New puppy pics...cute alert. :)

Dekka

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#41
They are bred to herd cattle... nuff said.

No, but in all seriousness, the herding breeds that are meant to herd cattle have a much harder temperament and the stubborness that is required often leads to issues w/ dog aggression. I don't think its so much that they hate other dogs as that these breeds do not put up with shenanigans. From anything. Cow, dog, etc.
This is a certain 'toughness' needed then to work cows? If so then it shouldn't really be bred out, right? (like the ppl breeding JRTs with low drive, might make better pets.. but make worse JRTs) Only herding breed I have much experience with are BCs.
 

Zoom

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#42
Yes, cattle dogs are meant to have an edge to them that most people aren't used to and isn't always the easiest to live with. These dogs typically aren't shy about letting it be known that they don't approve of something or will come back harder if they're in a confrontation. You should see what some Aussies will do on a stubborn cow! There's a story about a particular dog, the name is escaping me at the moment, who went head to head with a cow, was butted back a good 10 feet and that dog picked itself up and let that cow know exactly what he thought of that! That cow moved but quick back to where she should have been going.

Sharpness in Pemmies isn't uncommon but it can be trying to live with.
 

Dekka

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#43
But is it NEEDED... Like can you get good herding dogs who aren't sharp? It seems there is an edge NEEDED in JRTs (not as much as in some of my lines...). Like all the breeders who breed for ease for pet people don't produce dogs who could work.
 
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#44
This is a certain 'toughness' needed then to work cows? If so then it shouldn't really be bred out, right? (like the ppl breeding JRTs with low drive, might make better pets.. but make worse JRTs) Only herding breed I have much experience with are BCs.
That's up to the individual I suppose. Who am I to say what one person can live w/ versus another.

I personally own 3 purebred ACD's and one ACD mix. I do have to keep my two oldest bitches seperate. The option to rehome is not something I'm willing to do with either of them. They can be walked on lead together, but cannot be loose together. It's kind of a long story on why I think they don't get along, I think it probably could have been prevented. Once they truly got into a fight and hurt each other though, all bets were off and they couldn't be put together any more.

I think that temperment-wise, being a hard dog and having outright DA are different. I think hard breeds have a tendency towards DA, but they don't always go hand in hand.

I also know that ACD's were used to move thousdands of head of cattle, with cowboys who had other dogs. A DA cattle dog is of no use to a cowboy. If the dog is so fixated on getting at the other dogs he can't herd.

I have turned these thought about temperament over and over in my mind, and I think there is no perfect answer. I don't think you are doing your breed justice if your dog won't herd the animals it was originally bred to herd. I don't think people should soften the breeds for the public, and that won't happen if they keep working the dogs.
 
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#45
But is it NEEDED... Like can you get good herding dogs who aren't sharp? It seems there is an edge NEEDED in JRTs (not as much as in some of my lines...). Like all the breeders who breed for ease for pet people don't produce dogs who could work.
I will let you know when I find out. I'm still very much learning. My sharpest dog doesn't do herding. By the time I found an instructor she was over 5 yrs old and she was WAY too much to handle on sheep. I have very very little access to cattle. My dogs have seen them, but the only herding instructors I have found train on sheep only.

My soft dog is very beginner, but is doing well on sheep. I think she might make a good herding dog. Then again, this is on sheep, and no, she doesn't always have the confidence she needs. My puppy is going to be more like Carrie. Very gung-ho about herding. Since I am starting him young I can get some control on him while he is still little. If I waited until he was 55lbs he might be too much.

I really wish I had more access to people who train with ACD's. They are much different than BC's and so while I am learning info by the truck-load, I feel it is less specific to my breed.
 

corgipower

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#46
But is it NEEDED... Like can you get good herding dogs who aren't sharp? It seems there is an edge NEEDED in JRTs (not as much as in some of my lines...). Like all the breeders who breed for ease for pet people don't produce dogs who could work.
I don't know. But I also think my definition of "sharp" isn't quite the same as yours. ;) I wouldn't at all call Ares "sharp", but maybe he is?

