Proin--Killer of Dogs!! (Incontinence Drug)

Corky/Max

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I call it that because even when people agree wtih you, you keep beating a dead horse. Posting anecdotal evidence from another site, over and over...it's tiresome. But that's all fine and dandy, enjoy spamming away in your thread, I'm done with it. :)
I hope I am done with it also---There is not much more I can say and I hope some members have learned from it--I have even learned some things here too----After all forum means: place for or occasion of public discussion. And nobody is forcing anyone to read this thread so if it is that tiresome--don't read it! You said--'even when people agree with you, you keep beating a dead horse.' But not everyone was agreeing with me and some were also being nasty--felt the need to try to be more convincing to those people! And when somebody gets 'on your case'---Do you not want to reply?
 
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GlassOnion

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Yah but the spreading of misinformation is something people are generally against.


wait 7 years, and then have him declared legally dead.
Do you really have to wait 7 years to declare someone dead?
 

eddieq

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Yah but the spreading of misinformation is something people are generally against.




Do you really have to wait 7 years to declare someone dead?
Not if you kill them right. Having them take 7 years to die would not be efficient.
 

elegy

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No I have not had this problem and just from cleaning up a few accidents now and then---It would not be any fun, right! But my dog(s) are the same to me as my children and I would not subject them to something that I consider very unsafe. I would try to find a safer method or use doggie diapers or/and put up with it. And definitely would not put them to sleep either. Would I murder my children!!!? Ironic sort of--Babies wet diapers but would you put them to sleep because you did not like putting up with pee and diapers? And then --the wedding vows--In sickness and in health (Hope I remembered that right)---Would you put your spouse to sleep if he was sick because you didn't want to deal with it?! [/COLOR][/B]
well, babies grow out of it and besides which, dogs are not people.
 

xpaeanx

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Yah but the spreading of misinformation is something people are generally against.




Do you really have to wait 7 years to declare someone dead?
unless there is some type of circumstance where they are most probably dead (like they were on a certain plane that we know crashed), you have to wait 7 years to declare someone who has gone missing dead.
 

Laurelin

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:rofl1: The end of this thread.

My 2 cents. I had a dog long term on rimadyl which is considered terrible by some. Rimadyl helped her live much longer than she would have otherwise. She had debilitating joint pain and could not even walk without it daily.

Summer had a horrible reaction this year to Propofol when they tried to put her under. She had to spend all night at the e-vet. When I was a kid I almost died because I had a SEVERE reaction to penicillin. Things happen like this even with generally safe drugs. People need to research for themselves and make the best decision they can for their animals. Nothing is ever 100% foolproof.
 

GlassOnion

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Not if you kill them right. Having them take 7 years to die would not be efficient.
I guess it depends on the method. You could 'accidentally' give them cancer, or AIDS, or dose them with radiation. Any number of ways to off them without it being sudden. What's even better is it doesn't draw the same amount of interest as if someone suddenly dies. "Oh, he'd been battling cancer for several years and lost. I'm so sorry! Here's a couple dollars and a delicious roast to help you get through this tough time." So you not only get the inheritance, the life insurance, and pity, but you also get rid of the original problem. Everyone wins!
 
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ProIn one last time

I have only been in the 'forum' world, the day I began to research ProIn-July 09. Yes, Jasmine died at my hands. I gave her the ProIn BUT I also trusted a vet to know when to prescribe and when not to prescribe. This is what the vet told me the day I took her in for the incontinence-Jasmine's murmur is a 2 out of 10 (not discovered til that day)-her urine was told to me as 'slight'. So stupid me trusted a vet who had taken care of her for about 5 years! I did what I was told to do-gave her Proin 2x's a day and on day 5 Jasmine had stopped eating and drinking. My fault-my guilt. Live with that for the rest of my life. Vet said never heard of ANY adverse reactions from ProIn! Well my discovery on PRN's website (Proin - PPA for Control of Urinary Incontinence in Dogs) list them! PRN's website also list when a dog is NOT to get it! Guess my vet didn't read material sent to them by PRN. They also list, a fictitious report-yes fictitious:
Proin contains phenylpropanolamine (PPA), ingredient available only by veterinary prescription. A study published in Dansk Veterinaertidsskriftl, a Danish journal, indicated that PPA effectively controlled urinary incontinence in all 17 of the dogs receiving oral dosage (one dog continued to have slight symptoms). The study included 13 females and four males, encompassing nine different breeds.

