Let's Talk About Owner Responsibility
- Thread starter DanL
- Start date
DemitriousK
Nobody In Particular
Not all bigotry is equal. Is the reason for that because nobody has refused to let an uninformed pet owner to drink from a drinking fountain... or get a seat on a buss? Is this like different kinds of abuse not being equal? Hard to pass that one by the kid who's been beaten all his childhood... I'm sorry your beatings dont quite amount to this other kids rape. So... I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with your parents on this one. Be careful what you declare on such a slippery slope. There's always someone willing to take it one step further than you meant. I guess the moral here should be: It's ok to verbally and emotionally abuse someone... so long as they're the least intelligent person in the room? It's easy to say that someone deserves it. Especially when they cant defend themselves. Especially when they wont.
The fact of the matter probably is that a very few people (percentage wise) are likely to make up the group being discussed here. But when 1% of the population accounts for 70% of the voice... They might as well be 70% of the population for the effect that they have.
But thats the rub, isnt it. That 1% of the people... The narrow minded, overly communicative, small heart, large temper, cruel, and unforgiving 1% are the people who get to have all the fun. Those are the people who can - at their whim - choose who does and doesnt have a good time here on chaz. Yep... Because for every one person who sticks it out... there are probably 10 who wont.
So, no this isnt racism. But it surely is an ism... It is elitism. And it surely does just asmuch to segregate people as any other ism. You want someone to leave? Make them feel like an idiot. Make them feel wrong. Make them feel guilty. Make them feel unworthy. And when they leave... when the problems that the eliteist few have struck at repeatedly with a hammer rather than a heart finally fester to the point of leaving. Tell them on the way out that they are welcome here. Just to add insult to injury. If you want to argue the pros and cons of one ism versus another we can, but isnt the point that is being made here that theres something wrong? Isnt it enough that there is an ism and that it's wrong? Or... is it just not quite wrong enough to address right now?
Ever met a rescue dog... saved from an abusive home... who is iether agressive to the point of visciousness or fearful to the point of loosing bowel control when they see some type of person? Yea... Well I wonder how many of those people who came here for help, and were ran out of town by the mob mentality of self righteousness will react the next time they meet someone who claims to be "good with dogs."
"Wonderful, I love people like you," I guarantee, wont be the first thing going through their brain.
The fact of the matter probably is that a very few people (percentage wise) are likely to make up the group being discussed here. But when 1% of the population accounts for 70% of the voice... They might as well be 70% of the population for the effect that they have.
But thats the rub, isnt it. That 1% of the people... The narrow minded, overly communicative, small heart, large temper, cruel, and unforgiving 1% are the people who get to have all the fun. Those are the people who can - at their whim - choose who does and doesnt have a good time here on chaz. Yep... Because for every one person who sticks it out... there are probably 10 who wont.
So, no this isnt racism. But it surely is an ism... It is elitism. And it surely does just asmuch to segregate people as any other ism. You want someone to leave? Make them feel like an idiot. Make them feel wrong. Make them feel guilty. Make them feel unworthy. And when they leave... when the problems that the eliteist few have struck at repeatedly with a hammer rather than a heart finally fester to the point of leaving. Tell them on the way out that they are welcome here. Just to add insult to injury. If you want to argue the pros and cons of one ism versus another we can, but isnt the point that is being made here that theres something wrong? Isnt it enough that there is an ism and that it's wrong? Or... is it just not quite wrong enough to address right now?
Ever met a rescue dog... saved from an abusive home... who is iether agressive to the point of visciousness or fearful to the point of loosing bowel control when they see some type of person? Yea... Well I wonder how many of those people who came here for help, and were ran out of town by the mob mentality of self righteousness will react the next time they meet someone who claims to be "good with dogs."
"Wonderful, I love people like you," I guarantee, wont be the first thing going through their brain.
