need to figure this dog out

[corgipower]

nyx is 8 months, female malinois from working lines. she has extremely high prey/play drive.

she is also very reactive and worries easily. squirrels, birds, dogs other than mine, small children -- movement -- gets her stirred up. she reacts. her hackles go up (fear). if at a distance, she will freeze up and stare. if a little closer, she starts lunging and barking. when she was younger. if she's closer than that she will attempt to leave and to hide near me.

if she's approached by a friendly stranger in a calm manner, she is very friendly, and she gets along with my dogs, although she does like to try to hump my other mal, and her hackles go up and she gets a little nervous when she plays with the corgis -- which is limited.

when she reacts, what i have tried is:

when she was a young pup, i kept her at a little distance and let her watch, and if she was comfortable i would gradually bring her closer to things,always making sure she didn't get scared or hurt.

as she got a little older and her obedience training got underway, i would distract her from things with a ball or food, and ask her to watch me.

i have attempted recently to have her sit or lay down, but she is too tense and too worked up to be able to, and continuing to ask for the sit or down only adds to her loading and stresses her.

i have sat with her at a comfortable distance from squirrels, birds, dogs, children where she has locked her sights on them and frozen but not reacted and massaged her, with rewards when she refocused on me.

i am not seeing any improvement.

 

[oc_spirit]

Sounds like she didnt quite get enough socialization as a puppy. Not saying you didnt take her out at all, but just not often enough and not to where she saw enough stuff Mals, especially from working lines, are nervy, high strung dogs which is what makes them good at what they are bred to do in this day in age. I would highly recommend you get into a bite sport with her making sure to find a trainer who actually knows what they are doing and isnt just into it because "making dogs bite people is cool". The trainer will know how to work with Mals and what methods are best suited for them and will be able to guide you into properly socializing her so she isnt so reactive to distractions. Also doing the bitework will challange her both mentally and physically so that she will be at least a little calmer which will also lessen her reactiveness a bit. If she is at all under-excercised she might start looking for something to react to and give her a reason to turn on.

I highly recommend getting in contact with people at www.workingdogforum.com Most of the people at this site are bitesport people fully competant with GSDs, Mals, and Dutchies. They will be able to help you better because protection breeds are what they are all about. They will also be able to guide you to find a good trainer.

Action needs to be taken now because a nervy girl reacting to low stimulus so quick like this is a high potential to become a dog who bit the wrong person. And again doing the bitesport will ehlp you teach her what is a threat she should turn on to and what to ignore. It will also give you control over her so you can turn her off when she turns on no matter how high the intensity of the situation is.

 

[corgipower]

i have been planning on doing protection sport with her, and it is what i bought her for.

i doubt she was undersocialized, she practically grew up at the park, and i work at a kennel and bring her with me. she may have been better off with a more interactive socialization. all my other dogs were fine with "look but don't touch" socialization (they were never allowed to play with dogs other than my own.) i don't know if she would have been better off in a puppy playgroup when she was younger. i also wonder if somewhere i did something that enhanced her reactiveness. she definitely is the most challenging dog i have had

i do plan on taking her to the trainer i work with for protection as soon as i can, hopefully next week. i do a lot of tug work with her at home and at the park.

it is possible that she needs more exercise...she gets a lot, mind you, but a mal at her age...
(*corgi wishes she had a fenced yard, or even a dog run)

i absolutely agree that this has the potential to become dangerous, and i can only hope that i can turn things around.

i'll check out the other forum. thanks!

 

[otch1]

Hi corgipower, a few key statements were made in your posts that indicate some things you're doing may possibly be contributing to your dogs behavioral issue. Massaging her while she's focusing intently on movement, in a situation that's stressful for her. Not allowing socialization that includes physical contact with other dogs, as a puppy. Initiating a command when your dog is likely to lose it and then unable to execute it due to the dogs stress level. Her being 8 months of age and most likely going through a lot of hormonal changes right now, and being brought into a kennel environment daily. All of these can contribute. Not all dogs have an appropriate temperament for protection work so you'll want to make sure her obedience work is rock solid and her behavioral issues under complete control before starting that type of training. A dog with drive that also has a bit of instability is an accident waiting to happen. Increasing exercise, in most cases, is often helpful for an anxious dog, but it sounds like this particular dog needs to work on slowing down and focusing on her handler. There should be a desensitization process included in your training, first in a controlled environment before you hit the parks with her again. It sounds like you've found a trainer you like, so good luck with this! Look forward to hearing about her progress.

