New puppy pics...cute alert. :)

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#81
I hope you like it here... there are a handful of breeders for you to speak with and all the rest of us are "pet people" so you wont be able to talk to any of us. You are the one being condescending and rude over and over again. Wow. Hopefully you will be like all the others like you, come stir the pot for a few weeks and leave again. What I want to tell you will get me banned so I will just wait for you to leave.
 

corgipower

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#82
When you ask a longtime breed fancier if she has "worked with" her dogs that is a slap in the face...especially for someone like me who has her dogs as house dogs. I am not some dippy pet owner who lets her dogs run the house. Your question was condescending and rude and if you had any CLUE about me or my dogs (website?) or responsible breeders, behavior, or my BREED...you would have known that.
No one here knew you when all you had posted was pictures and a link to a webcam. No one knew what your experience is with the breed, no one knew whether or not you are a "dippy pet owner", no one here knew whether or not you're a responsible breeder...until AFTER the questions were asked and answered.

Even long time members who we do know well have had their breeding choices questioned. They've stood behind their decisions and explained their reasons.

It's one of the things I happen to like about this forum. We don't just blindly oooh and aaaah. We ask tough questions.

Panda does not have an aggression issue that is abnormal...she has a temperament TRAIT I choose NOT to live with.
Choosing to not live with it is fine. But how does breeding for a softer corgi improve the breed?
 

MsBehave

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#84
No one here knew you when all you had posted was pictures and a link to a webcam. No one knew what your experience is with the breed, no one knew whether or not you are a "dippy pet owner", no one here knew whether or not you're a responsible breeder...until AFTER the questions were asked and answered.

Even long time members who we do know well have had their breeding choices questioned. They've stood behind their decisions and explained their reasons.

It's one of the things I happen to like about this forum. We don't just blindly oooh and aaaah. We ask tough questions.



Choosing to not live with it is fine. But how does breeding for a softer corgi improve the breed?

Duly noted.

To answer your question, and I'm sure this is going to be a debate that you and I will likely have to agree to disagree on...I see no reason why, since most of my dogs will never herd anything, that they have to have a super drive and sharp unbiddable temperament. I prefer a softer, more biddable, more social dog. Many breeds have 'evolved' to become better pets...but still able to do their 'intended' job....or not. One of my puppies is herding titled. I'm proud of that. He also has his TD and a leg in agility and his CGC. Proud of that, too. Also have one working towards his CD. If I can make dogs that I adore living with, who do well at specialties under breeder judges, who can or will finish their championships in AKC, and who can learn and do some performance events should the owners choose to do so, but who also make wonderful, social pets...then I am proud. Very proud. My dogs live in my house, not a barn. We live in suburbia, not a farm. As do most of the Pembroke owners in the world, these days, I'm guessing...certainly that is true of my puppy buyers.

You know what dogs are in rescue much of the time? High drive dogs that are snippy and sharp and unsocial. Dogs like they "used" to be who have not "evolved" to be pets instead of farm dogs. And no, I do not need another breed. I've had this breed for over 30 years, and dealt with every temperament. Now, I know what I prefer, and that is what I will strive to produce. Sound, sane, biddable, trainable, healthy dogs who are good breed representatives.

Breeds evolve, the needs of each breed evolves. There is no reason I cannot want for a softer, more biddable temperament in a breed that, while originally bred for herding, is now mostly a pet/companion/obedience/therapy dog.

I'm thinking you and I will agree to disagree on this. And that is ok. :)

MsB
 

Fran101

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#85
First of all, PM, I wasnt referring to your post when I mentioned the "witch hunt" it was just a general thing about where this thread was headed

Second of all, being a pet owner certainly doesn't make me "dippy". I dont breed dogs because frankly, I enjoy things like vacations, free time, peace & quiet, and low dog food/vet bills among other reasons lol

and third, if you dont like the temperament that corgis are supposed to have... not trying to be rude, but why did you pick them? why would you choose a certain breed just to try to change it into something its not? there are PLENTY of totally biddable, friendly, etc.. breeds already. those looking for a dog with that temperament could go to one of those breeds.

I just dont see the sense in WANTING a corgi if you dont want to deal with the temperament they are supposed to have.

dog breeds would be very interesting at all if they were all a bunch of totally friendly aloof copies of eachother.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Crowsfeet

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#86
Ya know guys, there's an incredibly simple way to handle situations like these.

