New puppy pics...cute alert. :)

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#21
First off, if you LOOK at the link the cam islabeled with dogs names and her website lists everything that was rudely "asked". How is it when we are provided with the information right off the bat we don't take the time to read it?

Second, I myself have been to visit MsBehave (Marpran corgis) with my own bitch. There were NO fights, but panda was not exactly enthused to share her space. She was not aggressive or nasty, but wouldnt have minded if halo disappeared into the great unknown. I was able to groom and play and even cuddle with panda AND her mother tricksie, so no, no aggression. With that being said, you dont "work through" the issue of a dog preferring to be a single pet. If they are not happy and content then AS A RESPONSIBLE OWNER/BREEDER you look for the best home situation, suck up your pride and sadness and do what is right FOR THE DOG.

SO, when shady breeders show up provide links, and we can comb the link for any inconsistency, lets do the same for everyone. Look at the link, and the site!

I personally know that we are all trying to get a handle on byb's but if we dont take the time to look at links...even the NAME of the link, then dont be surprised when good breeders are offended.
 

Lizmo

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#22
I should have clarified that I can and am dealing with Panda not getting along with her half sister and she usually gets along fine with her mother, mostly because her mother lets her be the boss. I can deal with Panda just fine. She does not attack other dogs or anything insane like that. I choose not to keep this temperament, I think I can improve it.

Maybe if you explained to us why it's normal for this breed to have aggression...

I don't really know how to answer that, I didnt say it was normal for the breed to have aggression. ANd what aggression are you referring to? Dog or People? Is it normal for Pems to have people aggression? NO. Is it rare? NO, unfortunately it is not, a combo of bad genetics and/or poor pack leadership.

Is it normal for MANY breeds bitches to have bitch on bitch aggression? I'd say YES. Is it acceptable? I guess it is in some breeds. Sometimes in my breed as well. But it is NOT acceptable for ME personally. I'm simply setting the bar HIGHER than most do.

BYB pems, and some well bred Pems can be NASTY. When I worked for my vet, I was the FIRST to muzzle Pems comign in for nails. They can be horrid. THAT is what I WILL NOT breed for. Panda, however, you could do anything with her and she would not bite. She does not attack other bitches, just doesnt like them in her face and HAS to be the boss..and is unfair about it (don't drink MY water...don't go down MY STAIRS...etc). She would get in a fight, no doubt, if I let her, as my other bitches will only tolerate so much of a dog being unfair to them.

I like the softer, less driven Pems. I like them to be more affectionate and willing to please than always busy and nervous. They are just not wound like 8 day clocks and do not have sharp temperaments. I like that. Some would say Im breeding away from herding instinct, and maybe I am( I do not do herding with mine)...but one of Tricksies sons is herding titled...so guess Im not making them too stupid. :)

MsB
Yes, this is what I meant. Just further explanation so people -myself included- will have a better understand. :)
 

corgipower

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#23
I like the softer, less driven Pems. I like them to be more affectionate and willing to please than always busy and nervous. They are just not wound like 8 day clocks and do not have sharp temperaments. I like that. Some would say Im breeding away from herding instinct, and maybe I am( I do not do herding with mine)...but one of Tricksies sons is herding titled...so guess Im not making them too stupid. :)
The pemmies I've known that do a lot of herding are harder and more driven, but are not at all busy and nervous. Busy and nervous is completely incorrect temperament for a corgi. Sharpness isn't something I've seen in any well bred corgis. Breeding away from herding instinct is something I very much consider does the breed a huge disservice.

As for breeding a bitch with aggression issues towards other bitches - and it sounds like it's quite mild aggression - I see no reason at all to not breed her. Everything that makes them good stock dogs also makes them more predisposed to developing aggression. They aren't your typical biddable, aim-to-please herding breed. They have spitz ancestry with spitz snarkiness. I (and a handful of other people I've talked to) believe there may be some common ancestry with terriers as well.