The Danish Journal has been researching this since I contacted them in Dec 09 and they have been unable to find any such report. I will be notifying the FDA on my findings.

IJMO but 17 dogs tested does not prove how wonderful this drug is for incontinence.

I pray that all of you never have to go thru what I went thru with Jasmine for those 57 days (or go thru what all the other owners have gone thru, seizures, death, strokes, death). I pray everyone of you are far more intellegent than I and will research any drug, make up your own mind as to whether to give or not. I did not realize I had a choice.

On 09-09-09, as we were riding to the vets for her journey to The Rainbow Bridge, I promised her that as long as I was able I would continue to spread the word of what possbily could happen from ProIn. I've helped several ppl change their minds about giving it.

I hope this never happens to any of you and I pray those on ProIn continue to thrive.

Thank you to those that read this. OBTW-some individuals here are some of the rudest ppl I've every had contact with on any forum.

Cheryl and Angel Jasmine
Jasmine was loved
Jasmine took ProIn
Jasmine is now gone
 
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I hope your and Jasmine's tragedy can help spur people on to expect and ASK for more attention and information from their vets.

We depend on our vets to advise us to the best of their ability, and that includes informing us of ANY possible side effects of any drugs and taking a look at our animals' medical charts -- which they presumably have in their possession -- to ascertain whether a drug is contraindicated with any existing conditions.

That's not too much to expect. Unfortunately, much of veterinary practice is going the same way as medical practice. :(
 
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ProIn

FACT:
I was informed of another death yesterday.


Hi Cheryl,

Just to keep you informed – my report to the FDA is in the mail today. Below is the narrative I wrote – tried to be as factual as possible, but also put in a little of the heartache.



Really having a tough time these past couple days. Still dealing with the guilt of her last couple days and that my giving her this pushed her over the edge. Having trouble seeing past how she must’ve suffered and felt alone – the last thing I wanted for my precious girl.



I’m submitting this adverse reaction (death) after losing one of our Newfoundland girls. She received just one dose of ProIn. Her symptoms were similar to others I’ve since read about, including death, and I believe it is important to get you this information to review and potentially help others not have to suffer this way.



We were getting ready to head to a dog show Friday, June 11th and I had Misty checked for a UTI as she had peed inside the house a few times at night. The test came back negative, and her vet gave me ProIn. Agitation was the only potential side effect that was mentioned. So I gave her a dose and we all headed to the show. (She was running around in the backyard, very excited to be coming along, acting completely normal.)



Within a few hours, we stopped at a rest stop and that’s when we realized she was having very acute, odd symptoms. She was shaking, stumbling as if drunk, panting excessively, arching her back, etc. We called the vet and after she said those weren’t known symptoms of ProIn, we decided to turn back. When we got home she was pacing in and out, couldn’t drink enough water, and also threw up outside. I was worried about bloat and took her to the ER vet (this was Friday PM). X-rays showed she wasn’t bloating.



Over the next 2 days she had a very high BP, high heart rate, high fever, very high sodium levels, low blood sugar, was dehydrated, etc. Her white blood count was normal. I kept hoping for a diagnosis so we could know if what she had was treatable or not, (all the vets were stumped) but shortly after one of my visits on Sunday evening, June 13th, I got the call that she was arresting. After hearing her recent blood work showed even worse numbers, I told them to stop CPR.



Since then I’ve started reviewing ProIn information online and found other stories like ours – dogs that were fine one day, crashing soon after being given this drug – and the symptoms sound very similar. I know this drug was pulled off the human market, and it doesn’t sound like the potential extreme side effects are generally shared with the owners or that this is being researched in the vet market. I understand that all medication, dog and human, carries risk, but I also believe that the owners should be informed when a drug can have a high risk associated as that could change whether that owner decides the risk is worth the benefit of the drug.



Please let me know if there is additional information you need or any questions you have. I want to help other owners and dogs not have to suffer through this same pain.
 
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I only got to page 7 then got tired of reading through all the "copy + paste" from the other forums.

You will always here more about an unhappy customer then a happy customer. Also, I've heard the "After I posted I received 20 messages from people who didn't want to post. Blah blah blah" soo many times. Seems like just an excuse so it seems like they have more support over the situation.