DemitriousK
Nobody In Particular
You're right... The whole forum shouldnt be judged by the way that a few act. But it is. Every time someone comes through those proverbial doors the new person will judge this entire forum by the first few responses they recieve. Welcome to real life. First impressions are hard to shake
Renee750il
Felurian
Here's another rub, Demetrious 
. . . we can't "make" everyone conform to our ideas of how they should speak. We can require that certain boundaries not be crossed, but without severely restricting expression . . . and even then, everyone's perception is not alike. Everyone interprets from a slightly different perspective. To use your example of a dog who has been abused, a man approaches this dog and raises his hand to pet it, but the dog perceives - because he is a man and the dog was abused by a man - that he is raising his hand to strike, and it may take several minutes of petting for the dog to stop flinching from the man. But a dog sitting next to the fearful dog is whining and straining on the leash, trying to reach the man because it has only known kindness from a man and wants to be petted.
People are much the same. I may say something that one person understands is completely benign, but another person may read the very same words and interpret them in a completely different way and feel offended. So, even controlling what people say here - or anywhere - is a failing proposition, even not taking into account the fact that no one would have any desire to log on to a forum that totalitarian.
So, we muddle on and do our best to referee and hope that others will learn to be more compassionate, or to express themselves more effectively, or that, if they can't or won't, one of us will catch it when they cross the line and we can deal with them.
. . . we can't "make" everyone conform to our ideas of how they should speak. We can require that certain boundaries not be crossed, but without severely restricting expression . . . and even then, everyone's perception is not alike. Everyone interprets from a slightly different perspective. To use your example of a dog who has been abused, a man approaches this dog and raises his hand to pet it, but the dog perceives - because he is a man and the dog was abused by a man - that he is raising his hand to strike, and it may take several minutes of petting for the dog to stop flinching from the man. But a dog sitting next to the fearful dog is whining and straining on the leash, trying to reach the man because it has only known kindness from a man and wants to be petted.People are much the same. I may say something that one person understands is completely benign, but another person may read the very same words and interpret them in a completely different way and feel offended. So, even controlling what people say here - or anywhere - is a failing proposition, even not taking into account the fact that no one would have any desire to log on to a forum that totalitarian.
So, we muddle on and do our best to referee and hope that others will learn to be more compassionate, or to express themselves more effectively, or that, if they can't or won't, one of us will catch it when they cross the line and we can deal with them.
DemitriousK
Nobody In Particular
That certainly is the rock and the proverbial hard place, Renee. You cant censure, and you cant not. I truly do understand >sigh<.
That which follows is not aimed at anybody, mearly my point of view. A little bit of my thought process. Nobody is getting a "you dont" or "you do" look while I'm writing this out. It's mearly one more point to think on.
The one thing that we can, consistently, do is try and raise an awareness about the things that are going on. We can - in whatever small measure that each of us can manage - help eachother to think about who and what they are. If we can spark a few moments of true introspection in a few people every now and again then we can make a difference.
To do that... For truly clear introspection... We sometimes have to strip away the pleasantries, and bare to the world what we really see. This is something that I (obviously) have no problem doing. Am I right or wrong in my views? That, I've always thought, is less the point than the fact that people have to consider my observations against themselves to determine whether they agree -- or not. I dont, and nobody ever should, demand that people see things "my way." But to agree, or to disagree, you have to look at yourself. And looking at yourself is the goal.
The simple fact of the matter is that, while I could tell you that you ARE something it wont matter unless you believe me. Saying someone is a bigot doesnt make them a bigot. The words are irrelavant. But somewhere, deep down, there is a truth. Actions define that truth. But self awareness always shapes those actions.
Just as a therapist doesnt make a major breakthrough from weeks, months, or years, you dont help your neighbor understand his wrongs all at once. Its a process of self awareness and admitting to ones self that there is something there to be thought about. And someone unwilling to examine themselves in the same fashion has no business working on another persons problems. Oh no you dont have to have your problems worked out... but so long as you're willing to be honest and introspective there is no reason you cant share that same sense of ownership with other people.
Once you truly know yourself. And you like what you know. You will find that you are at peace with all of the world that matters to you.
