When someone has a hard time getting their dog to come when it's wanting in the worst way to run off and chase prey and has such a drive that way, that the recall is hard to get reliable, there are some specific exercises that can help with that....geared for that very type of competing motivator. There's a system, step by step that works up by levels. When someone just goes and uses a shock collar, it bothers me because I don't think they're nice at all. When someone says that they gave treats and ear scratches for 20 months and the dog still didn't have a good recall, I say, "elementary" because there is lots more you can do besides praise and treats and it's not all about reward. It's about setting up situations and a whole lot more. When that someone says that she was just summarizing and she did do more, but only wrote ear scratches and treats, how is the reader suppose to know that she did more? It looks like, when you read the post that that was the only method employed. So, to me, that is very basic and not enough to train a good recall in prey distractions. It is not meant to be condenscending. It was that I was aghast that a trainer, no less would think that was the only trick in the bag. I cringe at the thought of shock collars and I can't help that.
But....never mind.
Oh geez .. "when someone" ?? Are you trying to be elusive? *LOL* So tell me .. when you talk about training you've done, do you write out every little thing you've done for a year and a half of training? No, of course not. You summarize. But when I do it, you use it just so you can throw an insult at me.
I am pretty darn sure that I have a lot more experience in training than you do. I understand dog behavior very well and have no doubt that I also understand the concepts of operant conditioning better than you do (given some of your very statements in the past). And I live in the real world, where dogs play rough games with each other and have predictable responses to certain aversives. I have ZERO doubt (in my experience based on 18 years of training seriously) that I provided my dog with the proper training and motivation throughout those 18 months before I bought an e-collar. Do I feel the need to tell you every single thing I did for 18 months of training? No, I don't. There is NOTHING that I've seen you post EVER that makes me think that you would have done more than I did with this girl. NOTHING. Not once have a read a post from you that made me go "a-HA! There's a step I missed that I could try!". There's not been one post from your buddy, either, that made me sit up and think "wow, this person really does have some better ideas!". Believe me, if either of you had offered something that I hadn't already thought of I would have gladly used it. But there has not been ONE thing in ... what, well over a year? .. of posts on this forum.
The level of severity of a correction or an aversive or a NRM depends on the DOG, not on the PERSON. A simple neutral "no" could flatten some dogs I've worked with, whereas a hugely physical correction could be completely shrugged off by others. Knowledgeable trainers understand this. It's extremely obvious that I won't get some "trainers" on here to accept this. So all I can do is continue to let people know that regardless of what some people want to say, use of an occasional aversion - based on the personality of their particular dog and balanced with a huge amount of positive reinforcement - is NOT a bad thing. They are NOT bad people for doing this and no reasonable person should make them feel so.
I've explained things over and over and over and I'm done explaining my techniques for now. I'm not done defending other people, though. Someone needs to do it, because it's obvious that the guilt trips being thrown at them are detrimental.
And by the way - whatzmatter was dead on about the PM's. I get messages from people frequently (PM's and emails) thanking me for my posts AND asking my advice on training. Some of these people are no longer comfortable asking in public because they are concerned they'll be treated badly. And it is just amazing that the "trainers" on here who profess to believe so highly in positive reinforcement are so inept at providing +R to those who ask for advice. Look at the number of public posts that have said "yes, I was made to feel bad". Imagine how many more of those responses are going privately to various people, and how many more people are sitting back thinking "yes, I feel the same". The truth is, you're NOT helping people and you're NOT helping their dogs when you make them feel like they're terrible.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