 

[corgipower]

Hi corgipower, a few key statements were made in your posts that indicate some things you're doing may possibly be contributing to your dogs behavioral issue.

hmmm...sounds like all of them,, actually:yikes:

Massaging her while she's focusing intently on movement, in a situation that's stressful for her.

i understand the reasons for not doing this, but i was out of ideas at the time, and i did get her to relax and focus on me the first couple times i did it, but not now.

Not allowing socialization that includes physical contact with other dogs, as a puppy.

it worked for my other dogs, and my thinking was that it would prevent later confusion when she was told she couldn't play with other dogs. there was no way to anticipate, at that age, what the effect would be.

at her age now, and the behaviors she is exhibiting, would she be better off to find a quiet playgroup or would that be dangerous?

Initiating a command when your dog is likely to lose it and then unable to execute it due to the dogs stress level.

agreed.

Her being 8 months of age and most likely going through a lot of hormonal changes right now, and being brought into a kennel environment daily.

she was at the kennel when she was younger, because no one was home to take her out for pottying and exercise. she doesn't still go because of the stress it creates. but it may have been upsetting at an impressionable age.

it sounds like this particular dog needs to work on slowing down and focusing on her handler. There should be a desensitization process included in your training

any suggestions on how to do this?

 

[Doberluv]

It doesn't sound like she had ample socialization for her temperament. And I agree that protection/bite work probably isn't the best thing for a dog with the temperament you describe. They need to be rock solid and fearless from what I understand. I think obedience and agility would be more up her alley...or rally O...something fun, fast, atheletic, rewarding, not very stressful.

I noticed that in your post too...the non-contact with other dogs. (I had the same situation with my Dobe....not enough, every day type of thing) He is reactive on a leash only with other dogs.

So, a desesatization program that your trainer can help you with would be great... and I'd associate her fearless, non-reactiveness to the stimuli that gets her riled up with high value treats and praise. And only when she's not aroused, but sees these dogs or people....things etc do you feed her. Keep the treats coming as she is able to see these things without alerting strongly or getting worked up at all.

Having her lie down is a more vulnerable position and can be difficult when she's in those situations. When you see her alert to something and she hasn't yet "gone off," you can turn her sideways a little bit. Getting her to look at you is good when you find yourself too close to something. But whenever possible, it's good to let her see the thing IF she's at a comfortable distance to learn that that thing eqauls a good thing...Fantastic treats on an empty stomach happen when those scary things are around, (but not too close).

When she sees something and is calm, you can then reinforce her with a piece of steak or chicken and turn her away, walk a teensy ways further in the opposite direction. That is also a reward for her calmness at this early stage of things. Later, as she comes to believe you that these things are really very good things, you can skip that walking away. Keep feeding.

If she gets worked up, you need to remain calm and not react to her too much. Turn her sideways so she's not face to face with another dog or whatever. Ask for a sit WHEN she's better on her obedience. Always try to catch things ahead of time, when you see the very early signs of intention to react. Get to her first and have a plan. For instance, if you're walking along a a path and you see another dog coming toward you, make an arc way over to the side, laterally, so that her body is perpendicular to the oncoming dog and don't close up the arc until the dog is past. Then you can turn and walk behind the other dog in the same direction. That sometimes helps. Just stay well back where she is comfortable.

Actually, why don't you get the book, Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons. It addresses a lot of this very thing...excellent book!

I do hope she will improve and the more things you can find to increase her confidence, the better. Look online for confidence boosting games, like tug, letting her win. (rules must be in place first) Hide and seek, finding hidden things. Agility is a great confidence booster, IMO, but obedience needs to get better first.

Let us know how things progress. That is definitely a challenge. But I think you'll do fine with some help. Good luck.

 

[otch1]

