Prong collars

[milos_mommy]

I figured we might need an appropriate place to hash out this debate and discuss our thoughts on prong collars.

1. Would you consider yourself against, or for, the use of prong collars in training (by someone who knows how to correctly use this tool)?

2. Have you ever used one on your own dog(s)? Tell us a little bit about why, the methods you used along with it, why you made the choice, and how it worked out.

And if you want, write a little bit about why you think they work/don't work/shouldn't be used etc.

PLEASE KEEP IT RESPECTFUL AND DO NOT ATTACK OTHERS BASED ON THEIR ANSWERS IN THIS THREAD.

 

[milos_mommy]

I'm pretty against the use of prong collars, but not so much that I'd label myself as so? I avoid using them, I don't typically recommend them, and I think in most situation other training tools and methods are more effective, and I also do believe negative results can come out of a prong collar's use on many dogs.

That said, I do believe there are (not very common, particularly not with pet dogs) situations in which a prong collar might be the best option to assist with training.

When used on a dog with reactivity, I feel like a prong collar INCREASES reactivity in most instances, and create more tension, anxiety, and even aggression towards whatever the dog is reacting to. If your dog dislikes other dogs, sees another dog with a prong collar on, and is pinched or poked in even a minimally painful or discomforting way, they're going to be like "well when I see another dog this s*** happens so I better FREAK OUT".

The same scenario with soft dogs. A lot of soft dogs can react in ways that could seemingly be helped by a prong - pulling, lunging, even reactivity - and it's just exacerbated.

Dogs who are more hard headed and are exhibiting undesirable behaviors (pulling, lunging, barking) because of excitement/demanding, I can understand the use of the prong more. But again, I'd likely use this as a last resort. Even if it was difficult to physically control the dog, I'd try non-adversive tools to gain control first.

 

[GatorDog]

I'm for prong collars in most instances, be it a working dog or a training client. I'm also all for having good timing for balancing correction vs reward, and proper use.

I think its a common conception that reactive dogs are not candidates for prong collars because it increases reactivity due to "pain" of the correction, and I personally disagree for the majority of those cases.

As an example, I recently had a training client with a dog aggressive dog. Has a history of attacking other dogs. The woman is in her 50's and the dog was 15 month old, 80lb West German Showline GSD. The dog came to me with LAT training and a Halti from the previous trainer of 1 year, and was recommended to me for my experience working with the breed. Upon observation, this dog would offer attention at various distances for food reward, but the threshold under 10 feet was unattainable, and at this point, the dog had previously lunged against the head collar and was able to not only injure the handler in pursuit of another dog, but inflict multiple wounds on the dogs she made contact with.

Now sure, this woman could continually work on LAT training to break that threshold. We are now talking extensive months of training with an injured handler and a dog capable of pulling this woman to the ground. The dog would also have to be muzzled, in case she was able to pull to the other dog or break away from the handler (requiring additional home training of desensitizing to the muzzle).

This woman needs to be able to, at the very least, hold the dog safely on leash. Introduce the prong collar. Another dog is introduced at a distance within the dogs reaction threshold. As the dog approaches, she is corrected and removed from the situation for showing any excitable energy. One correction, walk away and done. If this is timed correctly and rewarded appropriately for the dog either redirecting attention or avoiding engaging in any response toward the other dog, then she is rewarded. This dog should go forward to show avoidance behavior toward the other dog. No "freaking out", no reaction, just avoidance because they have an understanding that their excited and reacting state of mind results in a correction. When they display this avoidance, the reward comes, and the dog learns that the avoidance of that behavior is what produces that reward. All at the same time, the dog will self correct for lunging and will be much less capable of knocking the owner to the ground.

Obviously there are dogs that are not going to respond to every training method. Plenty may respond with LAT and +reinforcement alone, but when its a large and dangerous dog, I don't try and baby foot around the issue. My main concern is applying the necessary control to keep that dog, the handler, and anything around them safe. And if the dog understands a black and white correction of what not to do, then its the safer alternative. And obviously any misuse and constant pressure/nagging corrections on a prong collar is not something that I'm an advocate of.