I bet some of the things I've said raised some hairs on the back of some necks. But that means that those heads above those necks thought about what I've said. And more importantly they thought about how it applied to themselves. If those people feel that there is a chord that was struck... and that it's one that they don't quite like. Then perhaps all this harsh realism, and cold observation will someday do some good.
You start to erode the armor of ignorance one small doubt at a time. And if we all keep doing *this*. If we all keep looking at eachother, and looking at ourselves. Then theres still hope to win the battle against blanket ignorance.
Some days you fight with swords, other days you fight with pillows, and some days you fight with silence. But as long as we insist on being honest about ourselves, and being hoest with eachother... Then one day at a time we all become better people. And perhaps some day, We'll win that fight.
That which follows is not aimed at anybody, mearly my point of view. A little bit of my thought process. Nobody is getting a "you dont" or "you do" look while I'm writing this out. It's mearly one more point to think on.
The one thing that we can, consistently, do is try and raise an awareness about the things that are going on. We can - in whatever small measure that each of us can manage - help eachother to think about who and what they are. If we can spark a few moments of true introspection in a few people every now and again then we can make a difference.
To do that... For truly clear introspection... We sometimes have to strip away the pleasantries, and bare to the world what we really see. This is something that I (obviously) have no problem doing. Am I right or wrong in my views? That, I've always thought, is less the point than the fact that people have to consider my observations against themselves to determine whether they agree -- or not. I dont, and nobody ever should, demand that people see things "my way." But to agree, or to disagree, you have to look at yourself. And looking at yourself is the goal.
The simple fact of the matter is that, while I could tell you that you ARE something it wont matter unless you believe me. Saying someone is a bigot doesnt make them a bigot. The words are irrelavant. But somewhere, deep down, there is a truth. Actions define that truth. But self awareness always shapes those actions.
Just as a therapist doesnt make a major breakthrough from weeks, months, or years, you dont help your neighbor understand his wrongs all at once. Its a process of self awareness and admitting to ones self that there is something there to be thought about. And someone unwilling to examine themselves in the same fashion has no business working on another persons problems. Oh no you dont have to have your problems worked out... but so long as you're willing to be honest and introspective there is no reason you cant share that same sense of ownership with other people.
Once you truly know yourself. And you like what you know. You will find that you are at peace with all of the world that matters to you.
I bet some of the things I've said raised some hairs on the back of some necks. But that means that those heads above those necks thought about what I've said. And more importantly they thought about how it applied to themselves. If those people feel that there is a chord that was struck... and that it's one that they don't quite like. Then perhaps all this harsh realism, and cold observation will someday do some good.
You start to erode the armor of ignorance one small doubt at a time. And if we all keep doing *this*. If we all keep looking at eachother, and looking at ourselves. Then theres still hope to win the battle against blanket ignorance.
Some days you fight with swords, other days you fight with pillows, and some days you fight with silence. But as long as we insist on being honest about ourselves, and being hoest with eachother... Then one day at a time we all become better people. And perhaps some day, We'll win that fight.
DemitriousK
Nobody In Particular
Remember also that silence breeds complacency, and complacency is the hunting ground of ignorance.
And that hate is not the opposite of love. The opposite of love is indifference.
Therefor silence, and Indifference, are the worst thing that someone who cares about how people are treated around here can subscribe to. Looking the other way makes things worse not better, and there should be little need for a censure in a community that communicates amongst itself - especially when its members feel that the goals and ideals that shape the community are being disregarded.
And that hate is not the opposite of love. The opposite of love is indifference.
Therefor silence, and Indifference, are the worst thing that someone who cares about how people are treated around here can subscribe to. Looking the other way makes things worse not better, and there should be little need for a censure in a community that communicates amongst itself - especially when its members feel that the goals and ideals that shape the community are being disregarded.
Renee750il
Felurian
Very true . . . you won't find too many of the silent types here, lol! We have a very, er, 'vocal' bunch
One thing I am proud of is how so many of the Chazzers do jump in when someone is out of line. Even when the person out of line is very knowledgeable; there are so many members who aren't afraid to tell them that knowing doesn't give them the right to verbally abuse or taunt others. After all, what good is knowledge if you can't share it?
