Pinch/Prong Collars?

[Brandyb]

Personally, I would never use an aversive to proof anything. I've got a dog who has a dynamite recall, heel, backward heel, long down stay with me out of sight, a snappy drop when in mid chase of a running animal. He has drive and exuberance. I'd never dream of punishing him in association with doing any of those things, not so much as a harsh word other than a no reward marker.

Dogs learn by association. When you introduce aversives in association with learning and improving skills, you undermine what you're trying to achieve....momentum, drive and the desire to work IMO.

You can sharpen skills the same way you get them in the first place, by motivating and rewarding... shaping, capturing, luring. Using reward and motivation and then switching to pain and avoidance defeats the purpose of the reward. The dog's brain is switching from working for reward to working to avoid. It's so much better to have the dog's mind keeping on the same track.

In addition, associating pain with learing a skill is a sure fire way to ruin a dog's drive to work....as in using a prong collar to teach a down.

Dobverluv
I highly respect your opinion and obviously you have an extensive knowledge of training and behaviour, but I will say this, not all dogs respond the same to all training, and there are situations, as the one Doberkim has explained, that require the use of an adversive to better the life of the animal.

And I do not agree with your last statement - though I do not use adversives to teach a skill (I don't find it nessessary or fair) and although it is not the desired way to "teach", it is not a sure fire way to ruin a dogs drive to work, and I'm sure that Savethebullies has not ruined any drive or bond that she has with her dog. If there was some sort of abuse of the situation, then I would agree, however, there was not, and 2 or 3 instances of using a prong to teach a down is not going to ruin her dog. Yes, its not the ideal situation, and perhaps down the road she will think of a better way to teach a skill, but I'm sure that no harm has been done here, especially if she has a hard, and hard headed dog, which it sounds like she does. An overly senstive soft dog would most likely be affected by this type of training, but your average to hard dog will not (as long as it is not abused or done excessively).

 

[Doberluv]

Once the dog has fully grasped the concepts, you can, if you wish, add corrections (the correction phase) if you are comfortable with this type of trainning, and from there you move to the proofing phase (ie. distraction training).

You see...here is sort of the folcrum where we differ and which makes all the difference in the world why someone might think it's logical and fair to proof with an aversive, as in...."He knows it but chooses to blow me of because he's hard headed." I don't think dogs grasp a concept. Not the way we grasp a concept, as in..."Ah-ha! Now I get it." No....their brains are not convoluted enough...they're not thinking through things like we do as in analyzing and after deliberation, grasping a concept or coming to a point where the idea makes logical sense. Basically, they're simply doing what works. And when they've had a strong enough background of reinforcements for a behavior, that behavior will be repeated. Condition, response...do this and that happens. It works or it doesn't. That's as far as it goes. Thinking through things logically and understanding concepts is something that takes a larger brain with more convolutions, wired a little differently. It would also take a species which has the same value system as we do or one that could relate to and have a high degree of intelligence to be able to empathize to a complicated and high degree. While I think dogs reason and have some level of empathy, I don't think they have those qualities to a sufficient degree to analyze and grasp concepts.

I have many of Lyric's skills proofed but I didn't use a shock or prong collar to proof them. I used real life situations in some cases to proof him. If he hadn't stopped chasing the deer or the dog when I called out a command, I wouldn't think I needed an aversive. I would think..."woops, needs more practice, more motivation to comply. We'll create a new game plan for another two weeks and see how it goes."

So, if a dog appears to have "grasped a concept" because he gives the correct response time and time again, but then one time here and there, he doesn't, it does not mean that he's being "hard headed" or "stubborn," or "blowing you off." Something else is more motivating to him at that moment. He simply needs more practice. Those concepts of hard headedness etc, are human concepts. Dogs simply do what works.

No, I don't think one instance of harsh training methods will necessarily ruin a dog. And I didn't mean the one instance with the lying down thing. But if that kind of training is used with all the things a dog learns, it would. Over the Internet, it is impossible to know how sensative this dog is. I believe that making training a frightening, painful or uncomfortable experience erodes the trust that a dog has in it's owner to one degree or another depending on a lot of factors...so many variables that are not always under our control. Too many variables for me, at any rate to mess with it, especially when there are other ways!

As far as the e-collar, I understand what you're saying Kim and I think you did a great thing for Bowie over all. I don't know what I'd do if I had a dog that bit people. It would be difficult. I would have to keep him on a leash when around people and/or put a muzzle on him. The dog wouldn't be off leash unless I was on some deserted island somewhere. I'd find other ways to give him his fun...not at a public park but in a fenced yard where we're alone. I, personally just don't have the stomach for using electric shock on a dog.