I do know that when the cow tried to head butt him, he did NEED that edge to come back at her and make her move.

I think that temperment-wise, being a hard dog and having outright DA are different. I think hard breeds have a tendency towards DA, but they don't always go hand in hand.

I also know that ACD's were used to move thousdands of head of cattle, with cowboys who had other dogs. A DA cattle dog is of no use to a cowboy. If the dog is so fixated on getting at the other dogs he can't herd.
I agree.
But I also think that degrees of DA are different. Ares is DA. He's had some down and out fights. But he doesn't go looking for a fight, he can trial without any problems and walk through a crowded show site and do sit and down stays in the middle of a line of other dogs. But if another dog gets in his face, he has no problem telling that dog where to go...and he'll warn first. He does a lot of lip curling, posturing, growling before biting. He can live with other dogs (I did have trouble between him and Nyx, because Nyx wouldn't heed the warnings - now that she's better at leaving him alone, he's fine with her). I think that kind of DA is not at all uncommon in cattle dogs, and I don't find it undesirable.

I really wish I had more access to people who train with ACD's. They are much different than BC's and so while I am learning info by the truck-load, I feel it is less specific to my breed.
I hear ya. I've never gone to a BC trainer. I've actually been cautioned against taking corgis to BC trainers and tend to prefer to not work stock than to have them go to someone who doesn't understand how they work. I was very lucky for a while to be able to train them with a woman who has corgis.
 

sammgirl

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#47
Thank you.

Well....its every breeders horror story, though not so much "back in the day"...I got my first Pembroke as a Christmas present, believe it or not.

For some strange reason, my parents narrowed the dog choices down to two: a Corgi or a Samoyed (wth? I know...just...wth?)
A friend of the family's daughter showed Keeshond and Am Foxhounds (and later, Poms) and found a reputable breeder of Pembrokes for my parents. I grew up training her (the friend of the family's daughters) puppies, helping her stack and show dogs, etc. Did lots of obedience classes with my dog, and others dogs as a kid, as well.



MsB
Funny...I'm really hoping to get into samoyeds one day, and for me it was between the cardigan welsh corgi and a samoyed.

My mom used to show keeshonden, but she's been out of that for years and years. She's got one girl left. The rest she *gasp* rehomed.

I just got my cardi puppy a week ago, and I'm in love with her. Well, the BF and I both are. She came from a really really good breeder that I met by accident. We're crossing our fingers that her DM test comes back clear.

Her first puppy match is coming up this spring. I think we're going to the national in Gettysburg.

Anyway, welcome to the board. :)

My suggestion is to take what people say here with a grain of salt. Alot of people on the board are pet or rescue people (we have a rescue too, but she's more the BF's doggie) and I think sometimes breeders don't always get a fair shake here.

As for herding instinct and being sharp, I think maybe the dog has to have an edge to be a good herder. I don't think that Miz Harper would be a good fit in the average home. She's going to be an amazing girl, but she's also alot of work too.

But, her litter sister is sweet and sleepy little puppy so you can have both come out in the same litter. I don't think you have to breed out herding instinct just to breed good temperament.
 