I also don't consider head collars "non-aversive". There are plenty of dogs that refuse to be conditioned to a head collar on a lead, and I've seen teeth knocked out, blown blood vessels in the eyes and nose, smashing heads against the ground etc in avoidance of a head collar.

I do use +reinforcement with a dog who has a higher level of drive to work for that reward. But if they don't want the cookie, I'm not shoving it down their throat to call it positive only training.

 

[straw]

Pretty much gonna echo exactly what milos_mommy said there.

There's no way to deny that they are an aversive tool. The reason they work is because they apply pain or discomfort. There is a place for aversives in every toolbox, but personally, I will only use them as a last resort and in a case where the end is worth the means. For physical control, I think there are a whole lot of avenues that could be explored first.

I used to use prongs almost exclusively when I first started fostering and was dealing with big ol' teenaged pit bulls fresh out of the shelter with no leash manners. That was maybe four or five years ago?

Since then I've become a little more patient and (in my opinion) realistic. I don't need dogs to learn to walk perfectly RIGHT NOW. I have a couple weeks. And honestly, when I'm training using markers and rewards, -I- have a lot more fun (ESPECIALLY with reactive dogs), and the dogs seem happier too. So that's my choice.

 

[Elrohwen]

1. I'm not for or against really. I think they are appropriate and good tools when used by the right people. I think they can also be used incorrectly and unnecessarily. If I'm only answering regarding people who know how to use them and use them humanely, then I guess I'm for them. I would try other methods first if possible though. I know some who put them on every dog, even puppies, and I don't see the point in that at least for how I train.

2. I own one and use it on my dog often. For over a year he was just an idiot adolescent who would pull my arm off if he was excited. He would hit the end of a leash over and over again with all of his weight and he wasn't even being reactive - he would just it in an empty open field because he was excited and wanted to run. I've used no pull harnesses but I really didn't like how they threw off his gait. I got a prong a year ago and used it daily for a long time. Now he's to the point of walking with a flat collar on our daily walks and I only use it in situations where I know he will be overstimulated and crazy, or where I need more control like in a busy area with lots of people and dogs around.

I don't use it as a training tool so much as a management tool. I don't really use it to correct him, but he's a soft dog anyway. I don't use it to train any obedience behaviors. I only use it stop him pulling and lunging. When he can't pull and lunge, he actually has to stop and think and use impulse control and that has built on itself with time.

I do think it can increase reactivity if used incorrectly, and I have seen him hit the end once or twice while lunging at a dog and then get more reactive. I work very hard to have that not happen and it hasn't happened more than twice. I can see that part of it going wrong in inexperienced hands with someone who just let the dog hit the end of the leash lunging and barking and didn't do any other training. With an experienced trainer I don't have an issue with using it for that purpose.

I think you can also shut a soft dog down quickly using corrections on a prong collar, but that is what some pet people want. That's not what I want, so I do not use it for that purpose in training 99% of the time. Not all dogs are as soft as he is though and can handle using it for some correction. That's just how I train with my particular dog.

ETA: Pretty much every no pull device is aversive in some way. Even walking on a flat collar can be a bit aversive if you use something thin like rolled leather or a martingale that tightens. Prongs just look scarier.

 

[GatorDog]

1. I'm not for or against really. I think they are appropriate and good tools when used by the right people. I think they can also be used incorrectly and unnecessarily. If I'm only answering regarding people who know how to use them and use them humanely, then I guess I'm for them. I would try other methods first if possible though. I know some who put them on every dog, even puppies, and I don't see the point in that.

2. I own one and use it on my dog often. For over a year he was just an idiot adolescent who would pull my arm off if he was excited. He would hit the end of a leash over and over again with all of his weight. I've used no pull harnesses but I really didn't like how they threw off his gait. I got a prong a year ago and used it daily for a long time. Now he's to the point of walking with a flat collar on our daily walks and I only use it in situations where I know he will be overstimulated and crazy, or where I need more control like in a busy area with lots of people and dogs around.