Ares was an amazing herder. He didn't at all bat an eye when a cow tried to head butt him into a tree. He ducked out of the way and came right back and MADE her move. That same attitude however tends to make him stand his ground if another dog gets rank with him.

And for the OP, we don't know you. We don't know your dogs. And we do question breeders when they post here because we want to ensure that they are responsible. It's not something we take lightly. You came here and posted links to a webcam and nothing more than that, which I think looks a bit spammy.
 

PoodleMommy

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#24
With that being said, you dont "work through" the issue of a dog preferring to be a single pet. If they are not happy and content then AS A RESPONSIBLE OWNER/BREEDER you look for the best home situation, suck up your pride and sadness and do what is right FOR THE DOG.
sadness... was not conveyed in this post at all.... not one bit...

Dogs who do not get along do not stay here, period. That is a temperament issue I cannot and will not deal with, especially with small children.

MsB
it sounds more like I got what I wanted out of her and shes gone... if the dog couldnt live in her home at all, why wasnt she sent to a new home long ago? why didnt she suck up her pride BEFORE she got money out of her?

If a simple question such as:

"have you tried working with her"

is going to send you into such a rant maybe this place isnt right for you.
 
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#25
sadness... was not conveyed in this post at all.... not one bit...



it sounds more like I got what I wanted out of her and shes gone... if the dog couldnt live in her home at all, why wasnt she sent to a new home long ago? why didnt she suck up her pride BEFORE she got money out of her?

If a simple question such as:

"have you tried working with her"

is going to send you into such a rant maybe this place isnt right for you.
No offense, everyone has their own opinion, and I do not know anything about Corgi's or their temperaments..... but how how exactly did she get her money out of this dog?? She only had 2 puppies, which were born via emergency c-section, and she is keeping one and placing the other in a pet home. The pet sale on that one puppy probably didn't even cover the expense of the c-section, not to mention all the health tests that were done on the bitch (listed on the OFA website).

If she was in it for the money, my guess is she would have kept the dog and bred her again.

No dog is perfect, every dog has a flaw, and different people will see different faults in the same dog. Just because that dog has a fault, doesn't mean the whole dog should be lost from a breeding program. A responsible breeder is able to work with that issue, and breed to improve it, without losing the other good qualities that dog may carry.

Of course this is just my opinion.. I do not know the OP or her dogs, and do not know much of anything about Corgis. Not trying to start any arguments, just posting my opinion based on all the other posts that I have read...
 

MsBehave

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#26
it sounds more like I got what I wanted out of her and shes gone... if the dog couldnt live in her home at all, why wasnt she sent to a new home long ago? why didnt she suck up her pride BEFORE she got money out of her?

If a simple question such as:

"have you tried working with her"

is going to send you into such a rant maybe this place isnt right for you.
WHAT MONEY??? I have a vet bill and a stud fee and two puppies, one of which I hope to keep. The sale of the other does not cover both of those expenses, not even close. So I actually have LESS money than before I bred her. And, again, I will try to clarify that the dog DOES LIVE IN MY HOME AND HAS FOR 2.5 YEARS,she was born here, raised here and is loved here. She adores my kids, gets along with her 9 year old dam,for the most part, and likes my birds as well. She hasn't met a person she didn't like.

I do have to confess, she does hate squirrels, she learned this from her mother. Its a flaw I can tolerate and do not need to try to "fix". ;) After all, those dang squirrels are annoying, they tease the dogs and generally drive them nuts. Pun intended.

Why didn't I place her before I bred her? Because I think she has something to contribute. THAT'S WHY I BREED DOGS. I breed to have something to show and hopefully breed down the line. So, I bred her FOR ME. For me to have something to show and continue with, in my sad, tiny little "breeding program". If that is offensive to you, then you don't understand the hobby of responsible dog breeding. It certainly isn't for money, I can assure you that! If I kept everything here, I could no longer breed, or try to have a breeding program. Even with perfect temperaments, I can not keep every dog I show/finish and breed, until they die....its impossible. When they can go to an amazing home and be one of one or two instead of one of two or three or four here, and go be the light of a great persons life, why should I be selfish enough to make them stay here? If you call that "using them" then so be it. I call it doing the right thing for the dog and for the breed.