Renee750il
Felurian
This one is good, Grammy . . . lots of thought and no fisticuffs
mojozen
bullie lover
DemitriousK said:
I hope you do not mind... but I want to post this bit onto my livejournal. It is somethign I want to keep and that's where I post everything I ever intend on keeping.
I Don't agree with all of your points but I find myself agreeing with your line of reasoning behind your points... or something like that. Like Tessa I am not nearly as good as saying what I really want to say sometimes.
I am currently going through the process of trying to get my soon-to-be ex-neighbor to not see her female pit bull puppy as a breeding money maker... but as an intelligent creature with a lot of obedience and love to give. I've been using my own relationship with my dog as my example and offering "suggestions" and "tips" in an effort in getting her to treat her dog better.
In less than 3 weeks, there has been improvement in how she treats her dog. She's been working on minor training steps - sit, walk on leash, etc - as well as not leaving it outside chained up for hours on end. I can already tell that her dog is happier and the owner is happier with how her dog is behaving.
She's not a dog lover... she admitted she knew NOTHING about dogs. So by realizing that in order to help her dog I had to teach her owner I lost my anger of what her owner "SHOULD" have been doing.
(My therapist has told me that "should" is an anger inducing word... I am not to use it anymore. If i find myself using it I have to look for ways to resolve the problem that's angering me - in this case the treatment of my neighbor's dog - instead of just laying blame and being angry.)
Does this mean that she won't breed her puppy at a year? Who knows? But I decided that a far better fight was not to lecture her on what not to do... but to show her a better way to live with the dog she rescued from a really bad sitch (not being fed or sheltered at all - owner was a drug abuser).
Maybe by learning through my example and my presents to her dog (some old Kongs that Mojo barely touched, a book or two, and some conversation with me) she will realize on her own that breeding China (her dog's name) is not in her best interest. But the most I can hope for in my limited time remaining here (I'm moving) is that China's life will be better over all - she will get the food, attention and shelter she so needs in this life.
I'm starting to apply what I learned through this reallife experience to how I interact in other areas of my life - including Chaz. Keeping "YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS... " out of my vocabulary and changing it to "Have you thought about trying this instead...?"
As for DanL's original post - I take responsibility for Mojo first and foremost. He is not allowed off leash anywhere except in fenced in areas. I do not allow him to be in the care of anyone I haven't instructed in how to take care of him. I am even contemplating writing up a living will in case somehting happens to me that will insure his future care... because I feel that I am responsible for him even unto my death.
What other people do or not do is up to them ultimately, especially on this forum. What I do and how I view what responsibility means to me, is of more importance. If something were to happen to Mojo that was because of my negligence (and trust me he has gotten away from me and disappeared for short periods of time chasing game) I beat myself up about it for a good long while.
In the end I became more vigilant... I make sure that his collar is firmly on his neck. I make sure his leash is in good shape and isn't prone to breaking. I work on his recall. I walk the perimeter of all fenced in areas that I may leave him in for any period of time to make sure it's secure. When he goes out I watch him like a hawk - even when I know the fence is good or the leash is good.
Because that's what responsibility means to me... his life is in my hands. And his life is one of the most precious things I guard in my own life. And that's jsut the way it is ... for me.
DemitriousK
Nobody In Particular
Though I'm sure there are better sources for quoting than myself, I'll gladly agree to you saving whatever you like
Here are my 2 cents
When people come to a dog forum, they obviously care about their dog enough to visit and post questions.
With that being said, I can understand how easy it is to become irate when someone is negligent of their dog.
One poster on this thread used an example of saying, "Well, how about trying this..." when encountering a post that bothers, rather then telling the poster that they're ignorant. It is very easy to make someone feel stupid; you don't even have to come right out and say it.
I think that her suggestion is an excellent one to live by when it comes to replying to threads started by people who lack knowlege of pet care. Sometimes, what is common sense to one person may take another quite a while to figure out. And yes, I know it is very difficult to be patient.
