Prong collars

Southpaw

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#21
And tell me, how is a prong properly fitted?

Also, I nearly stopped my car the other day when I saw a woman out walking her dog with a prong and a flexi lead. Good god. What the hell is wrong with people?
It should be fitted snugly at the base of the skull, right behind their ears. Most people have them way too low and/or too loose.

I was very anti prong until I finally caved and used one with Juno for her reactivity. It made walks enjoyable for us. Once I saw the instant improvement and that a flick of the pinky was all that was needed as a correction... I became a pretty big fan of them as tools.

This is where Cajun's prong sits
17652938714_e7fc42111c_o by cinSun9, on Flickr

I see a loooot of people who have it dangling like a necklace, loose enough that they can slide it over the dog's head. And I'm not even sure why people use it this way because it's not going to be effective, at all, so what is the point?
 
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meepitsmeagan

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#22
I don't particularly like them, and while I wouldn't scream "Abuse!" because someone is using them...I'm probably a little judgmental about it in my head. I'm not against them to the extent that I think they should be banned from the world or anything however.

I've never used one and hopefully never will need to. But we all know that dogs like to smash right through our "I would never" boundaries, so I suppose some day I may change my mind. I hope not, and I'm not inclined to think I will based off the dogs I can see myself owning.
This basically sums up my thoughts on the subject.
 

amberdyan

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#23
I used to be pretty judgmental about them, I think it was because I saw a lot of people using them incorrectly (yanking on an ill fitted one hard, multiple times in a row), or people using them with a dog that was super shut down and not receiving it well. I think if you know the tool, and you know you're dog, then they are a fine training/management tool. Emphasis on knowing your dog. I honestly think Hugo would probably handle a prong well, he's a pretty physically hard dog. However, I'm 100% sure he would find a head halter incredibly aversive and would just shut down. He hates having stuff on his head/face. It took me months to get him okay with me passing a harness over his head, and he still cringes and looks uncomfortable until it's passed his head.

I haven't ever used anything but a flat collar and I do hope I never have to.

I've never used one on any of my dogs. I don't have any problem with other people using them on their dogs, assuming they're not being idiots with them. I've said as much on the internet to a largely R++++.... audience and was just about crucified for it. So, that was fun.
I saw that on Cohen's page.... People got ridiculous. I was kind of shocked that they reacted so strongly and just so rudely. For people who are so against aversive training, they were being pretty aversive themselves.
 

xpaeanx

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#24
I saw that on Cohen's page.... People got ridiculous. I was kind of shocked that they reacted so strongly and just so rudely. For people who are so against aversive training, they were being pretty aversive themselves.
It never ceases to amaze me how people can see how reward based training helps dogs, but are then anything but in dealing with people. LOL.

Unless someone is actively hurting their dog/putting them in a position to hurt others, I don't particularly find it my place to say anything to them. If someone seeks my advice that's different. So I'm just kind of "meh" on most things.
 
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#25
If I do use one, I don't intend to actively leash correct him. I think I would let him "correct" himself by pulling forward, kwim?
 

SpringerLover

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#26
I used one many years ago. Likely won't use one again. It created a lot more problems than it solved.

I haven't ever had a situation where I've felt like I need to use one with my own dogs again.

The only instance I would expect I'd consider it is a dog with well ingrained ping pong leash walking behaviors?
 

teacuptiger

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#27
If I do use one, I don't intend to actively leash correct him. I think I would let him "correct" himself by pulling forward, kwim?
This is what a lot of people, myself included, do. Hold the leash so the dog has room to keep them in position, and put your thumb in your pocket. If your dog moves too far, they end up correcting themselves and learn pretty fast where they need to stay.
 
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#28
I used to use them.....wont again. It did definitely up the reactivity in my husky/golden/whatever mix. I do know how to correctly use them and DID correctly use them under advice from well known and respected trainers...still wish I hadnt.

I dont think people who use them are awful or abusive or anything, but yes, I admit I cringe a bit internally when I see them.
 

Torch

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#29
I'm for prong collars in most instances, be it a working dog or a training client. I'm also all for having good timing for balancing correction vs reward, and proper use.

I think its a common conception that reactive dogs are not candidates for prong collars because it increases reactivity due to "pain" of the correction, and I personally disagree for the majority of those cases.

As an example, I recently had a training client with a dog aggressive dog. Has a history of attacking other dogs. The woman is in her 50's and the dog was 15 month old, 80lb West German Showline GSD. The dog came to me with LAT training and a Halti from the previous trainer of 1 year, and was recommended to me for my experience working with the breed. Upon observation, this dog would offer attention at various distances for food reward, but the threshold under 10 feet was unattainable, and at this point, the dog had previously lunged against the head collar and was able to not only injure the handler in pursuit of another dog, but inflict multiple wounds on the dogs she made contact with.