I don't have personal experience with incontinence but know quite a few people who have dogs that had/have it. It's more then just "Annoying because they leak everywhere." It can be painful to the dogs. I think it's crazy when people are saying they wouldn't put their dog/child/themselves on something that has a 1/1000 chance of being harmful. If I was going to be in pain for the rest of my life 24/7 I would go on medication even if I had a 1/1000 chance of getting negative side affects.

Anyways, sorry to ramble.
 
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FACT:
I was informed of another death yesterday.


Hi Cheryl,

Just to keep you informed – my report to the FDA is in the mail today. Below is the narrative I wrote – tried to be as factual as possible, but also put in a little of the heartache.



Really having a tough time these past couple days. Still dealing with the guilt of her last couple days and that my giving her this pushed her over the edge. Having trouble seeing past how she must’ve suffered and felt alone – the last thing I wanted for my precious girl.



I’m submitting this adverse reaction (death) after losing one of our Newfoundland girls. She received just one dose of ProIn. Her symptoms were similar to others I’ve since read about, including death, and I believe it is important to get you this information to review and potentially help others not have to suffer this way.



We were getting ready to head to a dog show Friday, June 11th and I had Misty checked for a UTI as she had peed inside the house a few times at night. The test came back negative, and her vet gave me ProIn. Agitation was the only potential side effect that was mentioned. So I gave her a dose and we all headed to the show. (She was running around in the backyard, very excited to be coming along, acting completely normal.)



Within a few hours, we stopped at a rest stop and that’s when we realized she was having very acute, odd symptoms. She was shaking, stumbling as if drunk, panting excessively, arching her back, etc. We called the vet and after she said those weren’t known symptoms of ProIn, we decided to turn back. When we got home she was pacing in and out, couldn’t drink enough water, and also threw up outside. I was worried about bloat and took her to the ER vet (this was Friday PM). X-rays showed she wasn’t bloating.



Over the next 2 days she had a very high BP, high heart rate, high fever, very high sodium levels, low blood sugar, was dehydrated, etc. Her white blood count was normal. I kept hoping for a diagnosis so we could know if what she had was treatable or not, (all the vets were stumped) but shortly after one of my visits on Sunday evening, June 13th, I got the call that she was arresting. After hearing her recent blood work showed even worse numbers, I told them to stop CPR.



Since then I’ve started reviewing ProIn information online and found other stories like ours – dogs that were fine one day, crashing soon after being given this drug – and the symptoms sound very similar. I know this drug was pulled off the human market, and it doesn’t sound like the potential extreme side effects are generally shared with the owners or that this is being researched in the vet market. I understand that all medication, dog and human, carries risk, but I also believe that the owners should be informed when a drug can have a high risk associated as that could change whether that owner decides the risk is worth the benefit of the drug.



Please let me know if there is additional information you need or any questions you have. I want to help other owners and dogs not have to suffer through this same pain.
Right there is the crux of the whole issue.
 
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Well I guess there are a couple of issues here.

first there does not seem to be any definitive clinical information as to the rate of adverse side effects and just what they are so that brings into question the labeling on the drug.

Secondly it would appear that veterinarians, at least the ones mentioned here, either knowingly or unknowingly did a disservice to their clients.

At the heart of it, is an ignorance of what the true risk reward ratio is for the drug and I suspect there's not enough money in it for any exhaustive study or research. That's a shame but that's a fact.

I've no personal experience with incontinence in any of my dogs but I do have some knowledge about incontinence in humans. A few years back I was writing content for a client who is the largest online incontinence product provider on the web.

In doing research for articles, I was amazed at how small the studies were for incontinence medication, often under 150 people. The FDA can approve a drug on that small a sample. With the Baby Boomers hitting their sixties, incontinence is growing into big business and you'll see a rush to put products on the shelves.

How does that relate to dogs? Well just carefully watch the TV ads and you'll notice that 20%-50% of the air time is listing the adverse side effects. Of course the advertisers want you to be focusing on the four old geezers in a convertible Mustang taking a road trip while the calming voice over is describing kidney failure, renal failure, blindness and a dry throat as potential side effects.

Medicine, any kind of medicine has risks. We make our decisions to take a medicine based in large part on the opinion of the guy whose supposed to know what's best be it an MD or a DVM. Maybe it's time to change that paradyme.
 

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