effort and watch them.

Anyways, I agree, I hope the pregnancy goes alright and same with the birthing.

Everything else I want to say has been said I believe. :(
 

otch1

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#54
Agree with posts. This is rather silly. Why are these people even posting the announcement of a litter when they already know what everyone's opinion is going to be? I believe it's to solicit an interest in the puppies, in hopes someone will contact them to purchase one. They're obviously some couple that got ahold of a nice pet quality lab and decided "oh, it has papers. We can make some money off of her!" Then another breeder made the mistake of selling them another obvious "pet quality" lab without a spay/neuter contract and they're in business! They made up a kennel name, took some cute pictures, created a website and locked these 2 dogs in an apt bedroom and now have that "spring 2007 litter" they'd advertised, on the way. One's too young to breed, no health tests done, they're pet quality dogs, in an inappropriate environment with people that know very little about dogs. The best one can hope for is that they have a healthy litter and find responsible homes for them that will not try to duplicate what they did, but rather spay and neuter. Then they alter their own dogs before this happens again and they're kicked out of their apt. With the potential for a 7 to 8 pup litter, I don't know of many landlords that are going to allow up to 10 labs, pups and adults in a 2 bd. apt. Have a feeling that's why mom is being allowed to stay in closet verses them having built an appropriate whelping box in their living room. Sad.
 
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#55
I also wanted to bring up the fact that Tira is listed everywhere as "gunner's mate". Yeah I am thinking it probably isnt too accidental. Said they have been preparing for 60 days.

"and she's going to have them sometime tonight or tomorrow and we have boned up on as much info as we possibly could in the past 60 days..."

As well "Tira and Gunner hooked up 1/23 at 9pm. "

Um..they know the exact date/time, so yeah....


Um..that says planned pregnany to me.
 

bubbatd

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#56
^^^ agree ! I know people have knocked me before for saying this .... but stay away from on line kennels !!!! No one needs to sell this way if they are good breeders !
 

DanL

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#57
I like how in the "contract" that if you allow OFA to publish their results on your pup you get then you void the guarantee. Why would you not want the public to know how your pups rate?

This is a horrible situation. I feel bad for the dogs.
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#58
Well, DanL, that prevents any non passing results from being posted at OFA. You know, that discourages puppy buyers, and we certainly would not want people planning breedings to get their hands on that info, now would we?

My contract is the 180 degree opposite. Gotta check the box to release ALL results, good bad or indifferent.

Excuse me, I need to leave the desk for a moment, I'm feeling sick.
 

otch1

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#59
This post is for Lab-breeder directly. I thought I should make sure I had all of the facts before making possible assumptions. So, I did skim thru your posts. You were a pet owner with one unaltered black Lab, that then went out and bought another Lab with the intent of breeding them. These are not "champion" dogs, from Ch. lines. you do not show, you have no experience as a Lab breeder. Your posts indicate a lack of knowlege and experience about breeding dogs in general. Why, when you do not have a permanent home, do not have a kennel or even a fenced yard and are now in a 2 bd. apt, are you creating a website about your breeding business and breeding these 2 pets? I'm calling you on this because you're doing exactly as others have done and have been ridiculed for, in different threads. I read your responses to these people and you called them "backyard breeders." Referance your post #18 on thread "Breeding my chihuahuas (help!!)" I find this very hypocritical. On the otherhand, I also see you are very young and possibly having had some financial hardships. Please believe me when I say breeding dogs is not the way to try to make money. It can be heart breaking when there are medical problems you can not afford address. Testing that should be done before breeding, that you also can't afford. Or worse, if your landlord finds out you're doing this and you're evicted. An apt. is not a place to start a breeding business, even if your landlord were aware of this. I hope you will spay and neuter your pets after this litter and enjoy your dogs in some other way. Obedience competiton, agility, tracking, therapy work. They look like wonderful dogs and there are so many things you can do with them other than breeding. I understand the temptation to try to find additional income when things are tight, but you've read about the many, many people posting here that are doing the same thing and in some of your responses even you have acknowleged this is wrong. I hope you'll convince Tony altering the dogs is the right thing to do.
 

Julie

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#60
Aww.... Labbreeder, I really thought you "got" educated here at chaz... I would have expected this when you first joined, but I really thought you had a change of heart and mind.
All the people who sat here typing trying to help you learn the right ways, did we waste our time?
I had a slight idea that you might have ended up breeding them, but I would have at least thought you would have done all the medical tests, and started your dogs in something or some kind of work.

Well anyway, I sure hope everything goes well, for Tira's and the puppies sake.
 
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