Prong collars

[Sekah]

E: I wrote out a story about when I thought a prong might be best used, but I think I've thought better of it. Public forums and all that.

 

[Linds]

I think the best thing I ever did was stop trying to label what type of trainer I am.

I see it in all the camps of dog trainers and I sincerely believe if everyone worried a lot less about what type of trainer they are, if the tools or methods they use fall into that category or not and more about just training the dog in front of them to the best of their ability and to enjoy doing it we would see a whole lot less fighting and worry about things.

Seems to me when trainers start naming their methodology it and what that does or does not encompass and what you can or can not do while calling yourself that it takes a turn towards crazy town.

 

[milos_mommy]

Except that a dog wears a head halter on its face. So testing it on your arm isn't really fair IMO. I see a lot of dogs really shut down in a head halter or spend a lot of time rubbing their face in the grass, rubbing the nose strap with their paw, etc. I just can't believe that those individual dogs don't find it aversive and uncomfortable.

Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of dogs do great in head halters. But for many dogs they are just as aversive as a prong would be on another dog. And vice versa.

It's just a 100% different sensation. That's not to say some dogs (many dogs) find the halter unpleasant or uncomfortable. But it's not administering pain. I just don't think they can be compared at all. I've never heard of a halter considered a punishment, while a prong almost definitely is, whether you're correcting the dog or the dog is correcting themselves. It's like grabbing someone's face to turn them towards you VS pinching or poking their throat. They're both annoying, nobody is really going to like either, but one is actually administering pain while the other is just weird feeling and forcing some control.

Obviously I'm not *that* against prong collars, even if I doubt I'll ever use one, I don't think they should be outlawed or they're horribly cruel or that no one should use them. But I still think saying they're no more aversive than a halter or front clasp harness is comparing apples and oranges and seems like a completely inaccurate comparison to me.

 

[*blackrose]

Except that a dog wears a head halter on its face. So testing it on your arm isn't really fair IMO. I see a lot of dogs really shut down in a head halter or spend a lot of time rubbing their face in the grass, rubbing the nose strap with their paw, etc. I just can't believe that those individual dogs don't find it aversive and uncomfortable.

Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of dogs do great in head halters. But for many dogs they are just as aversive as a prong would be on another dog. And vice versa.

This. I have a head halter for Abrams purely for a public relations reason: when he's being a reactive idiot upon first leaving the car, he's less "scary" on a head halter than on a prong to people who are in thr area. He HATES it. Not much shuts him down, but he despises that head halter. And, honestly, it makes sense for him. He's less sensitive around his neck (thick, loose skin, I used to use his scruff as a hand hold when I needed him to move and he wouldn't comply as he doesn't wear a collar in the house/yard, etc.) but his muzzle is very sensitive. I can get him to back away from me purely by laying a finger at the bridge of his muzzle and applying light pressure. Holding his muzzle shut or grabbing around his muzzle to hold his head still is *extremely* aversive to him to the point he will flail and panic if it goes on for more than a few seconds, especially if he is worked up about something. (He could care less about being held under the chin, or by the head itself.)

A head halter, for him, is 10x more aversive than a prong. And I'm sure he is not the only dog where that is the case.

This is a dog, who if he wants to, could probably drag me. He has good leash manners, but I know there will be a time where something causes him to pull because I cannot control the environment. And when he does, I need to be able to effectively stop that from happening before he or I (or what he's reacting to) gets hurt. A prong is my safety net, and he's perfectly happy to wear it. A head halter? Not so much.

I'm not saying thay head halters are horrible, evil things. They aren't. But neither are prongs. I got into an argument with my friend last night (very briefly before we both said "this is dumb, let's not fight") because she was adamant that a prong was cruel and abusive because the prongs "dig in to their neck" and "cause unbelieveable pain". Um. No. Not at all. We ended our discussion with her saying, "Well, Abrams is just a masochist." That is probably true.

 

[*blackrose]

E: I wrote out a story about when I thought a prong might be best used, but I think I've thought better of it. Public forums and all that.

I pulled a prong out of my purse one day and a friend gave me a really weird look, to which I replied, "I'm in to bondage." She believed me. :rofl1:

 

[amberdyan]

This. I have a head halter for Abrams purely for a public relations reason: when he's being a reactive idiot upon first leaving the car, he's less "scary" on a head halter than on a prong to people who are in thr area. He HATES it. Not much shuts him down, but he despises that head halter. And, honestly, it makes sense for him. He's less sensitive around his neck (thick, loose skin, I used to use his scruff as a hand hold when I needed him to move and he wouldn't comply as he doesn't wear a collar in the house/yard, etc.) but his muzzle is very sensitive. I can get him to back away from me purely by laying a finger at the bridge of his muzzle and applying light pressure. Holding his muzzle shut or grabbing around his muzzle to hold his head still is *extremely* aversive to him to the point he will flail and panic if it goes on for more than a few seconds, especially if he is worked up about something. (He could care less about being held under the chin, or by the head itself.)