In my opinion, the best thing to do is just to present the knowlege to the person with out making a personal judgment call on their character.
Some people come on this forum really needing to answers to questions- if they get the feeling they're going to be flamed, they may not post, and people may get turned off or scared away.
The last breed specific forum I was a part of (which I miss GREATLY by the way) was closed down for many reasons, but the biggest was because a rift in the members that is EXACTLY like this one.
I must say that in the past I have been on the "band wagon" for getting righteously angry at people who make bad judgment calls on their pets.
However, I learned the hard way that you have to let people make their own deciesions, and when someone posts about an event that happened in the past, a good thing to keep in mind is what's done is done.
No one can go back and undo past mistakes, no matter how bad you wish you could.
I think the goal of any forum would be that people who come are more enriched then before.
I think this particular forum has far more to offer then most, although I must say that KeesTalk was a bit better just because it was breed specific.
Also, a note to those who DO get their feelings hurt: Try to keep an open mind with what people are saying. The reason people post here is because their pets are beloved to them, and because they have great knowlege to share.
When people come to a dog forum, they obviously care about their dog enough to visit and post questions.
With that being said, I can understand how easy it is to become irate when someone is negligent of their dog.
One poster on this thread used an example of saying, "Well, how about trying this..." when encountering a post that bothers, rather then telling the poster that they're ignorant. It is very easy to make someone feel stupid; you don't even have to come right out and say it.
I think that her suggestion is an excellent one to live by when it comes to replying to threads started by people who lack knowlege of pet care. Sometimes, what is common sense to one person may take another quite a while to figure out. And yes, I know it is very difficult to be patient.
In my opinion, the best thing to do is just to present the knowlege to the person with out making a personal judgment call on their character.
Some people come on this forum really needing to answers to questions- if they get the feeling they're going to be flamed, they may not post, and people may get turned off or scared away.
The last breed specific forum I was a part of (which I miss GREATLY by the way) was closed down for many reasons, but the biggest was because a rift in the members that is EXACTLY like this one.
I must say that in the past I have been on the "band wagon" for getting righteously angry at people who make bad judgment calls on their pets.
However, I learned the hard way that you have to let people make their own deciesions, and when someone posts about an event that happened in the past, a good thing to keep in mind is what's done is done.
No one can go back and undo past mistakes, no matter how bad you wish you could.
I think the goal of any forum would be that people who come are more enriched then before.
I think this particular forum has far more to offer then most, although I must say that KeesTalk was a bit better just because it was breed specific.
Also, a note to those who DO get their feelings hurt: Try to keep an open mind with what people are saying. The reason people post here is because their pets are beloved to them, and because they have great knowlege to share.
sparks19
I'd rather be at Disney
Good point Camzkees.
What is ordinary to some may be extraordinary to others.
That was our motto at my old job where I did Technical support.
just because you know it doesn't mean it is common knowledge.
If you go into a discussion with an open mind what is the worst that will happen? You might learn something?
What is ordinary to some may be extraordinary to others.
That was our motto at my old job where I did Technical support.
just because you know it doesn't mean it is common knowledge.
If you go into a discussion with an open mind what is the worst that will happen? You might learn something?
I agree that some responses to the controversial threads do get out of hand.GSDlover_4ever said:
Not just oops litters but the doodles and mix threads or the threads on training or the threads on drugs, politics, and faith. Some people feel the need to MAKE others see it THIER way. While many have good points to a new person on chaz who didnt know what they were getting into could very easily be put off by the comments.
I see that many of us including myself forget that we are suppose to love one another as we want them to love us...Or respect whatever word you prefer. If you treat someone badly expect to be treated badly in return. What I am trying to say is our focus is sometimes not on track. Dogs are dogs, pets are pets, We are humans and should treat our fellow humans with as much love and respect as we do our pets. I am too guilty of this.
We should put more thought into what we type before we type it. WE are responsible for our words whether they hurt others or they encourage.