In a more asinine manner, generically people sometimes bum-rush other folks(new, unknown folks, because ya know, people are suspicious of what they don't know) to hurry up and figure out where their knowledge lies, see if their safe and on the same page.


You can just wait for someone to speak. Slowly wait for them to show their true character, without making them feel hammered down on. You don't even have to worry about misinformation being spread, because as soon the moment comes when something is communicated that is out of line, one of the many, many members of the forum will be there to question it. Questioning someone in an avalanche of subjects entirely at once is absurd, let alone no way to pass on knowledge or have conversation or accurately get to know someone. It's especially interesting to watch people do this who are known to voice complaints about human beings shutting down dogs in training, but hey, no worries about shutting down their fellow species. Who cares, they can defend themselves.


I feel like if you were sincerely concerned about spreading knowledge, you would take the time to do it, instead of spitting it out in some strange, anxious explosion in an effort to lay down the law, that only in turn works to make someone feel attacked and misunderstood, and essentially, probably doesn't help anyone.


Sadly, all this nastiness could have been avoided.
Guess we're off topic now.
 
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MsBehave

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#87
Make no mistake, I am not knocking pet owners...I love them. Bless them. I am knocking hypocritical ones who are judgmental.

Make no mistake, my dogs are all Pembrokes, all the time. They dont look the same as other dogs, and they don't act the same as other dogs. They are PWC's. But just as you don't want all "cookie cutter" dogs that are of one temperament of ALL breeds, nor do I want the same "cookie cutter" temperaments in MY breed. The standard does not call for nasty, hyper, unruly dominant barky dogs. Quite the opposite. So if my dogs "could" do their job as herding dogs...well, nuff said. Like I said, I've had temperments that run the gamut, and I know now what I prefer in my breeding program and for my pets. There isn't another breed that suits me in temperament.

I need to go back to "pet people"...love ya. Seriously. My pet owners make every heartbreak in my breed bearable. They are the reason I do what I do, the reason I don't just own altered pets. So my intention was not to insult pet owners on this forum, but pet owners that are hypocritically judging ME, making assumptions that simply are not true about me, and demanding things of me that they, themselves, didn't even demand of their own breeder.

I have read here for years and I KNOW there are a lot of wonderful pet owners on Chaz. I love that. And I wholeheartedly apologize if my post came off as "anti-pet owner" or condescending to pet owners in general. Sincerely sorry.

MsB

I expect this to be...whadda ya think...11 pages by tomorrow when I get back here? ;)
 

Crowsfeet

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#88
I'll say... thirteen.


Addendum: I should also mention in reference to my previous post, that was not to say that the OP here even requires the introduction of knowledge... 'actually seems to be fairly knowledgeable on her own(whoooa), but, these little threads come up on Chz/H every once in a bit, and sometimes I feel so inclined as to comment. Consistency and conditioning, or something :p
 

ihartgonzo

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#89
I don't see where this breeder was "put through the ringer". Maybe I missed it. I saw questions asked. Questions should be asked. If a breeder can't or won't answer questions, that's a red flag IMO. Many of us aren't the type to simply ooooh and aaaah over cute puppies without caring where they came from. I've seen many threads get really ugly. This wasn't one of them. The ugliness has been in the last couple of pages of various people referring to the thread as a "witch hunt", which it absolutely has not been.
I whole-heartedly agree with many of the questions that have been and should be asked... it's just the multiple posts about "WHYAREYOUBREEDINGAVICIOUSDOGOMG!?!" that got on my nerves. When, in her post, it clearly states that the dog just doesn't prefer to live with other dogs. I also agree with you, in that hard-headedness and attitude is not something that should be bred out of any Corgi (as long as they are also stable and non-aggressive), as it is part of what makes them invaluable working dogs. I would much rather see a Corgi with 'tude than a Corgi who is skittish and insecure.

As far as a Border Collie's temperament, I can't remember all of the places that I've read it... in books, online, in BC forums, etc. It's also based on the hundreds of Border Collies I've met, both from stellar breeders and at trials and tournaments as well as dogs from rescue. Border Collies are a breed that wants their own space and doesn't tolerate rudeness. I never see them at the dog park. There are definitely different personality types in the breed, but I have yet to meet a BC who will romp and wrestle with a bunch of hyper Labs. :p I feel that meeting the dogs in a working environment, where people are taking classes regularly and/or trialing isn't the same as real life. Where I take herding classes, all 13 of the owner's Border Collies could care less about the other dogs because they're out there working and the other dogs are doing their own thing. Out in the pen just hanging with other dogs, one of her dogs bit Gonzo on the nose pretty badly when he was trying to play with her, and that was really the only time she acknowledged him in the countless times we were there. Many of her dogs are like that, and I love them, and don't find that to be a temperament flaw at all! It's in their nature.
 