I don't use it as a training tool so much as a management tool. I don't really use it to correct him, but he's a soft dog anyway. I don't use it to train any obedience behaviors. I only use it stop him pulling and lunging. When he can't pull and lunge, he actually has to stop and think and use impulse control and that has built on itself with time.

I do think it can increase reactivity if used incorrectly, and I have seen him hit the end once or twice while lunging at a dog and then get more reactive. I work very hard to have that not happen and it hasn't happened more than twice. I can see that part of it going wrong in inexperienced hands with someone who just let the dog hit the end of the leash lunging and barking and didn't do any other training. With an experienced trainer I don't have an issue with using it for that purpose.

I think you can also shut a soft dog down quickly using corrections on a prong collar, but that is what some pet people want. That's not what I want, so I do not use it for that purpose in training 99% of the time. Not all dogs are as soft as he is though and can handle using it for some correction. That's just how I train with my particular dog.

ETA: Pretty much every no pull device is aversive in some way. Even walking on a flat collar can be a bit aversive if you use something thin like rolled leather or a martingale that tightens. Prongs just look scarier.

ALL OF THIS. What are you doing in my head?!?!

 

[Red.Apricot]

Because of my history with competitive obedience and the way I've seen them used most often, they make me uncomfortable. Because of the size and temperament of dog I prefer, it is unlikely I will ever use one. Because they're not something I use, I don't recommend them to people. That's not the same as villainizing people who do use them, though. :]

 

[Elrohwen]

ALL OF THIS. What are you doing in my head?!?!

Hahaha.

It's funny that I went into this dog wanting to do all positive training and it took me 1.5 years to try a prong and 2.5 years to try an ecollar. Now I use both regularly and, imo, humanely. They have really helped my dog and our relationship. I'm much more open minded about these things now, though I do think there are a lot of idiots who use them incorrectly and they do have a lot more potential for fallout than many other tools.

Could I have trained without them? Probably without the prong, but I certainly tried for a long time to not use one. I don't think I would have off leash reliability without the ecollar though, just knowing my own dog. Again, I put in the work and it wasn't a quick fix.

 

[FG167]

1. Would you consider yourself against, or for, the use of prong collars in training (by someone who knows how to correctly use this tool)?

2. Have you ever used one on your own dog(s)? Tell us a little bit about why, the methods you used along with it, why you made the choice, and how it worked out.

I'm for prong collars in most instances, be it a working dog or a training client. I'm also all for having good timing for balancing correction vs reward, and proper use.

I think its a common conception that reactive dogs are not candidates for prong collars because it increases reactivity due to "pain" of the correction, and I personally disagree for the majority of those cases.

In answer to the questions, I am just going to quote Alexis. I use them, I like them, I think they have a time and place (I also use ecollars). Eden is the only dog that has never had one and that's because she is easy in pretty much EVERY sense of the word and she weighs 25 lbs. Even Limit has been introduced to a pinch. The GSDs train in obedience and in protection with them and I can use them to help cap a dog, shut a dog up, or build drive. I find them versatile and know how to use them.

 

[Laurelin]

1. Indifferent. I haven't spent enough time around them in use to make a judgment. I know people I respect who use them and I don't think anything less of them, if that matters.

2. No. Why not? Seems totally pointless and dangerous given my dogs' sizes. Will I use one in the future? Who knows.

 

[Linds]

I've used them and will probably continue to use them.

I don't really ever train with one, like Elrohwen said I use it as a management tool. I hate training loose leash walking, so if I'm going to be in a crazy environment and I need them to not be crazy over stimulated I'll use one to make managing them easier.

Honestly, at the end of the day I prefer them over most other management devices (Harnesses, gentle leaders, choke chain etc.) for ease of use and ability to control the dog when they are stronger than you. Even when average joe uses one wrong I tend to not see much fallout from most dogs.

I don't think every dog or human needs to use one. But, it doesn't bother me when they do and if gets the crazy puller out of the house for some exercise when they would otherwise not go because they are too hard to walk I'm ALL for it.