MsB
 

MsBehave

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#27
No offense, everyone has their own opinion, and I do not know anything about Corgi's or their temperaments..... but how how exactly did she get her money out of this dog?? She only had 2 puppies, which were born via emergency c-section, and she is keeping one and placing the other in a pet home. The pet sale on that one puppy probably didn't even cover the expense of the c-section, not to mention all the health tests that were done on the bitch (listed on the OFA website).

If she was in it for the money, my guess is she would have kept the dog and bred her again.

No dog is perfect, every dog has a flaw, and different people will see different faults in the same dog. Just because that dog has a fault, doesn't mean the whole dog should be lost from a breeding program. A responsible breeder is able to work with that issue, and breed to improve it, without losing the other good qualities that dog may carry.

Of course this is just my opinion.. I do not know the OP or her dogs, and do not know much of anything about Corgis. Not trying to start any arguments, just posting my opinion based on all the other posts that I have read...
THANK YOU. You don't know me but obviously you understand responsible breeding and the dog "hobby". People like you, I look forward to getting to know better on this board!

MsB
 

PoodleMommy

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#28
THANK YOU. You don't know me but obviously you understand responsible breeding and the dog "hobby". People like you, I look forward to getting to know better on this board!

MsB
you mean you look forward to getting to know people who bow down to you and ask you no questions... good luck with that.

I asked a simple question and you FREAKED out.

there was NO judgment, NO assumption in my first post.

You said you were getting rid of her because you cant handle her temperament, you did not say you were retiring her and had no space for her until now... you simply said you wont tolerate her behavior... it is normal for someone to ask what you had done to try and work with her before getting rid of her for this reason... if the real reason your getting rid of her is because you dont have space for her, say that... you wanted us to all just somehow KNOW that?:confused:
 
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#29
sadness... was not conveyed in this post at all.... not one bit...


Why does a breeder have to tell you of their sadness? When dogs leave "our" houses we are just as sad as the next person that has to let dogs leave their home. But because she didn't put weepy faces, knowing she is doing what is best for HER home, and THIS dog, she has no sadness?



it sounds more like I got what I wanted out of her and shes gone... if the dog couldnt live in her home at all, why wasnt she sent to a new home long ago? why didnt she suck up her pride BEFORE she got money out of her?

If a simple question such as:

"have you tried working with her"

is going to send you into such a rant maybe this place isnt right for you.

Are you freakin serious! OMG...this is going to sound mean, and it isn't meant to, but it is a fact that gets drilled into breeders from the get go...There are pet owners that should ONLY be pet owners.

Getting what she wanted out of her...actually no, i don't think she really did except for the fact the female is a SUPER mother and produced beautiful babies. Of course only TWO..so that limits her choice on who to keep since the girl is the one she is watching. So if she doesn't turn out, what does that leave her with?? Um...bills, and no show puppy, but two wonderful puppies is WONDERFUL PET HOMES! Never to be bred....wow she would certainly come out on top wouldn't she...NOT.

As for why didn't she go long ago...She was being SHOWN, she is a beautiful girl, that has good things to offer the breed. wow, that really doesn't seem so hard to understand. A nice girl, health tested, and bred to a nice male, health tested. Produced TWO puppies, nice babies. She has a new and fabulous home for mom, where she will be spayed and live out her life with a family as the only dog....where is the wrong in this?

As for "have you worked with her"
As she has said, technically isn't anything WRONG with her, just not the personality that works in HER HOUSE! wow, didn't see that hard to understand either!