corgipower

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#90
I whole-heartedly agree with many of the questions that have been and should be asked... it's just the multiple posts about "WHYAREYOUBREEDINGAVICIOUSDOGOMG!?!" that got on my nerves. When, in her post, it clearly states that the dog just doesn't prefer to live with other dogs.
Thanks gonzo! I do see how it could be seen that way, it just didn't come across like that to me. :)
 

ihartgonzo

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#91
Yeah... I tend to only scan when a thread is 7 pages long. LOL! I just hate the initial bandwagon that forms right away and the accusational attitude of one or two people in particular (not you). I mean, it's understandable to be offended by some one whose first post is "I gots purebread Labradoodle puppies! Hyperallogenits!" or "I'm breeding my 8 month-old Lab to my 1 year-old Lab! Yayyy!" People like that deserve to be bombarded with questions/information/education.

I'm curious what you mean, MsB, about working Corgis being unbiddable. They need to be extremely biddable... to work. It isn't all about them chasing and barking at livestock willy nilly, they need to be under control and take commands in the midst of all of that excitement in order to be safe and efficient workers. When I get a Corgi (Cardigan) I will definitely be buying from a breeder who both shows and works their dogs. It's great that your dogs are shown and pointed; conformation is a huge part of what makes a Corgi a Corgi. It's also great that they are health tested... huge props for that! But part of what makes them the dogs that they are is the work that they were bred to do. What were the Corgis like that you originally fell in love with years ago? Were they strictly show dogs, with many generations of show dogs behind them, or were they the product/bred from working dogs? While I don't doubt that your dogs can herd and are passing that onto their puppies, it's hard to say that without at least a herding instinct certification (which costs like $20 and takes a couple hours) or even a PT (which is fairly simple and easy to obtain, just basic droving/heeling) to back it. It's like some one saying, "yes my dogs are beautiful... they don't need to be shown!" Which as you know isn't true and isn't preserving the breed. While your dogs may still have that Corgi personality and drive that we know and love, for how many generations will that go on? Just because the puppies that you produce aren't going to working homes doesn't mean that the work that a Corgi was bred to do isn't the core of their temperament.

I'm not calling you a bad breeder, at all. I think your dogs are beautiful and I can tell how much you love and want to preserve this breed. I just want to try to help you understand working dogs a bit more. The whole show only/no working thing is a sore spot for me, as one of my favorite breeds (Border Collies) is one with a massive split... and the show version has been widely diluted, so much that they aren't the same dogs anymore.
 

Crowsfeet

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#92
I sort of wanted to quickly comment as well(while this thread is all sorts of derailed :p), my Aussie(er, mix, always conflicted with that-) often seems to not appreciate high-energy dogs that invade his space. He doesn't like to be jumped on or pushed, and will let that be known(and I like that!) In personal experience, a few of the border collies and mixes thereof which we have encountered seem to do a sort of dance around his space bubble until more intimate play can settle in. He also acts like the strangers and acquaintances who pet him have hands made of wind on the occasion they approach him. He definitely isn't afraid or insecure of strange dogs or people, he just isn't affectionate or really interested in them until he is sure of what they are all about.

Just as well, in the times we visit the dog park and the dogs get rowdy/excited in play, he sometimes attempts to manage and micro-manage the dogs around him, and take control of the situation :rolleyes:

I feel as though there is information everywhere about herding breeds carrying the trait of "aloofness" in temperament. This is also something I feel as though Lizmo already knows, and perhaps misunderstood the comments of Gizmo and 'Corgi somewhere along the line(?). I also believe this temperament trait is something that can clearly be observed with personal experience(in which Liz' seems to have lots of). At least in mine and in several of the members participating in this thread.

However, just at the dog park the other day, we did get to meet a super charming BC that would unabashedly bring us(my two friends and I) her ball, and alternate between us three(by choosing to bring who the ball, and funny enough, in the order of the line we were standing in) who was chosen to throw the ball next :p
 
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Crowsfeet

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#93
Yeah... I tend to only scan when a thread is 7 pages long. LOL! I just hate the initial bandwagon that forms right away and the accusational attitude of one or two people in particular (not you). I mean, it's understandable to be offended by some one whose first post is "I gots purebread Labradoodle puppies! Hyperallogenits!" or "I'm breeding my 8 month-old Lab to my 1 year-old Lab! Yayyy!" People like that deserve to be bombarded with questions/information/education.
(amen, 'lady)


Also.