I had a women with a 100lb Bloodhound in my class who broke his flat buckle twice. The women was an older lady and tiny and the dog couldn't even work on anything because he was too busy pulling in every direction.

She got a prong, we fitted it and it worked great. She didn't use it for correction, just to be able to handle him and it made a world of difference.

And to be honest, I wish they had a better rep. People seem ok with choke chains and use them all the time wrongly and the dog just keeps pulling and choking themselves. A prong collar would work so much better and be a lot better for the dogs neck.

Basically, they are a tool. I may not use one often or ever to train but I don't deny they can work depending on what you want and how you use it. It can be abused, it can work wonders.

 

[Southpaw]

I might come back later cuz im on my phone, but just want to add that I've used one on my reactive dog (who now, even without a prong, very rarely reacts to other dogs). There were no problems created from it. She finds regular harnesses aversive so a tool is only aversive if the DOG thinks so. Neither of them get upset about having a prong put on.

 

[FG167]

People seem ok with choke chains and use them all the time wrongly and the dog just keeps pulling and choking themselves. A prong collar would work so much better and be a lot better for the dogs neck.

Basically, they are a tool. I may not use one often or ever to train but I don't deny they can work depending on what you want and how you use it. It can be abused, it can work wonders.

So much this. I see people refuse to use a pinch and watch them use a choke chain and I consider it so much less humane. So much.

Just like any tool...I think that needs to be emphasized again - it can be abused, it can work wonders.

 

[Maxy24]

I am generally against them. I don't use or like the use of collar corrections, so obviously I don't like using prong collars to give collar corrections. For leash pulling I could only see myself recommending a prong in situations where the dog is stronger than the owner and capable of dragging the owner or pulling them over and less aversive tools (no pull harness, perhaps a leash wrap if the dog doesn't find that more aversive) do not give the owner enough control. I still don't LIKE them but the owner needs to be able to control the dog or else they're not safe. I don't like them because I don't like the use of pain in training, so mainly philosophical reasons. I know they can work, they can be the most efficient tool for some dogs and behaviors (I'd say most people that choose to use them have good success, or at least don't see any bad side effects), but for me if there is a pain free way to get what I need I will choose that. I have tried using corrections before with Tucker for being a reactive jerk (not with a prong collar, I have never used a prong collar), even when they do work I feel like crap, he looks miserable, it's just not what I want, I feel like I'm mistreating my dog. Guess I don't have the stomach for it. I also agree that there is potential for unintended bad consequences if the dog learns to associate the pain with people/dogs/other situations and not with his behavior, though that likely happens more when they are used incorrectly. But I'd say the average prong collar user isn't using it perfectly.

 

[*blackrose]

1. Would you consider yourself against, or for, the use of prong collars in training (by someone who knows how to correctly use this tool)?

I would say that I am for, or at the very least not against. Hahaha I get upset when I see dogs come in to the clinic with ill fitted prongs, or wearing a prong collar like it is an every day collar. Just NO. Nononononononono. But, I think they are a great tool and that people who understand how to use them correctly should be more than welcome to do so.

2. Have you ever used one on your own dog(s)? Tell us a little bit about why, the methods you used along with it, why you made the choice, and how it worked out.

Abrams wears a prong pretty much any time we go out in public, so yes, I do use them. I don't "train" with them per say (at home I don't even train with a leash/collar on), but I do use them when in public to a.) offer me better control and b.) offer corrections when I feel they are necessary. I would say, however, my biggest reason for using it is for the control aspect.

I keep trying head halters because I just feel like that is the "right" way to work on leash manners/handle a dog that could knock you over and drag you if he wanted/reacts to weird things. Every single dog (3) I have tried a head halter on, however, have hated it. Hated. It. Flailing, shutting down, increased reactivity, etc. Maybe I'm just not using it correctly. Maybe my counter conditioning techniques are failing. I don't know. All I know is that my dogs respond well, and have no issues with, wearing and receiving corrections while wearing a prong so that is what I use. The one dog of mine that did do okay with a head halter, I wish I had used a prong, because the head halter rubbed her nose hair thin and I felt numerous times that it was restricting her panting (dang loose jowels).