Hi again... if you're going to do massage, there are certain points on your dog you'll want to make yourself familiar with. Recommend you pick up a book by Linda Tellington-Jones, on T-Touch. I've done workshops and clinics with her and you'd be amazed at how this can aid in aggression and anxiety in all animals. (I first went to her with one of my horses issues over 20 years ago and now often use this in my dog training.) The massage is done before taking your dog into the stressful environment, not after walking into it when the adrenalin has already spiked. No, I would not put her into a play group at this time, until you've had a little more work with a trainer. While most daycares' employees have great handling skills, they are not educated in dealing with behavioral issues and can be slow to properly read a dog. A kennel environment can be overwhelming for some pups and it sounds like you're already aware that it was for yours and have changed your routine. That's a good first step. Lastly, when you start your session with your trainer, you should be able to tell her/him that you have a difficult time getting your dog to focus. Example, when I start puppies like yours, we take a furry wind up toy and send it across the room while practicing down stays. Their stay has to be very reliable, then we head outdoors and set them up with bigger distractions, like that squirrel! Here, it takes about a week before we go outdoors and introduce them to the cats, goats, Llama, during a down stay... but not until they're very successful with lesser stimuli first. Always set them up to succeed. Start teaching your dog to "watch" you. A great exercise is to bait your dog, show piece of food and then close your hand. Extend both arms out from your body, bent at the elbows and keep your arms out at about the level of your hips for your puppy. Don't move them. Your dog is in a sit stay in front of you. Your dog will look at your hand, encourage you to open that hand, maybe even grab for it and attempt to mouth it. Remain patient and place your dog back into a sit repeating "watch". As soon as there's an eye flicker to look at you, catch her and reward by opening your hand and giving the food while telling her "yes!" In time, you'll reward only for her looking away from the cookie and directly at you when she hears "watch". Eventually, you've taught the command to watch you regardless of food and she's rewarded only for maintaining eye contact with you. When she' mastered that kind of focus in class, take her outdoors and practice "watch" with your food and strangers moving around her, a dog going by, ect. "Yes!" is the word that goes along with the release of the food. Make sure she's hungry and make it fun! Good luck.

 

[otch1]

Hi Carrie, typing at same time you were. Also a great training book!!

 

[howiep]

You have been doing a lot of reinforcing of the very behavior you are trying to "quell".

She is not scared, or in need of socialization, she wants to chase those things.

All that massaging, treat, and ball stuff has been feeding an anxous mind, and telling her to focus on it more.

You can't quell a drive by reinforcing it as good behavior.

I see by your post that you do only positve type stuff, so I suggest you reread your books, an see where you are going wrong, so you can back up the bus a little.

 

[Doberluv]

Otch...as I was reading the OP, I was thinking many of the same things you said about temperament and such. I also went back and edited my post....It wasn't detailed enough or long enough. ROFLOL. (joke...my posts are disgustingly too long)

Yes, I don't know too much about bite work, but I can imagine they need very stable temperaments. And this might be not only caused by too little sociailzation, but it can be the dog's inherent temperament. And those dogs need even more socialization which sometimes catches people off guard I think.

The hackles up, the humping...these are signs of stress and insecurity. The attempting to leave and hide behind you....again. Flight distance is what makes a dog want to go after something or run away. Those are the two ways to make more distance. Prey drive is one thing, but what you have described makes me think she's trying to make the distance bigger between her and the object of her arousal. A good trainer will be able to watch her body language better and determine that. At any rate, regardless, she needs to learn to obey you. She will get an outlet for her drives in other ways, not when you're taking a walk.

I too would avoid highly stressful situations like a whole bunch of dogs at once. Once the physiological changes start happening, you can't reach the dog anyhow to teach it a thing. Heart rate, blood pressure, hormones, neurons firing up a storm....nah...that's for later after a lot of baby steps.

Nice to see you Otch.....you've been MIA lately. LOL.

 

[corgipower]

When you see her alert to something and she hasn't yet "gone off," you can turn her sideways a little bit.]

i've tried that, and it works if i have a treat or a toy and bribe her to turn, but without the bribe, it's not possible. it loads her even more, and she starts jumping up, tries to bite me, barking, growling, while continuing to try to pull towards the "something".

she pretty much is in a complete frenzy and going in multiple directions physically while her brain can't quite figure out any of them.

 

[corgipower]

You have been doing a lot of reinforcing of the very behavior you are trying to "quell".

possibly, but i don't get the impression that she has been "there" sufficiently to make an association of the behavior being reinforced.

She is not scared, or in need of socialization, she wants to chase those things.

how is this not fear?

if she's closer than that she will attempt to leave and to hide near me.

All that massaging, treat, and ball stuff has been feeding an anxous mind, and telling her to focus on it more.

please clarify this.

You can't quell a drive by reinforcing it as good behavior.

yes, that i know. massaging, treats, toys are not being used to reinforce the behavior, it's being used as an attempt to distract her from the object she has her sights locked on to. the treats and toys are only given when she refocuses on me.

the massaging started when i realized how stiff and tense she was during these issues.

I see by your post that you do only positve type stuff, so I suggest you reread your books, an see where you are going wrong, so you can back up the bus a little.

not in the least. i have done my share of correcting a dog. i do balanced training.

but you cannot use aversives to counteract fear.

hmmm, which "books" are you referring to?