Amberleigh

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#48
Hello all....I don't post much as I am a full time groomer and mom...and the slave of several Border Collies and Chihuahuas. I have posted a couple times but not enough to make anyone remember me. Anyway, I have been involved in the sport of pure-bred dogs for 18 years now....I have had Border Collies personally for 4 years now, been researching and getting hands on experience in Borders for well over 6 years now. I have three Borders that come from a well establised breeder that does everything with her Borders, you name it, she does it. Beauty and brains.....and instinct. With herding breeds comes a drive and instinct unlike any other breeds of dogs. With that drive/instinct comes a certain temperament. A temperament unlike any other breeds of dogs. With being a groomer I had handled MANY breeds of dogs with all kinds of temperaments...they all vary. Herding breeds are different. My bitch has a wonderful temperament. She is very loving. She is also very demanding of attention. She also likes order in her home. She is not a fan of other dogs. She will not attack another dog unless that dog enters her space and does not head her warnings (and to this day she has NEVER attacked another dog). Do I think that is bad temperament...hell no. That is a dominant attitude that has tons of control, and I find that it is typical of herding breeds. I cannot think of one herding breed bitch that I know of personally that isn't like this. And I know ALOT of them. I would never call a bitch of a herding breed that does not like other dogs in their space or even in their home as having bad temperament...as long as the dislike is not attacking another dog. Attacking another dog without just cause is what I would consider bad temperament. A dog that goes off without "thinking" about the situation and experiencing the situation to feel it out first has a bad temperament IMO. If a bitch (or dog for that matter) is growly, posturing, and even hackles up but it doesn't go any further is just "feeling out" the situation, normal for some dogs that are in a dominant position. If there is an attack without a "feeling out" period then I would question temperament. I don't think that MsB has a dog with a bad temperament, I think she has a dominant bitch that likes to flex her muscles with other dogs. Now it is a temperament that MsB does not feel comfortable with and she has decided to breed away from it. That is fine as she is the one who has to live with the dog. She has young children to consider. Should the bitch be thrown out because of her attitude? I don't think so, as long as the bitch has something to offer. I doubt that MsB would breed a bitch with an incorrect temperament (bad temperament), as that would go against what she is trying to accomplish. It seems that the stud owner felt the bitch was nice enough too as they let MsB use their Champion stud dog, a bad temperament would reflect on them too. I understand that this forum likes to question those who come to it to see what their true breeding practices are, completely understandable. But look at it from MsB's point of view also....maybe questions could be presented without being so harsh and judgemental......
 

Lizmo

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#50
I cannot think of one herding breed bitch that I know of personally that isn't like this.
This should not be an example of the Border Collie temperment. I don't know many like this. And I know plenty of well bred Border Collies. Quite honestly, a temperment like that, in a border collie, would be somewhat of a turn off for me. They were not meant to be an unsocial dog.

Corgi temperments are probably different because they are a different breed. We can't lump all herding breeds into one category. They are different. The temperment of a Border Collie is not the same as a GSD. They're herding styles are totally different, too. Just the same, a Terv or Mal isn't the same type of dog as a Border Collie. I've seen a Terv work stock, and it is different.
 
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Amberleigh

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#51
I never said unsocial...please don't put words in my mouth. My bitch has her CGC and does alot of therapy work. She also can be taken anywhere and socialize with any dog. When it comes to her personnal space though, she can be a little stingy with it, but not destructive. And of course there are varying degrees of temperament, I never said they were all EXACTLY alike....and for you information, most of the Border Collies I know are extremely well bred...
 

Lizmo

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#52
First, I never said the dogs you knew were not well bred. Second, I just went by what you said in your post "She is not a fan of other dogs."

Third, you did say all the Border Collie bitches that you knew were like that. "I cannot think of one herding breed bitch that I know of personally that isn't like this."
 

sammgirl

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#53
Sorry to jump in LOL

Corgis have a much harder temperament then border collies, so to speak... at least the cardis. I can't really speak for pembrokes b/c I don't really know any that well.

A hard temperment is just that the dog won't please just to please. A border collie is much more prone to absorb a command then a cardi from the borders I've met, which honestly haven't been that many.

Also as for herding, BCs have what is called a "hard eye." I love the famous border collie stare. :)

Corgis don't herd that way. They are "loose eyed" herders. Corgis are cattle dogs, and so you'll find that they are more like an ACD then a border collie (at least the cardis, I don't know much about pems) then they would be like a border.