If a GOOD BREEDER kept everything they produced, you would then label them a puppymill or hoarder. We can't keep every dog we produce, and if there is a better option FOR THE DOG, we make a responsible decision and let them HAVE THAT.


The pemmies I've known that do a lot of herding are harder and more driven, but are not at all busy and nervous. Busy and nervous is completely incorrect temperament for a corgi. Sharpness isn't something I've seen in any well bred corgis. Breeding away from herding instinct is something I very much consider does the breed a huge disservice.

As for breeding a bitch with aggression issues towards other bitches - and it sounds like it's quite mild aggression - I see no reason at all to not breed her. Everything that makes them good stock dogs also makes them more predisposed to developing aggression. They aren't your typical biddable, aim-to-please herding breed. They have spitz ancestry with spitz snarkiness. I (and a handful of other people I've talked to) believe there may be some common ancestry with terriers as well.

Ares was an amazing herder. He didn't at all bat an eye when a cow tried to head butt him into a tree. He ducked out of the way and came right back and MADE her move. That same attitude however tends to make him stand his ground if another dog gets rank with him.

And for the OP, we don't know you. We don't know your dogs. And we do question breeders when they post here because we want to ensure that they are responsible. It's not something we take lightly. You came here and posted links to a webcam and nothing more than that, which I think looks a bit spammy.

Well she has posted before, with a small intro, but not alot of people read that.

But also, we see people come and post links to their breeding or what have you and everyone flocks to look and judge from that...why did we break pattern....though the word spammy is fun...lmao

Oh well...i guess what i really have to say is...

Small "hobby" breeders can't keep everything in their homes. If we did there would be no room and we would never move forward. I have three boxers in my house...if/when i breed my girl, i will have a keeper, if it doesn't turn out i will place it...so is that also a shame on me? And if i keep a girl that doesn't like showing, Much like her mother, but place it in a pet home intact, and test her then breed her, is that also a shame on me....I guess when you are breeding you have to see things differently or else you would run out of room and sanity!

ah well

I forsee this getting ridiculous fast....have fun!
 

Dekka

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#30
Hi and welcome to chaz, your puppies are adorable.

I breed too.. and yes I was put through the wringer too when I mentioned I bred :D Its nothing personal trust me! Its just that this site gets A LOT of byb types who show up to get 'free' advertising on one of the most popular dog forums on the tubes. Tips, just stay polite and answer what questions you can. Most of this is genuine interest in the welfare of dogs. Even if someone doesn't like your answer, as long as you have a decent answer (not a 'cause i felt like it') people here will respect you.

And yes.. breeding well is a money suck. Don't ask me how far in the 'hole' we were for the dekklet litter.

ETA: and some people don't think you should ever rehome a dog. I was grilled in chat one night for letting one of my closest friends take Snip. Even though he is much happier in his new life than he was here.. it was still 'wrong' of me to give him up. I answered all the questions and it was fine. We aren't going to agree, but I was willing to show why he was happier there. AND my friend got a completely trained and socialized dog, and she couldnt' have gotten a dog unless it CAME pretty much trained.
 

PoodleMommy

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#32

Are you freakin serious! OMG...this is going to sound mean, and it isn't meant to, but it is a fact that gets drilled into breeders from the get go...There are pet owners that should ONLY be pet owners.

Getting what she wanted out of her...actually no, i don't think she really did except for the fact the female is a SUPER mother and produced beautiful babies. Of course only TWO..so that limits her choice on who to keep since the girl is the one she is watching. So if she doesn't turn out, what does that leave her with?? Um...bills, and no show puppy, but two wonderful puppies is WONDERFUL PET HOMES! Never to be bred....wow she would certainly come out on top wouldn't she...NOT.

As for why didn't she go long ago...She was being SHOWN, she is a beautiful girl, that has good things to offer the breed. wow, that really doesn't seem so hard to understand. A nice girl, health tested, and bred to a nice male, health tested. Produced TWO puppies, nice babies. She has a new and fabulous home for mom, where she will be spayed and live out her life with a family as the only dog....where is the wrong in this?