A head halter, for him, is 10x more aversive than a prong. And I'm sure he is not the only dog where that is the case.

This is a dog, who if he wants to, could probably drag me. He has good leash manners, but I know there will be a time where something causes him to pull because I cannot control the environment. And when he does, I need to be able to effectively stop that from happening before he or I (or what he's reacting to) gets hurt. A prong is my safety net, and he's perfectly happy to wear it. A head halter? Not so much.

I'm not saying thay head halters are horrible, evil things. They aren't. But neither are prongs. I got into an argument with my friend last night (very briefly before we both said "this is dumb, let's not fight") because she was adamant that a prong was cruel and abusive because the prongs "dig in to their neck" and "cause unbelieveable pain". Um. No. Not at all. We ended our discussion with her saying, "Well, Abrams is just a masochist." That is probably true.

This is Hugo, too. I've never used a prong but Hugo is just really physically hard. He just completely ignores pain. But he hates having stuff around his head/face. I put a birthday hat on his head once and told him to hold still and he shook and looked horribly miserable. I'm sure he personally would find a head halter more aversive than a prong. Even though the head halter doesn't cause physocal pain- it causes emotional pain and stress (in some dogs) which could totally be worse.

Basically I'm saying that I think it completely depends on the dog. I'm very against doing anything to a dog thay is so aversive that they panic and shut down.

 

[*blackrose]

In reaponse to someone saying they had never heard of a head halter being used as "punishment", I think it's a good idea to take a look at what "punishment" means. A punishment (P) is something that is either added (+) or taken away (-) to decrease a behavior.

So a head halter, by definition, is +P. A head halter is added (+) to decrease the behavior (P) of pulling.

[I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.]

So is a prong. True, the mechanisms in which they work are different, but it is still a positive punishment in technical terms.

 

[BostonBanker]

A big difference, in my mind, in regards to the "well head halters are aversive too" statement is that you can alter that with training. We already use counter conditioning to take a lot of things that dogs, by nature, find aversive (nail clipping, wearing muzzles, being picked up, etc) and make them either less aversive or make them positives. The same can be applied to wearing a halter. Of course most dogs aren't going to tolerate them well at first, anymore than a dog is going to cheerfully stand still while you clip all 18 nails the first time you try. But most things can be counter conditioned, and once you've done that, your Halti works without that stress. The prong still works off of pain, regardless of how you counter-condition it.

Now, whether someone wants to/can manage/can be bothered to do the counter conditioning - that's their decision. For sure, the prong is the quicker answer when you need a quick answer. If someone doesn't want to do the counter-conditioning, or has another reason to not use a halter, so be it; use a prong. But I do think it is a big difference, at least for my mind. I actually think that if I get a puppy again at some point, I will condition it to a halti from an early age. Easier to do it then, and I figure I'll get more bang for my buck by also teaching them to tolerate something similar to a muzzle, in case that is ever needed in an emergency.

So a head halter, by definition, is +P. A head halter is added (+) to decrease the behavior (P) of pulling.

I think the equation is generally right, although I wouldn't use the head halter (or the prong) as the 'added' part. The objects themselves don't do anything without the associated correction. But I think both would technically fall under positive punishment.

Prong: Pain/pinch is added to decrease pulling.
Halter: Pressure (from being turned) is added to decrease pulling.

 

[release the hounds]

I'm too old for these debates

a couple points, the dog decides what he doesn't like and what he does. The trainer doesn't get to decide. So there's that.

If you can't tell what you're doing, be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Just because you can't do something someone else can do, doesn't mean it can't be done or is "wrong"

your relationship can be made stronger or weaker from all sorts of ways of training. It is not dependent on the presence or absence of a particular method or tool.

There are a thousand ways to Rome.

Have fun being with your dog.

 

[milos_mommy]

In reaponse to someone saying they had never heard of a head halter being used as "punishment", I think it's a good idea to take a look at what "punishment" means. A punishment (P) is something that is either added (+) or taken away (-) to decrease a behavior.

So a head halter, by definition, is +P. A head halter is added (+) to decrease the behavior (P) of pulling.

[I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.]

So is a prong. True, the mechanisms in which they work are different, but it is still a positive punishment in technical terms.