Now sure, this woman could continually work on LAT training to break that threshold. We are now talking extensive months of training with an injured handler and a dog capable of pulling this woman to the ground. The dog would also have to be muzzled, in case she was able to pull to the other dog or break away from the handler (requiring additional home training of desensitizing to the muzzle).

This woman needs to be able to, at the very least, hold the dog safely on leash. Introduce the prong collar. Another dog is introduced at a distance within the dogs reaction threshold. As the dog approaches, she is corrected and removed from the situation for showing any excitable energy. One correction, walk away and done. If this is timed correctly and rewarded appropriately for the dog either redirecting attention or avoiding engaging in any response toward the other dog, then she is rewarded. This dog should go forward to show avoidance behavior toward the other dog. No "freaking out", no reaction, just avoidance because they have an understanding that their excited and reacting state of mind results in a correction. When they display this avoidance, the reward comes, and the dog learns that the avoidance of that behavior is what produces that reward. All at the same time, the dog will self correct for lunging and will be much less capable of knocking the owner to the ground.

Obviously there are dogs that are not going to respond to every training method. Plenty may respond with LAT and +reinforcement alone, but when its a large and dangerous dog, I don't try and baby foot around the issue. My main concern is applying the necessary control to keep that dog, the handler, and anything around them safe. And if the dog understands a black and white correction of what not to do, then its the safer alternative. And obviously any misuse and constant pressure/nagging corrections on a prong collar is not something that I'm an advocate of.

I also don't consider head collars "non-aversive". There are plenty of dogs that refuse to be conditioned to a head collar on a lead, and I've seen teeth knocked out, blown blood vessels in the eyes and nose, smashing heads against the ground etc in avoidance of a head collar.

I do use +reinforcement with a dog who has a higher level of drive to work for that reward. But if they don't want the cookie, I'm not shoving it down their throat to call it positive only training.
I agree with Alexis :) I use one on my dog aggressive Amstaff and wish I had brought it out sooner. I did everything that the lady in her example did but for me I also had spent tons of time training and knew it would take many more months to see more progress. The prong keeps me sane and keeps him under control. It also keeps other dogs safe.
 
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#30
I've never used one before, but I'm definitely not against them. I would never use one on Fable because she doesn't need it (I lucked out with a dog that naturally doesn't pull on leash) and she's so soft I think it would do more harm than good, but that doesn't mean that I won't use one on a future dog.

Prongs are a training tool just like head halters, front clip harnesses, e-collars, etc. and should be used properly by people who know what they're doing. Any one of those tools that is misused is going to cause damage to the handler, the dog, or others, but when properly used, they can be great assets.
 

JacksonsMom

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#31
1. Indifferent. I haven't spent enough time around them in use to make a judgment. I know people I respect who use them and I don't think anything less of them, if that matters.

2. No. Why not? Seems totally pointless and dangerous given my dogs' sizes. Will I use one in the future? Who knows.
This.
 

milos_mommy

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#32
I just want to state that I would definitely use a prong collar before a choke collar.

And, even when using a halter, I try my hardest to desensitize the dog to it. Obviously if the dog is a whack job on leash, that's not going to be an option.

I pretty strongly believe in training with no positive punishment. I just don't see it as necessary or helpful, at least not with the type of dogs I currently work with. Maybe I'd feel differently if I was working with working dogs in a different environment and more extreme methods are needed to keep everyone safe.
 

ACooper

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#33
1. Not against them as long as the person is using them appropriately.

2. Yes, I would and do use a prong collar on Orson. It wasn't my first choice, I tried several different things before a prong but I wish I had tried it sooner!

For two years I struggled every. single. day. on our walks. I tried and tried and finally gave in to the prong and VIOLA! Instant success. I DO NOT do leash corrections of any kind with the prong....I let HIM correct himself. It really upsets me when I see others do a leash pop with a prong.

Also, StompinT...I want to say I use a flex lead with his prong collar when we are camping/hiking. I like to give him room to sniff all the things and explore but be able to shorten it back down if we encounter other explorers.

Just like prong collars, I am a fan of flex leads WHEN THEY ARE USED RIGHT and in the appropriate settings :)
 
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#34
My issue with Flexi leashes and prong collars is simply that by nature of it's design, a flexi puts some pressure on the collar at all times. Not a lot, but a little. Or at least all the flexi leashes I've ever come across have.
 