As for "have you worked with her"
As she has said, technically isn't anything WRONG with her, just not the personality that works in HER HOUSE! wow, didn't see that hard to understand either!

If a GOOD BREEDER kept everything they produced, you would then label them a puppymill or hoarder. We can't keep every dog we produce, and if there is a better option FOR THE DOG, we make a responsible decision and let them HAVE THAT.





Well she has posted before, with a small intro, but not alot of people read that.

But also, we see people come and post links to their breeding or what have you and everyone flocks to look and judge from that...why did we break pattern....though the word spammy is fun...lmao

Oh well...i guess what i really have to say is...

Small "hobby" breeders can't keep everything in their homes. If we did there would be no room and we would never move forward. I have three boxers in my house...if/when i breed my girl, i will have a keeper, if it doesn't turn out i will place it...so is that also a shame on me? And if i keep a girl that doesn't like showing, Much like her mother, but place it in a pet home intact, and test her then breed her, is that also a shame on me....I guess when you are breeding you have to see things differently or else you would run out of room and sanity!

ah well

I forsee this getting ridiculous fast....have fun!
interesting... that YOU have to answer ALL the questions posed to HER. :rolleyes:

AGAIN: I know breeders place retired dogs... if this is her REAL reason, she should have posted THAT and not something else from the beginning. So is she getting rid of the dog because she cant handle the temperament or because she has no space for her?

And it is "spammy" to only post your own threads... she has never once gotten involved in a thread that didnt promote HER and HER DOGS.
 

corgipower

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#33
Well she has posted before, with a small intro, but not alot of people read that.

But also, we see people come and post links to their breeding or what have you and everyone flocks to look and judge from that...why did we break pattern....though the word spammy is fun...lmao
Yea, I guess that was missed, considering it was almost immediately followed with posts of links to her webcam. The links that I flock to are those that are posted by people who are active members of the community. I hope she stays and becomes an active member of the community, maybe she's just too busy with the pups to post much.

When someone comes on, immediately starts posting links to their site and doesn't contribute to anything else on the board - yup, it's spammy.
 
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#34
awww aren't you sweet, when i see a GOOD dog person being flogged you are right i answer too, because honestly i know it will be done to me, and is done to me (not here yet) so why can't i answer, as ANY breeder has to make the SAME decisions. And knowing the dogs personally helps as well.

*head desk*
Where did anyone say she couldn't HANDLE the temperament. YOU assumed that. She said she didn't want to LIVE with it. That the DOG had a home lined up, and it is a great one, and she will have a HAPPY life. oh yeah...that screams not handling a temperament. Sounds more like the dog can go on to have a life where she can be who she is and not have to be "handled", no stress to behave in a way that is not natural for her. She isn't nasty or mean, but oh heavens, we wouldn't want to admit that a dog can be happier in a home other than our own and will be CAREFULLY placed in the right home.

Nevermind, it just isn't worth the time!
Great cam...so glad to be able to watch such a lovely litter grow up and start on their great adventure of life!

S
 

PoodleMommy

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#36
awww aren't you sweet, when i see a GOOD dog person being flogged you are right i answer too, because honestly i know it will be done to me, and is done to me (not here yet) so why can't i answer, as ANY breeder has to make the SAME decisions. And knowing the dogs personally helps as well.
you have every right to answer and that's fine.

But people are still going to be skeptical of HER when she wont answer questions and when simple questions ARE asked she immediately freaks out INSTEAD of answering.
 

MsBehave

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#37
This is my last answer to the Yorkie pet persons accusations and assumptions:

There is not just one reason I am placing Panda. I have no desire to discuss the other reason(s) with you, as I am convinced you would not understand. The wonderful thing is, she has an amazing home waiting for her and I am so thrilled for her to be going to live with such wonderful people.

