Prey drive = toy drive ??

[release the hounds]

Even if they all stem from prey drive, there seems to be a genetic component for these thresholds and preferred stimuli (though obviously there is a socialization and training component too - nature vs nurture). I think the language of drives people use (like toy vs prey drive) is an attempt to describe that specific dog's behavior in order to relate it to the "work" the dog needs to do (whether the work is sports, hunting, bitework, etc). I can see the usefulness in having a vocabulary like this, even if it's impossible to completely standardize the meanings from person to person.

All dogs have some sort of prey drive, because they are predators (or at least evolved from predators, even if they are often scavengers now). But just saying "prey drive" doesn't help someone understand what motivates their dog or how to train with it. It also doesn't help describe a dog's behavior to others.

I see what you're saying, but it still doesn't change that these behaviors stem from prey drive, or is there another drive, which was the question was it not?

and if a dog truly has a lot of prey drive, I'm betting I could find a way to access it thru toys and I wouldn't create any new drives in the dog, just access it's prey drive.

 

[Elrohwen]

I see what you're saying, but it still doesn't change that these behaviors stem from prey drive, or is there another drive, which was the question was it not?

and if a dog truly has a lot of prey drive, I'm betting I could find a way to access it thru toys and I wouldn't create any new drives in the dog, just access it's prey drive.

My original post was mostly meant to start a discussion of how everyone understands drives and utilizes them in training, not just a yes or no question of "is prey drive the same as toy drive", though that's how I started it out. It's a topic that interests me and I wanted to see how others approached it.

It seems to me that there are two standard definitions of prey drive. The general definition is prey drive as the sequence of hunt, stalk, chase, bite, kill that is required of a predator. All dogs have this to some extent, and many of their behaviors fall under this umbrella, including playing with toys, using their noses to track, herding, etc.

The other definition of prey drive is very specific, and is typically used for a dog who wants nothing more than to chase down and probably kill small furry animals. In this sense, it can be useful to say that a particular border collie has high toy drive and responds well to toys in training, but low prey drive, because he's not likely to get caught up in chasing a squirrel. Or that a particular JRT has low toy drive, but high prey drive and will kill any small furry critter it can catch.

I do think a good trainer can probably teach a number of these behaviors even if they are not instinctual in a dog who has naturally high prey drive (in the general sense). It will be difficult to teach a naturally low prey drive dog to hunt, play with toys, chase furry things, herd, etc, etc because the general drive isn't there.

 

[SpringerLover]

I think it is just thresholds and stimulus. I don't think there are toy drives and prey drive.

Something we agree on!

 

[sassafras]

Toy drive is prey drive with the added bonus of handler interaction. If a dog doesn't know how to channel their prey drive into handler interaction, it's just that, they don't know how. I can see how there is an argument for them being differently, but if I know a dog has prey drive, they have toy drive somewhere lurking. The handler just hasn't found a toy/game/activity that taps it yet.

This is well said. Squash has always been willing not only to chase, but to catch, kill, and eat little critters (mostly mice in the backyard, but he did kill a woodchuck once as well), but he was never super interested in tug/toys as a reward for training until I got a real rabbit fur tug. Then all of the sudden he wanted to play tug 'til the cows came home and that has spilled over to some other toys in general (mostly Wubbas). Which is fortunate because at some point he stripped the fur off the tug and ate it. :/

Having said that, I think there can be value to breaking it down further depending on what you want to do with a dog. For example, if you want a flyball dog that leaves your cats alone, I think there is value in specifying that you are looking for a dog with some variation in the expression of prey drive. But it's easier to abbreviate "I want a dog who expresses the sequence of prey drive up to the point where they chase and bite the ball but do not actually carry out the kill" to "I want a dog with high toy drive but low prey drive" in normal everyday conversation than say the whole thing every time. As long as both parties understand what each other mean, I don't really care what people call it to be honest.

 

[Danefied]

So do you think a dog chases and bites a tennis ball because they have tennis ball drive? or do you think the tennis ball just triggers their prey drive, for whatever reason. And why won't they hunt a rat? is it because they are incapable of chasing and biting things? Or is it more likely because they never learned they can hunt a rat, maybe the rat doesn't do anything for it, but a cat will or a raccoon or a kid on a bicycle. Maybe it's just afraid of the rat and knowing their food in his bowl at the end of the day anyway, it will avoid any interaction with a rat and sniff around like crazy, but never engage or get close enough to be in "danger"

Don't know and don't really care. As long as I can access the drive in a way that is useful to me in training, it doesn't really matter a whole hill of beans to me if it's all prey drive, if it's different drives, whatever. And to be fair, it's a hell of a lot more sanitary to carry a tennis ball in your pocket than road-kill squirrel (yes, someone did that, no it was not me, yes I totally laughed and understood )

I DO think there is an element to hunting that involves the nose that is not related to prey drive. I think I would call it a drive, but I wouldn't necessarily put it on the predatory sequence. It's the searching, scavenging, scenting drive. That's another very cool drive to access and play around with.
So yeah, I find it all fascinating to talk about and observe in the dogs, but I don't really get all up in arms about terminology.

True, not a dog I'd want to breed, but what drive are they missing? Chasing and biting is still prey drive. I think they lack nerve or something else if they will chase a ball, but not a prey item. Or they never were allowed to see certain things as prey items to begin with or it was trained out of them. So many reasons why a dog might not want to chase a live animal.Maybe those terriers who don't hunt but chase balls are lacking that seeking drive I talked about above? Maybe it's not that prey and toy drive are different but that hunting is not only prey drive but a combination of prey and seeking drive? IDK?