 

[otch1]

You're right Corgipower, timing is everything when teaching your dog to focus on her handler. That's why teaching this, before presenting the stressful distractions, is very important. You don't want to turn this into a battle of wills, which it sounds like it's become if you're getting barking, growling and lunging even after taking ahold of your dog. You'll "back up the bus a bit" as Howie said and take baby steps as Doberluv said. (Howie, have you been here before on chaz? Thought we may have spoken.) Your trainer should be able to give you some exercises in class, to help you then succeed in a "busier" environment. Hi Carrie! It's been crazy here, not much time to post. Thanks for noticing though. I do feel cared for now!!)

 

[corgipower]

That's why teaching this, before presenting the stressful distractions, is very important.

yup. i was thinking i should probably keep her at home and work on the obedience, but wasn't sure if by not continuing to take her out in public she would have a worse time (ACK!!! if it gets worse, i'm in big trouble) later on.

 

[otch1]

Work on "controlled" socialization. She still needs it, but in a group class, a private training session, a drive in the car, a walk around your neighborhood, visiting friends. Just not hitting the parks yet. Spend 1 week training daily, setting aside 1 hr per day for very specific attention exercises, practicing "stay" and "leave- it" and see if she's better in a week.

 

[MelissaCato]

You have been doing a lot of reinforcing of the very behavior you are trying to "quell".

She is not scared, or in need of socialization, she wants to chase those things.

All that massaging, treat, and ball stuff has been feeding an anxous mind, and telling her to focus on it more.

You can't quell a drive by reinforcing it as good behavior.

Soooo so true.

Looks like it's only a matter of time before this great breed is on the hit list.

IMO, even if this dog is trained by a pro, the dog and owner isn't a match. Or this thread wouldn't be here.

 

[Doberluv]

You haven't been here nearly long enough MC or you'd have seen hundreds of people who were having trouble with their dogs who got positive guidance and support here, plus some help from their own trainers and they had great success. So, I have no doubt that Corgipower and her dog will be just fine with some hard, consistant and proper training. And a good trainer, who knows behavior and positive training methods who can evaluate the dog and see her body language and what exactly is going on, something impossible to know with any certainty over the Inernet.

 

[oc_spirit]

I recommended getting involved in bitework not because the dog is ready to do bitework this very second, but because a great personal protection trainer will be the perfect person to bring this dog to in order to correct the issues she currently has and then proceed to make her stable enough to move on to bitework when the time is right. This means of course solidifying obedience first! Good trainers of personal protection typically work with Mals, Dutchies and GSDs (among other breeds of course) so they are very familiar with what does and doesnt work with Mals and what would be the best approach for this girl in order to fix her issues while still transforing her into a bitesport dog, if that makes sense LOL

And something else I wanted to bring up, socialization doesnt just include interacting with humans and dogs. Socialization is exposing your dog to lots of different stimuli and teaching him how to act appropriately to each one. This can range from a field of horses to a pond of geese, to garbage piled high in an odd way and then the top garbage bag toppling over, to construction sites (with those big loud scary machines) to...well...everything!

 

[showdawgz]

Soooo so true.

Looks like it's only a matter of time before this great breed is on the hit list.

IMO, even if this dog is trained by a pro, the dog and owner isn't a match. Or this thread wouldn't be here.

I completely agree. I am not trying to insult your experience level, or ability to control such a high drive dog, but sometimes you just dont click.

It doesnt sound like fear to me either. She obviouly has a high drive, and wants whatever is moving. It can look like fear and agression when in fact she is desperately trying to fulfill that desire to chase/kill (term used lightly). Hackles are used in "attack" mode, and humping is a sign of dominance.

However, she does probably show signs of stress, because she is not able to do what she is thriving for. A high drive dog sees it as a major blow and disappointment to have to obide a command while fighting the urge to get its prey and that causes stress.

 

[MelissaCato]

You haven't been here nearly long enough MC or you'd have seen hundreds of people who were having trouble with their dogs who got positive guidance and support here, plus some help from their own trainers and they had great success. So, I have no doubt that Corgipower and her dog will be just fine with some hard, consistant and proper training. And a good trainer, who knows behavior and positive training methods who can evaluate the dog and see her body language and what exactly is going on, something impossible to know with any certainty over the Inernet.

You also posted this ...

Yes, I don't know too much about bite work, but I can imagine they need very stable temperaments. And this might be not only caused by too little sociailzation, but it can be the dog's inherent temperament.

As I see it, your already putting the blame on breeding, when in fact the OP is describing a typical Mal pup without a proper start or is owned by a novice.
Also, this Mal in question isn't even into the "psychotic" age yet.