You're right as far as the terminology, but anyone I've ever met who's a certified veterinary behaviorist and what I learned when I started pursuing a degree in ethology didn't label them as so.

A prong: (+) pain or physical sensation/correction
A halter: (-) the ability to direct your head/body in the direction you want to go/removal of control/removal of the ability to focus (physically) on a stimuli.

I guess technically it wouldn't be wrong to consider various uses of the different types of collars, but that's always the way I've seen these tools considered in studies on different types of punishment.

ETA for a dog that is innately or opposed to having anything on their muzzle or face, yeah, I might consider just being in a halter a punishment, same as a collar or harness, but since their purpose isn't to deliver discomfort, generally speaking I don't think the two are comparable. I can understand saying that for your (general your) individual dog, a halti would be bringing positive punishment to the table, or the dog finds it aversive, but in describing the tools as a whole I don't think it makes much sense to say "well a prong is no different than a halti because a lot of dogs don't like them".

 

[Maxy24]

I've never considered things like head halters or front clip harnesses training devices, as in operant conditioning, I consider them control devices or training aids (make it easier to train). I believe their purpose is to make pulling more difficult, the dog can't get as much strength behind his pulling because the harness or halter throws off their balance or turns their body/head. I didn't think the pressure was designed to actually punish the dog (as in make him choose to decrease his pulling behavior). The dog still tries to pull, he's just less productive which makes it easier on the owner. Of course as people have said, the dog decides what is punishing, some dogs may consider any tightening on their chest or on their muzzle punishing. I just didn't think that was their purpose. Prong collars on the other hand were designed to make pulling more uncomfortable or painful, they are supposed to punish the dog.


That said I don't like head halters all that much, a lot of dogs hate them and find the whole experience of having them on very unpleasant. It's not painful but can still be unpleasant enough to be unkind to the dog. Tucker would probably do alright with one, he was very easy to condition to wearing a muzzle. But I don't know if the average pet owner would be willing to put much time into counter conditioning their dog to a head halter.

 

[Southpaw]

I'm too old for these debates

a couple points, the dog decides what he doesn't like and what he does. The trainer doesn't get to decide. So there's that.

If you can't tell what you're doing, be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Just because you can't do something someone else can do, doesn't mean it can't be done or is "wrong"

your relationship can be made stronger or weaker from all sorts of ways of training. It is not dependent on the presence or absence of a particular method or tool.

There are a thousand ways to Rome.

Have fun being with your dog.

This sounds good to me!!

 

[Eleonora]

My friend wouldn't use prong collars herself. She would like to ask about what others have written:

As an example, I recently had a training client with a dog aggressive dog. Has a history of attacking other dogs. The woman is in her 50's and the dog was 15 month old, 80lb West German Showline GSD. The dog came to me with LAT training and a Halti from the previous trainer of 1 year, and was recommended to me for my experience working with the breed..../

/....This woman needs to be able to, at the very least, hold the dog safely on leash. Introduce the prong collar. Another dog is introduced at a distance within the dogs reaction threshold. As the dog approaches, she is corrected and removed from the situation for showing any excitable energy. One correction, walk away and done. If this is timed correctly and rewarded appropriately for the dog either redirecting attention or avoiding engaging in any response toward the other dog, then she is rewarded. This dog should go forward to show avoidance behavior toward the other dog. No "freaking out", no reaction, just avoidance because they have an understanding that their excited and reacting state of mind results in a correction. When they display this avoidance, the reward comes, and the dog learns that the avoidance of that behavior is what produces that reward. All at the same time, the dog will self correct for lunging and will be much less capable of knocking the owner to the ground.

I was very anti prong until I finally caved and used one with Juno for her reactivity. It made walks enjoyable for us. Once I saw the instant improvement and that a flick of the pinky was all that was needed as a correction... I became a pretty big fan of them as tools.

I agree with Alexis I use one on my dog aggressive Amstaff and wish I had brought it out sooner. I did everything that the lady in her example did but for me I also had spent tons of time training and knew it would take many more months to see more progress. The prong keeps me sane and keeps him under control. It also keeps other dogs safe.

How do or did you prevent this:

When used on a dog with reactivity, I feel like a prong collar INCREASES reactivity in most instances, and create more tension, anxiety, and even aggression towards whatever the dog is reacting to. If your dog dislikes other dogs, sees another dog with a prong collar on, and is pinched or poked in even a minimally painful or discomforting way, they're going to be like "well when I see another dog this s*** happens so I better FREAK OUT".

So my friend is interested in knowing that.