You keep saying I can't "handle" her. I NEVER SAID I COULD NOT HANDLE HER TEMPERAMENT for craps sake!! I said I choose not to live with that trait, in my home, with small children. I have lived with her, as I already stated, for two years-ish. She is not a "problem dog".

Now, onto the other posts and some of my own ramblings:

As far as "spamming" the board w/ my website and webcam, I apologize if that is how it came across. I thought that those who thought I might be irresponsible could go to the website and LEARN about my dogs and my breeding practices. I know MANY who were so excited to see the puppycam...still are. I have met a lot of neat people by posted the puppycam link, and do not regret it at all. I am not trying to sell puppies.

And yes...with two young children, three dogs (now two puppies) and twenty-ish birds, I am pretty busy and may not come here and post on a daily basis. Hopefully this thread will describe my responsibility toward my breed well enough for those that matter to understand. It has nothing to do with bowing down to me...it has to do with like mindsets of responsible breeders. There are always going to be those who will never "get it". I accept that. I accept that from this thread, I have likely garnered the respect from some members and the disgust from others. I'm ok with that.

Have a great day.

MsB
 

Lizmo

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#38
Tips, just stay polite and answer what questions you can. Most of this is genuine interest in the welfare of dogs. Even if someone doesn't like your answer, as long as you have a decent answer (not a 'cause i felt like it') people here will respect you.
Definitely....

I do hope you'll stick around. You seem like you want to do the best for your dogs and seem like a pretty honest person. :) Hopefully we'll get to see your new little one while she's growing up!

Soo, to change the subject a bit...How'd you get your start in Corgis?
 

MsBehave

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#39
Definitely....

I do hope you'll stick around. You seem like you want to do the best for your dogs and seem like a pretty honest person. :) Hopefully we'll get to see your new little one while she's growing up!

Soo, to change the subject a bit...How'd you get your start in Corgis?
Thank you.

Well....its every breeders horror story, though not so much "back in the day"...I got my first Pembroke as a Christmas present, believe it or not.

For some strange reason, my parents narrowed the dog choices down to two: a Corgi or a Samoyed (wth? I know...just...wth?) and I chose the Pembroke because I thought they had cute butts (still do!). The kept saying "so if you were going to get a dog, and it was between this and that, which would you choose...not that you are going to get a dog, but just if you were going to...which you are not...which would you choose?" LOL.

A friend of the family's daughter showed Keeshond and Am Foxhounds (and later, Poms) and found a reputable breeder of Pembrokes for my parents. I grew up training her (the friend of the family's daughters) puppies, helping her stack and show dogs, etc. Did lots of obedience classes with my dog, and others dogs as a kid, as well.

And so it began. My parents, not being "dog people" were not into the thought of showing/breeding, so she was spayed, but for as long as I can remember....I knew I would do it when I was grown and on my own. And I did. :)

Thanks for asking, fun trip down memory lane....

MsB

By the by...I'd love to share stacked pics of Anna as she grows. Right now she is a big cute fuzzball...luckily not TOO fuzzy (we sometimes get "fluffies", longcoats...automatic pets.) and is marked really pretty. She has a pet home waiting to find out if I am keeping her, I hate to disappoint them but really hope she turns out for me. ;) I will be taking her to my regional specialty in late may/early june so should get some good feedback from breeders and/or breeder-judges on her...and they may have a "baby puppy" match that I can enter her in...which will be fun!
 
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#40
We are only going by the infomation you have given us. :) Maybe if you explained to us why it's normal for this breed to have aggression, it might be more helpful?
They are bred to herd cattle... nuff said.

No, but in all seriousness, the herding breeds that are meant to herd cattle have a much harder temperament and the stubborness that is required often leads to issues w/ dog aggression. I don't think its so much that they hate other dogs as that these breeds do not put up with shenanigans. From anything. Cow, dog, etc.
 

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