I'm curious what you mean, MsB, about working Corgis being unbiddable. They need to be extremely biddable... to work. It isn't all about them chasing and barking at livestock willy nilly, they need to be under control and take commands in the midst of all of that excitement in order to be safe and efficient workers. When I get a Corgi (Cardigan) I will definitely be buying from a breeder who both shows and works their dogs. It's great that your dogs are shown and pointed; conformation is a huge part of what makes a Corgi a Corgi. It's also great that they are health tested... huge props for that! But part of what makes them the dogs that they are is the work that they were bred to do. What were the Corgis like that you originally fell in love with years ago? Were they strictly show dogs, with many generations of show dogs behind them, or were they the product/bred from working dogs? While I don't doubt that your dogs can herd and are passing that onto their puppies, it's hard to say that without at least a herding instinct certification (which costs like $20 and takes a couple hours) or even a PT (which is fairly simple and easy to obtain, just basic droving/heeling) to back it. It's like some one saying, "yes my dogs are beautiful... they don't need to be shown!" Which as you know isn't true and isn't preserving the breed. While your dogs may still have that Corgi personality and drive that we know and love, for how many generations will that go on? Just because the puppies that you produce aren't going to working homes doesn't mean that the work that a Corgi was bred to do isn't the core of their temperament.

I'm not calling you a bad breeder, at all. I think your dogs are beautiful and I can tell how much you love and want to preserve this breed. I just want to try to help you understand working dogs a bit more. The whole show only/no working thing is a sore spot for me, as one of my favorite breeds (Border Collies) is one with a massive split... and the show version has been widely diluted, so much that they aren't the same dogs anymore.
I really appreciate this stance on this topic. Australian Shepherds, Border Collies, Corgis, and I'm sure all sorts of others are facing the same issues. Yes, these dogs are beautiful, but to me, more than half or all of the beauty comes from the behaviors the dog was originally composed of. I never, ever want a mass-production lab or golden retriever temperament in an Aussie. Before they are ever labeled to be companions, therapists, pets, workers, or show(wo)men, they need to be clever, humorous, aloof, driven, thoughtful dogs and all those things that classically made them what they came to be. Beauty can be thought about much later.


However, it is also to say, I much further appreciate a responsible breeder engaging a breed with enough respect to be sure her dogs are sound mentally and physically before all else. In my situation, I can't say I would be interested in an Aussie who hasn't been bred from it's classic origins, but I also can't say I necessarily disagree with maintaining the duality(less 'tame' working style vs. further domesticated pet style) within the breed.


'Guess I should say that this is also coming from a 'pet' owner who will likely never go beyond herding just for fun or just hiking/spending time with their dog. :)
 
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#94
Here are a couple of pics of my Border Collies working...I have three and all three are mostly Borderfame bloodlines with the exception of my merle that also has Sportingfield's which is also mostly Borderfame. Borderfame is a big show kennel out of Australia. All of my dog's work sheep. I haven't done their HIC's because at BC Nationals they wanted $50.00 each, I think I can do it cheaper closer to home. Anyway, my red/wht bitch was Best of Winners at the 2009 Border Collie Society of America National, it was a 5 point major to finish her Championship. Two of my dogs have some very impressive show careers and we are heading for some herding titles next. Here is my blue merle (Sportingfield's Coat of Many Colors x CH. Hot Shot at Shoreland), 8 weeks old, creeping up on my bitch.
[/IMG]
 
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#95
Here is my male....we were working these sheep and this one ewe in particular had been giving all the dogs a problem. Well, Jett took it upon himself to show her who was boss...he got right up in her face (after she had tried to head-butt every dog all dog) and moved her like this. After this, she settled down and moved for everyone....
[/IMG]
 

corgipower

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#97
I'm curious what you mean, MsB, about working Corgis being unbiddable. They need to be extremely biddable... to work.
Ares, an amazing working corgi, awesome on stock, worked a herd of cattle beautifully and that was with no training - just instinct - also excelled in the obedience ring.

Retired with a CDX, several wins, scores in the 190's, and when I finally got it together to handle him properly in the ring and became the handler he deserved, he got a perfect heeling score. He always heeled perfectly in training and it's a shame I couldn't be a better handler sooner. If it hadn't been for an injury caused by a training failure, he absolutely had the potential to be an OTCh dog.

