My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies

ufimych said:
Smkie, are you a "guardian" of your dog? I am not. A quality life is always somewhat risky. All our most interesting breeds had been created under harsh conditions of life and physical work. For you personal feeling, it is important so the dog would live long. Evolution is made not by individuals, which live long, but rather by individuals, which left more viable offspring. You spay (or neuter) your dog and keep it for hagging, kissing and looking at him at home. However, such a dog is evolutionary dead, because it cannot contribute in future generation genetically. Look at the population, not individuals, if you care about breed. To my taste, active and capable to perform in field (hunting primarily) dogs are most appealing esthetically and as my companions. Wild animals are most beautiful, but they live in populations, struggling for existence and this is what made them so efficient, tough and beautiful. Aboriginal dogs, which are less dependent on humans and their care, are closer to wild animals and to remain so they must be put to a test to make sure they are what they ought to be. Good dogs love life to a purpose, not just for eating and sleeping. They share with us (well, some of us) the excitement of hard work outside. Those are best dogs for able bodied people. Their very existence is in jeopardy, because of absence of the right environment.
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Yes i am a guardian of my domesticated dog. AS I should be. IF you feed your dog and provide it even primative shelter your dog is domesticated too. THat alone makes you responsible for what happens to it. Because a dog dies a preventable death at an early age doesn't make it living in jeopary of a right enviorment, it makes you an callous and irresponsible owner. If you keep breeding sooner or later you will get a litter that does not go smoothly. If your not there to monitor your bitch will die or the pups will die or your lose the whole show. ONly once during my 20 years at the kennel did a pup come wrong, but the agony of that female is indescribable. WE did have dogs that needed a clean out shot or else they would result with a fever and infection. Vet care is absolutely necessary at that time. IF your going to breed you need to be there and you need to have er vet care available.
IF your not there an inexperienced bitch will lay on or step on her newborn pups and they will die. A rediculous loss that could be easly prevented. I saw a pup from a mother at a field trial that bit the belly out of her pup while chewing off the umbilical chord. Wild animals very often lose a first litter and a whole lot of them die because of fleas. I assume you use preventative there as well.
THe only benefit of your way is to make it less effort on your part, and cheaper for your financial standing. IT has nothing to do with making your bitch or the puppies stronger or more independent.
 
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I'm with Smkie ......I've handled too many whelps and know what could have gone wrong had I not been there . I always took the female and pups in as soon as I could . The clean out shot is so important ! With one female it expelled a pup that had died very early into pregnacy . The female would have died without the shot .
 
smkie said:
Yes i am a guardian of my domesticated dog. AS I should be. IF you feed your dog and provide it even primative shelter your dog is domesticated too. THat alone makes you responsible for what happens to it. Because a dog dies a preventable death at an early age doesn't make it living in jeopary of a right enviorment, it makes you an callous and irresponsible owner. If you keep breeding sooner or later you will get a litter that does not go smoothly. If your not there to monitor your bitch will die or the pups will die or your lose the whole show. ONly once during my 20 years at the kennel did a pup come wrong, but the agony of that female is indescribable. WE did have dogs that needed a clean out shot or else they would result with a fever and infection. Vet care is absolutely necessary at that time. IF your going to breed you need to be there and you need to have er vet care available.
IF your not there an inexperienced bitch will lay on or step on her newborn pups and they will die. A rediculous loss that could be easly prevented. I saw a pup from a mother at a field trial that bit the belly out of her pup while chewing off the umbilical chord. Wild animals very often lose a first litter and a whole lot of them die because of fleas. I assume you use preventative there as well.
THe only benefit of your way is to make it less effort on your part, and cheaper for your financial standing. IT has nothing to do with making your bitch or the puppies stronger or more independent.
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I fully agree.
 
Its one thing tp practice natyral methods, Im fine with that. But letting your bitch DIE because she had a whelping complication simply because that nature is un believable
 
Ok I am a little late but I will add something.
When a person or persons decide to adopt/buy a dog you become responsible for that dog the second that creature puts it's paw on your doors step until it passes. In that time you are must provide food, water, shelter, health and love. I am not talking about putting your dog in the yard with a dog house and some food and water. Dogs need more than that otherwise it is inhumane.

Though on the plus side congrats about the pups but unfortunatly you need to provide a proper diet (very important for nursing mothers) and she needs to be moved inside to protect the puppies from chill and heat stroke.And It would be a great idea to get them a vet check.
Best wishes
Tasia.
 