I don't think there is "ball drive", or toy drive, or tug drive or squirrel drive, those are just different ways to access prey drive.

Well, if you were a big enough idiot, you could make a dog afraid of a squirrel, get it to attack the squirrel - would that be prey drive or self-preservation drive?

 

[Elrohwen]

I DO think there is an element to hunting that involves the nose that is not related to prey drive. I think I would call it a drive, but I wouldn't necessarily put it on the predatory sequence. It's the searching, scavenging, scenting drive. That's another very cool drive to access and play around with.

Could you elaborate on this? I've always considered the hunt-type drive to be related to the general prey drive sequence.

Also, any details on how you play around with it? This is by far my dog's highest drive and motivation and he's had a blast with nosework training so far. I've also been using it as a premack type reward, but I'm always looking for new ideas.

 

[Danefied]

Could you elaborate on this? I've always considered the hunt-type drive to be related to the general prey drive sequence.

Also, any details on how you play around with it? This is by far my dog's highest drive and motivation and he's had a blast with nosework training so far. I've also been using it as a premack type reward, but I'm always looking for new ideas.

Well, there is a whole part of hunting that involves using the nose, picking up a scent, figuring out what the scent is, if it's fresh, where it's going, where it's coming from, following it etc. etc.
But even before all of that, the dog has to have a drive to actually get out and LOOK for that scent - the scavenging part. Some dogs have low or no drive to go out and look for things to get in to. Not that I've ever owned one, but apparently there are dogs out there who with no training whatsoever, never get in to things.
I don't know if you would call that desire to go find things to get in to a drive, but if it is a drive, the dogs described above would be one end of that spectrum, and the dogs who find the dog treats hidden in the far recesses of the cabinet, wedged between the onions and potatoes and who will determinedly tear up the kitchen to get to them would be on the other end.

I'm a total nosework newbie, but I can definitely see using things like nosework, barn hunts, laying a track, search and rescue... all of that as a way to tap in to the scavenger drive. Some dogs will do it for the reward at the end, but some dogs just LOVE the process, the figuring out the puzzle part.

 

[Elrohwen]

Well, there is a whole part of hunting that involves using the nose, picking up a scent, figuring out what the scent is, if it's fresh, where it's going, where it's coming from, following it etc. etc.
But even before all of that, the dog has to have a drive to actually get out and LOOK for that scent - the scavenging part. Some dogs have low or no drive to go out and look for things to get in to. Not that I've ever owned one, but apparently there are dogs out there who with no training whatsoever, never get in to things.
I don't know if you would call that desire to go find things to get in to a drive, but if it is a drive, the dogs described above would be one end of that spectrum, and the dogs who find the dog treats hidden in the far recesses of the cabinet, wedged between the onions and potatoes and who will determinedly tear up the kitchen to get to them would be on the other end.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Yes, there has to be some desire to start searching in the first place. I still think it's related to prey drive because generally the dog would looking for food/prey to go after (or at least his wolf relatives would be). I think some of the getting into things (in general) is just boredom in a dog who is easily bored, and some of it is actively searching. I don't know - it's something I'll have to think about. Watson can get into things around the house, but that's because he's bored and hoping he can steal a sock or swipe some food off of the counter. His drive to sniff for things outdoors seems unrelated.

I'm a total nosework newbie, but I can definitely see using things like nosework, barn hunts, laying a track, search and rescue... all of that as a way to tap in to the scavenger drive. Some dogs will do it for the reward at the end, but some dogs just LOVE the process, the figuring out the puzzle part.

We've been doing nosework for almost a year and Watson is like a different dog in that class. Normally he's spazzy and can be easily bored or frustrated, but he will search for a scent forever without any frustration. Some of the dogs had to be taught the game, but he instantly knew what to do. It's fun to watch. He alerts for the reward because that's what I've taught, but I'm pretty sure at this point he would do it all day every day with no real rewards, just because it's what he's driven to do. I wish it were easier to tap into as a reward, but I've been moderately successful with it, and it's something I can use in any environment or situation without needing food or toys, which is nice. I'd like to get involved in tracking, but we're doing enough other things right now and I don't know a place locally where we could get started or take classes.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I believe toy drive is started with prey but it seems to develop into handler interaction or self satisfying behaviors more than an active chase prey drive. That being said I have seen dogs who've been motivated to play with toys in as a task, with food as the reward.

Also, on the note of hunt drive I would venture it is not the same as prey drive, In barn hunt for example many dogs who light up at the flitter of a rodents movement stand in confusion or boredom when asked to search for a rat in a tube sight unseen, it's interesting and many of those dogs can be taught to continue the hunt but I believe their desire to jump in and start sans additional motivation (ie food reward associated with the find) says something about their drive.

 

[Danefied]

I believe toy drive is started with prey but it seems to develop into handler interaction or self satisfying behaviors more than an active chase prey drive. That being said I have seen dogs who've been motivated to play with toys in as a task, with food as the reward.

Also, on the note of hunt drive I would venture it is not the same as prey drive, In barn hunt for example many dogs who light up at the flitter of a rodents movement stand in confusion or boredom when asked to search for a rat in a tube sight unseen, it's interesting and many of those dogs can be taught to continue the hunt but I believe their desire to jump in and start sans additional motivation (ie food reward associated with the find) says something about their drive.

Yep, this... Thanks for saying it all pretty and succinct-like