 

[Southpaw]

It's not a guarantee that your dog is going to hate other dogs just because it receives a correction from a prong collar. In my case my dog simply learned that she shouldn't act like a jerk, because she'll get a correction if she does. It was pretty simple and clear communication, and fixed in weeks what we had been struggling with for years.

Again, it was also paired with rewards. You're gonna get a correction if you're a dink, and treats are going to rain from the sky if you're not.

 

[StompinT]

So, prior to getting my latest pup (11 month old Bouvier), I was committed to employing positive only training. It's what I did with my previous pup.

He's now nearly a year old, I've worked and worked and worked on loose leash walking. He great most of the time. However, when in a situation that is novel (new park, lots of dogs around, etc) he pulls the heck out of that leash. And frankly doesn't give one hoot what I am doing behind him. Yes, I've tried to expose him to as much as possible, Daily, for 10 months. All positive. All the time.

But I am getting really, really tired of having my arm nearly ripped out of its socket when a bird flies by in a novel environment and his prey drive kicks into gear. Or a new dog is approaching and he wants to meet it. I feel like the hundreds of hours I've spent training this should have gotten me further at this point.

I am now considering the prong. But guilt is delaying the process. And as a result his exposure to new environments (which is needs) is being limited. Sigh.

 

[Southpaw]

I originally felt super guilty about using a prong. No joke, when I first got it I would put a bandana over it, and then had my friend make a cover for it - I felt like people would judge if they saw my dog wearing a prong and, based on some responses in this thread, I guess that wasn't even my irrational social anxiety talking. I just felt bad about it and like I could be doing better, but seriously at some point something had to give. I wasn't making progress and I wasn't enjoying walking my dog.

I eventually stopped caring. I think it's sad that anyone has to feel bad about using one. I would like to teach leash walking without one, but I'll always have it in my toolbox and in the future wouldn't hesitate so much about using one.

 

[milos_mommy]

I wouldn't feel guilty about using something that you researched heavily and know the pros and cons of how it works and decided it's what you need.

Personally, I'd try another device more made to control than correct (halti or harness). If your dog is terribly uncomfortable with those or they aren't working, a prong might be the best option. The way I see it, with a dog that size and age, you may end up either feeling guilty about the prong, or guilty you're not walking him because it's too hard or he's injured you.

As you describe his training, I think a prong would be a VERY temporary tool for you.

 

[Sekah]

I originally felt super guilty about using a prong. No joke, when I first got it I would put a bandana over it, and then had my friend make a cover for it - I felt like people would judge if they saw my dog wearing a prong and, based on some responses in this thread, I guess that wasn't even my irrational social anxiety talking. I just felt bad about it and like I could be doing better, but seriously at some point something had to give. I wasn't making progress and I wasn't enjoying walking my dog.

I eventually stopped caring. I think it's sad that anyone has to feel bad about using one. I would like to teach leash walking without one, but I'll always have it in my toolbox and in the future wouldn't hesitate so much about using one.

This is one of the things that really bothers me. The vitriol aimed at prong collar users isn't stopping people from using them. It's making those who choose to use them feel guilty and isolated. How does that help anyone?

 

[Elrohwen]

I originally felt super guilty about using a prong. No joke, when I first got it I would put a bandana over it, and then had my friend make a cover for it - I felt like people would judge if they saw my dog wearing a prong and, based on some responses in this thread, I guess that wasn't even my irrational social anxiety talking. I just felt bad about it and like I could be doing better, but seriously at some point something had to give. I wasn't making progress and I wasn't enjoying walking my dog.

I eventually stopped caring. I think it's sad that anyone has to feel bad about using one. I would like to teach leash walking without one, but I'll always have it in my toolbox and in the future wouldn't hesitate so much about using one.

Yep, all of this for me too.

 

[Torch]

I think the best thing I ever did was stop trying to label what type of trainer I am.

I see it in all the camps of dog trainers and I sincerely believe if everyone worried a lot less about what type of trainer they are, if the tools or methods they use fall into that category or not and more about just training the dog in front of them to the best of their ability and to enjoy doing it we would see a whole lot less fighting and worry about things.

Seems to me when trainers start naming their methodology it and what that does or does not encompass and what you can or can not do while calling yourself that it takes a turn towards crazy town.

That is a really great point.

I'm certainly not a trainer, but I agree with labeling yourself. I do what is best for me and my dogs, to hell if it's positive or negative, aversive or not. I know what their thresholds are, what they react to, and what they're comfortable with. It's more upsetting for Rhys, for example, to be jerked around on flat collar while I get increasingly more frustrated, than a quick correction on a prong.