You don't get that kind of performance from an unbiddable dog. :p

*cries a little*
 

MsBehave

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#98
I think there is a big diff between "preserving the breed" (aka, thinking it should still look like it did as it began to develop, never progressing toward the standard) and "preserving instinct" and "improving the breed".

I have done herding with my dogs in the past (just instinct stuff) and wouldnt mind doing it in the future, but if one of my dogs didnt have instinct would I pet it out if it was otherwise awesome? NOOOOOO. Because, like I said, most Corgis have "other" jobs to do these days...MOST will never see cattle. MINE will NEVER see cattle...that scares me. Not worth my dogs dying to see if they can chase a cow. (I say that as if thats all they do, don't take it as thats what I seriously think herding is...)

Our breed has a DC (dual Champion in AKC and Herding)...wait, maybe two or three now...one, for sure has a nearly 100% "show" background from specialty winning dogs and I am not sure, but I don't think they are titled. Didnt hurt his ability any, surely.

I will not breed dogs with "working" harsh temperaments that are not good pets as well. If that is what you think the breed is, show me where it says that they should be barky, hyper and snippy. It doesnt. I believe if you "preserve" that hard temperament of "yore" (lol, reminds me of that episode of friends..."its from yore...") you are making dogs that are not suitable to live in todays world. Yes, they were great then, but even back then, they were all purpose dogs and not solely used for cattle work. So to use "working temperament" as an excuse to have dogs with bad temperaments, well, that is as offensive as if I was breeding for cocker spaniel temperaments..which I am not. I am breeding for the elusive "middle ground" that "black and white" people miss so completely.

MsB
 

Dekka

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#99
See I would rather a dog look a little less like its breed but still act like it.

But to me its the personality that makes the breed.. not the pretty package. I will love a dog if it fits my house even if its a strange colour, has a nose longer than it should etc.

AND its breeding for the job that gave it those looks in the first place. :) IMO dogs who still kinda work or are tested will keep breeds from going to the extreems (or fads) in the show world. I mean if you look at most breeds now, vs when they were working breeds they are overdone. And its the nature of breeding for show.. you need to be 'showy'.

Have you tried breeding for both work and temp? I ask this as a breeder of JRTs. First off I don't think JRTs should be dumbed down till they can be an ok pet for most people. That would ruin the breed for those of us who love the breed as it was mean to be. BUT that doesn't mean I dont' breed for great off switches and lack of dog aggression. (the off switch is going great.. still working on the DR) IME rescue dogs have inappropriate drive, not excess drive. (or in some cases like the foster I have now.. almost no drive. He would make an awesome pet but he's not very JRT like)

I mean why not breed a corgi that can herd with excellence, get its ch, win in agility, obedience, and live in a multi dog house hold?

My JRTs won't get bred if they wont' work (and I am not talking earth dog.. I REALLy wouldn't breed a JRT who couldn't do that) and they must have great off switches, great with people, win in agility, obed or rally etc etc.

I am only on gen 2 of my breeding program (it takes a long time to see if a bitch is good enough lol) of 6 years. BUT I am getting close to that goal. Why through the good away with the bad. I mean why throw away a lot of the genetics that make a corgi what it is to dumb it down so Joe Average can have one? Who says Joe average should be able to own one of every breed?

(FWIW have have no probs with people rehoming dogs who don't fit. Its often better for everyone, esp the dog)
 

MsBehave

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Well, most dogs should be able to get obedience titles...that really has nothing to do with what they were "bred for" originally.

Do I want my breed to go the way of the GSD with the American GSD looking like a slab sided, banana nosed lawndart scared out of its mind (sorry, but thats all I've seen in the rings at the shows I've been at lately...) NO, I do not. But I have to say, GSD's are one of my favorite breeds...and when I was looking for one many years ago, I couldnt find one I'd buy...seriously...that didnt cost $3k. So I bought a Rottweiler. :) Much easier to find one of those that is health tested, typey and with good temperaments. Cringe if you will...but I am drawn to, and would buy the "show line" German GSD's. NEVER would I own the working line only wound like eight day clock "machines" they breed for in some lines. Again, middle ground. The dog wasnt created to be a 'fraidy cat, the dog wasnt bred to be a dog that was incapable of having an off switch. Middle ground. Not many people breed for it...trust me, I still look for them!


MsB
 

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