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#35
Oh, and I should mention I use a flexi with my senior shih tzu all the time. :) When I walk the two dogs together (15 lb shih tzu and 87 lb Bouvier puppy) I have my shih tzu on a flexi and she walks 5-10 feet in front of us. She has PERFECT voice control, and I can direct her this way, and that way, around poles, etc easily. Obviously I don't walk them together in busy places, where that wouldn't work. But I've found it's the only way to walk the two of them together, given their enormous size difference.
 

teacuptiger

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#36
My issue with Flexi leashes and prong collars is simply that by nature of it's design, a flexi puts some pressure on the collar at all times. Not a lot, but a little. Or at least all the flexi leashes I've ever come across have.
Exactly. Constant pressure at all times. I don't even use flexis on a collar at all- if I have a dog (that I'm sitting), who's owner uses a flexi, I put the dog in a harness. Even if the dog doesn't mean to be pulling, unless you have the flexi locked so there's slack in the line, the dog is pulling either way.

So with a prong collar, a flexi would be giving the dog a correction the ENTIRE time. The prong isn't designed to be used like that. It's designed so that when there is tension, it gives a correction, and the dog learns to avoid putting tension in the leash. That is why the prong is effective- when used correctly, your dog will walk beside you because beside you they don't get prongs in their neck.
 

*blackrose

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#37
Exactly. Constant pressure at all times. I don't even use flexis on a collar at all- if I have a dog (that I'm sitting), who's owner uses a flexi, I put the dog in a harness. Even if the dog doesn't mean to be pulling, unless you have the flexi locked so there's slack in the line, the dog is pulling either way.

So with a prong collar, a flexi would be giving the dog a correction the ENTIRE time. The prong isn't designed to be used like that. It's designed so that when there is tension, it gives a correction, and the dog learns to avoid putting tension in the leash. That is why the prong is effective- when used correctly, your dog will walk beside you because beside you they don't get prongs in their neck.
Eh, you can use the "dead ring" on the prong so the collar can't tighten. That's actually how I've always used it (never needed a correction with it "live".) So while I still personally wouldn't use a flexi with a prong (I use a prong to allow up close control in crowded areas, not in areas where I'd be utilizing a flexi), the amount of force a flexi is putting on a dead ringed prong is probably very minimal (with a large breed dog) and, honestly, if I did it with Abrams he would probably never even notice.

So while I still scratch my head at flexi + prong combo, I don't think in all circumstances it is a horrible combination. Don't think it's the right combo, but not the end of the world on the right dog. (Still don't see the point, though.) When Abrams is on his long line or flexi, we switch to his collar. If we enter a situation where I want more control (during hiking or the beach) he's called in and switched to a short lead on his prong.
 

Elrohwen

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#38
Eh, you can use the "dead ring" on the prong so the collar can't tighten. That's actually how I've always used it (never needed a correction with it "live".) So while I still personally wouldn't use a flexi with a prong (I use a prong to allow up close control in crowded areas, not in areas where I'd be utilizing a flexi), the amount of force a flexi is putting on a dead ringed prong is probably very minimal (with a large breed dog) and, honestly, if I did it with Abrams he would probably never even notice.

So while I still scratch my head at flexi + prong combo, I don't think in all circumstances it is a horrible combination. Don't think it's the right combo, but not the end of the world on the right dog. (Still don't see the point, though.) When Abrams is on his long line or flexi, we switch to his collar. If we enter a situation where I want more control (during hiking or the beach) he's called in and switched to a short lead on his prong.
All of this. It's not something I would do often or if I didn't have a really good reason, but I don't think it's the most horrible thing. The part that bugs me is that the dog can get up a good head of steam and hit the prong after running 20ft and get a really hard correction, but it's the same on a long line. I don't think the amount a flexi pulls normally would have any effect, even on a medium sized dog.

I also use the dead ring. I actually clip the leash to both rings on the prong, and to his limited slip collar, which deadens the correction even more and gives me a back up if the prong popped open. Only very occasionally have I needed more control than that.
 

ACooper

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#39
I can't say I'm experienced in all things Flexi, but the recoil in the flexi I personally use on Orson is as close to negligible as it gets. Honestly, he gets more pressure/correction on his leather lead from his own pulling than he's ever experienced with the flex.

I also wanted to say in my earlier post, whoever said (can't remember now) they'd rather use a prong as opposed to a choker....YES, I agree! I see so many dogs on a choke, gasping for air and still pulling their little hearts out :(
 

teacuptiger

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#40
Yeah, I've only ever used the dead ring. I don't think the majority of dogs need to be put on the live ring, the dead ring gives plenty of correction itself. All you need is to flick your finger or give very light pressure, and that's more than enough of a correction for most dogs.

My point with the flexi+prong combo is, why? What are you teaching your dog when you attach a flexi to a training collar?
 

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