Leave nature to the wolves . These are domesticated dogs and we plan their litters .
 
Tasia
you're absolutely wrong. bringing the pups into a climate controled environment actually weakens their thermoregulation system & makes them MORE prone to heat stroke. this is true of all animal & people too. i almost lost my dobe pup when i was a kid because my mom forced me to move her out in the middle of the summer after she had been raise inside. even though she had plenty of clean fresh water & well ventilated shady shelter her body couldn't self regulate to the heat after the move. she finally was able to become an outside dog in the fall after it cooled to what she was used to indoors.
another example is my first trip to Iraq we had no AC but were fully functional. even though we registered temps as high as 140 we had no heat casualties and maintained a high op tempo w/ no ill effects from the heat. the last two trips we were required to live in climate controlled quarters and had several heat injuries and when people worked out in the heat their performance was very obviously impaired and our highest temps only reached the low 130s.
people aren't dogs & vice versa, but you can learn alot about the one by observing the other & vice versa. allowing the pups to maintain their natural thermo regulation will reduce the risk of both hyper & hypothermia. the only exception to this would be an obviously abnormally high heat such as 110-20s in the humid southeastern mountains where 100 is unusually high or a freakish cold spel like the low 40s in the daytime in July.

codling them doesn't make your dog stronger. honestly my shag is a better hunter since i listen to him and let him live 100 % outdoors. he's been way more productive, less stressed & happier more positive attitude.
 
Dekka said:
i am for as natural as possible.

But Mommakat2x.. do you think I should have let Dekka's pups die? I should have just stood back and let her die refusing to assist?

What gets me is the idea that he is doing things 'naturally' .. no he's not. Its the contradictions that get me. Feeding kibble and ground beef of all things is far less natural than what I feed.. and I don't go on about be all natural.

I too am minimal vaccine, raw food, minimal vetting etc etc. But I will no let my dogs die because its 'natural' I won't brag about who natural my dogs are and then contradict that very statement.
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Um, no one has died, why is dying pups or bitches even an issue? It didn't happen. People are making up hype to put the OP down for doing things differently. I don't agree with standing back and watching a bitch die during whelping, but I didn't see where they OP stated he would do that either. I remember something about snake bites and/or getting sick.

Domesticated or not, animals are animals, whether we like it or not. Are we saying that domestication takes away instinct? Then why hunt, chase, work, etc. our dogs? What's the point?
 
thats_how_I_roll said:
In that time you are must provide food, water, shelter, health and love. I am not talking about putting your dog in the yard with a dog house and some food and water. Dogs need more than that otherwise it is inhumane.

Tasia.
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So anyone who keeps their dog outside most of the time (or even all of the time) because the dog would RATHER be outdoors and ENJOYS beings outdoors is being inhumane? Can you please clarify your statement?

ETA: Because in your post you seem to think that anyone who does that does NOT love their dog or provide healthcare, shelter, etc.
 
mommakatx2 said:
Um, no one has died, why is dying pups or bitches even an issue? It didn't happen. People are making up hype to put the OP down for doing things differently. I don't agree with standing back and watching a bitch die during whelping, but I didn't see where they OP stated he would do that either. I remember something about snake bites and/or getting sick.

Domesticated or not, animals are animals, whether we like it or not. Are we saying that domestication takes away instinct? Then why hunt, chase, work, etc. our dogs? What's the point?
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This isn't the OPs first litter. They have already said they don't intervene. No dog or pup died THIS litter. The fact they would let that happen though has people upset.
 
WE have Missouri winters here which can be quite cold. Our dogs had a whelping box in the house to make it easier for ME to keep an eye on them. OUTside in the barn there was a set of kennels built in. They had a heat lamp where the pups could move closer to it or further away. Mom also had a shelf where when she was tired of the pups she could get up there for a break. Labs have big litters and Mom needs to have some peace. Since my boss won first and second in the Nationals with Nip and Tuck, had a trophy case full of silver and a room full of ribbons i dont' think this kind of set up hurt their instinct or hunting ability one bit.

Secondly it took a sign shop to keep the kennel going. Breeding was not the income maker of our kennel with only one or at the most two litters a year. Training made up the rest. EVen though the dogs were in outside runs there were heated pipes under their houses and a specially coated lightbulb under the water buckets to keep them from freezing. These were tough dogs that jumped into freezing water and hunting in all climates.
 