Some of this may be redundant, and Im' not saying it is gospel or anything. Just what I've sort of absorbed along the way, so feel free to add in or correct or whatever. :)
 

Amberleigh

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#54
OK....I'm not going to get into a third grade fight here but I never claimed that you said my dogs weren't well bred. You said you know some well-bred BC as do I. The ones with this common temperament seem to be all the ones I know from varying breeders those of which are well known. I'm not saying the herding breeds all have the SAME EXACT temperament, they have different temperament from other breeds in other groups. I have Chihuahuas also and they are completely different then the Borders. What I am saying is not gospel, it is just an observation. I have seen breeders (some very well respected) breed dogs that I would pet out immediately. Dogs that have hip problems and temperament problems (aggressive towards people) and other problems that I would never touch. I won't name names but it happens everyday. I don't think that the temperament that MsB is describing is a reason to spay a bitch and omit her from a responsible breeding program when she has alot to offer. I guess we will have to agree to disagree and that's OK. No hard feelings as I respect your opinion... ;)
 

ihartgonzo

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#55
Wow... talk about a witch hunt! :eek:

It's a pretty big, HUGE jump between a dog who would prefer to be an only dog and a dog who is vicious and a terrible representation of her breed. I have met many Corgis, many! These dogs are notoriously sassy. If Panda was attacking other dogs in her home at random, I would agree that she should not be bred. But clearly, she isn't. And clearly, MsB wants what is best for Panda and for the rest of her dogs. Whoa - a breeder retiring an adult dog into a pet home? - THAT NEVER HAPPENS! *le sigh*

Border Collies are actually supposed to be wary of strangers, and strange dogs. A Border Collie should not warmly greet a dog imposing on their property, and should double as a guardian of their livestock. I work with tons of Border Collies, and have yet to meet one who does tolerate rudeness or lots of excitement... it's in their nature to control situations. We always keep an eye on the BCs because they always have an issue with some other dog (particularly Danes), unless they're a puppy or so fearful that they don't really do anything.
 

JennSLK

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#57
I do see your point. I rehomed Jazz because of personal reasons as well as the fact she was NASTILY dog agressive and I have a 11 months old. I just couldnt do it at them time.
 

Lizmo

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#58
Border Collies are actually supposed to be wary of strangers, and strange dogs.
Then, why are 98% of the Border Collies I meet fine with strangers and strange dogs? This is including meeting a breeder's dogs that have ranked top in the nation.

I'm not saying they are like Goldens who melt into puddle at the sight of a person, but they shouldn't be scared of a new person.
 
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Fran101

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#59
Wow... talk about a witch hunt! :eek:

It's a pretty big, HUGE jump between a dog who would prefer to be an only dog and a dog who is vicious and a terrible representation of her breed. I have met many Corgis, many! These dogs are notoriously sassy. If Panda was attacking other dogs in her home at random, I would agree that she should not be bred. But clearly, she isn't. And clearly, MsB wants what is best for Panda and for the rest of her dogs. Whoa - a breeder retiring an adult dog into a pet home? - THAT NEVER HAPPENS! *le sigh* .
agreed, especially about the part in bold!

If the dog would be happier living as a pet, then so be it! Lots of dogs, although they have a good temperaments would not be happiest living in a breeder setting (with other dogs, puppies, etc..). that doesnt mean they are horrible, vicious, or w/e else

welcome to the forum, and please do stick around.

Sorry about the witch hunt..
I think if somebody disagrees with something then there are POLITE ways to ask.

Oh and CUTE PUPPEHS!!

Ive got a chihuahua too lol *points at siggie*
 

PoodleMommy

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#60
I think if somebody disagrees with something then there are POLITE ways to ask.
I dont think anyone here started off being impolite but the OP.

Example: My question (the entire post, not a piece of it...)

Did you try working with her at all?
]

The OP's response:

I was asked if I have "worked with" this bitch....which is ridiculous.

These were not questions, they were judgments and accusations.
Hmmm... I guess I am missing the judgment or accusation in my post, it was a simple question... she could have easily said she didnt want to and I would have left it at that.

The OP doesnt want to answer any questions or engage in conversation with anyone... she wants to stop by plug her site and leave and yeah that's gonna make people mad.
 

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