I also really dislike normal chest halters because I hate not having control of my dog's head while in public. So while a "control" type harness may offer me more, well, control in a certain sense, I just don't like not being able to control my dog's head.

And I'd much rather see a prong used, even fitted poorly, than a poorly fitted/used check chain. Holy cow, do I want to slap some people upside the head when I see them bring in a dog on a choke collar with the dog pulling every which way choking itself. Um. No. That is not how you use these, thank you very much.

 

[Sekah]

I've never used one on any of my dogs. I don't have any problem with other people using them on their dogs, assuming they're not being idiots with them. I've said as much on the internet to a largely R++++.... audience and was just about crucified for it. So, that was fun.

 

[StompinT]

Love reading this thread. Love it.

 

[StompinT]

And tell me, how is a prong properly fitted?

Also, I nearly stopped my car the other day when I saw a woman out walking her dog with a prong and a flexi lead. Good god. What the hell is wrong with people?

 

[BostonBanker]

I don't particularly like them, and while I wouldn't scream "Abuse!" because someone is using them...I'm probably a little judgmental about it in my head. I'm not against them to the extent that I think they should be banned from the world or anything however.

I've never used one and hopefully never will need to. But we all know that dogs like to smash right through our "I would never" boundaries, so I suppose some day I may change my mind. I hope not, and I'm not inclined to think I will based off the dogs I can see myself owning.

 

[teacuptiger]

1. I'm not against their use if you know what you're doing, use a properly sized and fitted one, and are confident enough to give proper corrections.

That said, I would love to never see one in a Wal-Mart or PetCo ever again. Mostly because not only are they HUGE (and I don't feel like most dogs need a giant prong collar), but people who have no education in dog training see them and say, "oh, maybe this will work on my dog so he/she doesn't pull with the Flexi anymore". I have seen a monster prong on a Dachshund while attached to the Flexi. THAT is cruel, imo. But that's the same with any no-pull device- you need to enforce the heeling position (or at least LLW) with those, not just slap them on and go about your merry way.

Not to mention, people like that usually don't use any sort of back-up with their prong collar. Badly sized, poorly fitted prongs are more likely to fall apart than any other type of collar. If your dog is HA or DA, and you've no idea what you're doing and your dog's tags are hung on that prong collar so they have nothing else on them to keep them contained... you're gonna have a bad time.

So, if you've done your research, have a trainer supporting you (preferably, but not necessary if you know what you're doing), and picked out a properly sized prong that you have fitted correctly on your dog WITH BACK-UP, then whatever. Go about your merry way. I could not care less. Just learn how to properly time corrections, because that is very important.

2. I have used a prong with Roxie. I still do in situations where I need her within a few feet from my side, heeling perfectly and not paying attention to anyone but me. I've used a myriad of no-pull devices, but the prong is honestly the only one I continue using (although rarely nowadays) because IMO, it is way safer than headcollars or no-pull harnesses, and gives me much better results than other devices.

I spent a lot of time learning from others about the prong, and learning just exactly what worked best for Roxie when using it. She is usually a very soft dog, but pretty hard when it comes to high-stress situations.

Just a bit on chain collars- I found them very, very useful to give Roxie a cue to move back into heel position if she got too far ahead/away from me. Her neck is 14in, but I always used a 20in chain because it gave me enough room to make that clinking sound but not choke her. I never popped the leash or anything with a chain collar, and I think that honestly, choke chains would be best used the way I did- the dog learns from sound where they should stay positioned. There's really no need at all for the "choke" feature or leash corrections, as the sound is enough of a correction- at least for Roxie, it was.

It did take a lot of time for her to realize that the sound and closing of the collar meant that she needed to back up and sit. I myself couldn't make a verbal correction to mimic the chain in time to be effective, so the chain stayed a while until I could phase it out and she didn't need the sound of the chain.