The op has already stated he does not Ever intervein in the whelp in one post he also mentioned he's never present for the whelp... So yes, in an ergency he would rather let nature take it's course and if that means the death of the mother and/or pups so be it obviously that female/ those pups were not worthy of life because the died at whelp ( completly preventable with intervention...
Please note this Is what the op has been saying about his dogs...
 
THat is why I believe this to be irresponsible and negligent breeding practice. It could cause untold amount of misery. IT could cause unnecessary death. WHy anyone would think this is ok is beyond me. We had outside year round dogs at the kennels. 2020 hindsight, i feel badly about this. They each should have had so much more. But it didn't hurt them physically, but i also don't believe it made them better hunters. I have seen house labs walk away first place with my own eyes so i know that to be true. SOme dogs prefer to be outside. Some dogs do not care for being affectionate. I have met one that cared not for one pat but it should be their choice how they wish to live. This op should at least ...at the very least have a camera out there to monitor if there were trouble. A guard rail to keep pups from being squished, and a clean out shot to ensure what GRammy wrote about. A sick dog loses her milk and you end up with either bottle feeding, finding a surrogate bitch that could take a couple or a lost litter. Since the op doesnt' interfer that would mean dead puppies. THat's abuse.

Funny when i started working at the kennels i was at the end of 12. I was small enough to fit in the whelping box and eager enough to not care how long it took. I still remember seeing my first litter born. My JOB was to makes sure everything went well..to care for the puppies.. work with, handle, socialize and eventually demonstrate for the new owner. I was then to make sure the new owner new how to care for the puppy. You do that for 20 years you learn alot about what works, and what can go wrong. WE did not lose puppies. The biggest litter ever was 14. As to instinct the number one search and seizure dog Power Pete out of Pistol Pete is in Nebraska. When our kennels closed due to my boss's alzhimers these people came for our dogs and continued the line. So i speak with a bit of experience.



My heart will always go out to the dogs that are kept in pens in the back yard because of the hidious myth that being a house dog will diminish their drive. THat's just crap. They have no undercoat at all and have the high pain tolerance to shiver off pounds. All you do is have to feed them more. The amount of training that happens indoors will never happen in a run..or on walks. A dog has to learn so much more that follows them right out into the field. You end up with a better trained dog that can have a fuller life. THat's my opinion and i know there are some out there that would disagree. I have seen a few of those people's dogs and I wouldn't trade them for anything. My high drive pointer can go anywhere, had a huge amount of people that care about him and are glad he comes. THat beats the heck out of being kept in a pen..and yes..he does get to run each day and spends just as much time out there or more than most hunting dogs. IT's a real life. I wish i could go back in the past and give each of those dogs that lived in the kennels...that were trained each day and trialed on the weekends spring and fall, even a 10th of what Victor has.
 
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What I've taken from this thread is that there is a whole spectrum of degrees between breedings that have obviously been so manipulated as to be to the long term the detriment of a breed (breeds that have been interfered with to the extent that they can no longer whelp naturally) and going to the other extreme, forgetting that they are DOMESTIC dogs and have varying degrees of their ancestors' instincts intact.
 
I Dont' believe assisting a birth causes dogs to not be able to have their puppies. I believe breeds body shapes can really get in the way and not every dog is cut out to be a mother. BUt wild animals lose their first litters all the time. THey have big litters to account for loss. THey die and we just don't know about it. THat is the only difference, we just don't see it. FOr me keeping pain and misery down as much as possible is our responibility for making them service our needs eIther as a companion or as a hunting dog. WE owe them that.

IF you ever saw yourself a dog with a pup stuck inside of her that she could not pass you would know why i am so against not being there. IT is just so wrong i can't even put it in words.
 
Not talking about assistance with the whelp, Smkie, I'm talking about overall interference with the breed as a whole, like English Bulldogs, Frenchies, etc., that CAN'T whelp naturally and have to have C-sections. That is too much interference. We should never have tinkered until we brought those dogs to that sorry state.
 
Renee750il said:
Not talking about assistance with the whelp, Smkie, I'm talking about overall interference with the breed as a whole, like English Bulldogs, Frenchies, etc., that CAN'T whelp naturally and have to have C-sections. That is too much interference. We should never have tinkered until we brought those dogs to that sorry state.
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I agree.
 
I do agree with that Renee...
But I know even an " experienced" mother can have issues and in the ops case that poor girl would be left to struggle :(
 
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