Renee750il
Felurian
Reading CamKees' post brought something to my mind:
One of the reasons that these sorts of threads, and Chazhound in general, functions as well as it does and keeps on growing is that we do talk to each other - post about, if you will - things other than our dogs. Many of us have really gotten to know a great deal about each other. Friendships have formed, even close friendships. We have built a bond that is very much like the bond found in families. Sometimes we squabble, every now and then there's some pettiness, some meanness, even downright rudeness amongst ourselves, but when push comes to shove and someone has a crisis, we come here and share our hurts with each other and even those who have been recent combatants are there with comfort.
Now, if we can remember that so many of the newcomers who sign on and post with questions or needing help aren't "outsiders," just "family" members we didn't know we had until that moment. And if they need help, let's help them. We can squabble later after they've gotten to know us
One of the reasons that these sorts of threads, and Chazhound in general, functions as well as it does and keeps on growing is that we do talk to each other - post about, if you will - things other than our dogs. Many of us have really gotten to know a great deal about each other. Friendships have formed, even close friendships. We have built a bond that is very much like the bond found in families. Sometimes we squabble, every now and then there's some pettiness, some meanness, even downright rudeness amongst ourselves, but when push comes to shove and someone has a crisis, we come here and share our hurts with each other and even those who have been recent combatants are there with comfort.
Now, if we can remember that so many of the newcomers who sign on and post with questions or needing help aren't "outsiders," just "family" members we didn't know we had until that moment. And if they need help, let's help them. We can squabble later after they've gotten to know us
Renee750il said:Reading CamKees' post brought something to my mind:
One of the reasons that these sorts of threads, and Chazhound in general, functions as well as it does and keeps on growing is that we do talk to each other - post about, if you will - things other than our dogs. Many of us have really gotten to know a great deal about each other. Friendships have formed, even close friendships. We have built a bond that is very much like the bond found in families. Sometimes we squabble, every now and then there's some pettiness, some meanness, even downright rudeness amongst ourselves, but when push comes to shove and someone has a crisis, we come here and share our hurts with each other and even those who have been recent combatants are there with comfort.
Now, if we can remember that so many of the newcomers who sign on and post with questions or needing help aren't "outsiders," just "family" members we didn't know we had until that moment. And if they need help, let's help them. We can squabble later after they've gotten to know us
You are so right Renee!
Ok Group Hug
i hvent even red all this thread because it will just be a load of stuff thts too confusing!
by reading the last page i see the topic has competely changed from the title lol!
but some people get really stressy when other people dont see things there way! and just cant face tht people will always have different opinions!
i have to completely agree!, i love this forum! and all the people on it!
just because everyone is so nice and all the mean peeps are banned or i just use the good old ignore button!!!
by reading the last page i see the topic has competely changed from the title lol!
but some people get really stressy when other people dont see things there way! and just cant face tht people will always have different opinions!
i have to completely agree!, i love this forum! and all the people on it!
just because everyone is so nice and all the mean peeps are banned or i just use the good old ignore button!!!
Whisper
Kaleidoscopic Eye
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Renee750il said:Reading CamKees' post brought something to my mind:
One of the reasons that these sorts of threads, and Chazhound in general, functions as well as it does and keeps on growing is that we do talk to each other - post about, if you will - things other than our dogs. Many of us have really gotten to know a great deal about each other. Friendships have formed, even close friendships. We have built a bond that is very much like the bond found in families. Sometimes we squabble, every now and then there's some pettiness, some meanness, even downright rudeness amongst ourselves, but when push comes to shove and someone has a crisis, we come here and share our hurts with each other and even those who have been recent combatants are there with comfort.
Now, if we can remember that so many of the newcomers who sign on and post with questions or needing help aren't "outsiders," just "family" members we didn't know we had until that moment. And if they need help, let's help them. We can squabble later after they've gotten to know us
That is a great thing to say. I have to agree 100%. I love Chazhound's environment. It's my favorite forum (and I'm on a lot) and one of those reasons is because people are honest, loving, and caring. Not everyone follows respectful guidelines, but the good definitely outweighs the bad. I haven't been here too long, but i've learned a lot here and I'm so glad that people can be so kind, and a lot of people are.