Let's Talk About Owner Responsibility

[ihartgonzo]

You make a really great point, DanL! I also hate double-standards, so so much. I completely have sympathy for animals involved in getting out and being injured or hurting others, not as much for the owners that allowed it to happen.

I totally realize that accidents do happen, and no one is perfect. However, I'm 17, I am not a hyper-vigilant kind of person, but none of my dogs have e v e r gotten out past the front yard unleashed. The first thing I taught both of my dogs is to never pass through doorways before waiting for me to call them through, so they wait at the door, no matter what. It is not difficult to keep an eye on the dog, and most of the time dogs get out because they're left in an unsecure yard alone. When it's a freak accident, like a dog getting through a window and escaping the house, or a dog running away while being watched by some one else, I definitely feel a lot of sympathy. But when it's something entirely preventable (like having no fence, walking the dog off-leash...) my only sympathy is for the poor dog whose life was in danger for no reason.

That said, none of this is related to the locked thread! =P

I also think it's horribly hypocritical to sympathize for people who pretty much allow their dogs to roam unsupervised, IF the dog gets hurt. The dog is bound to get hurt, if it's spending much time without supervision roaming around a neighborhood. However, as far as jumping some one whose roaming dog gets impregnated, I fully agree with that! If there is any chance your dog will leave your sight and they are not show quality, the dog has no business being unaltered.

 

[M&M's Mommy]

Yes, while I agree that every owner is 100% responsible for his/her dog, I have to say that unfortunate thing does happened, and in many cases it's good to get to the bottom of thing to find out exactly what's happened. If it's an accident, it's one thing, but if it's a result of a foul play, it's another thing. In the later case, the responsibility falls on the one who's done the damage. Of course the owner will feel guilty because ultimately it's his/her responsibility, but that doesn't take the responsibility off the real offender. For example, if your dog is let loose and charges after someone and bite him, it's your responsibility, but if that person purposely provokes your dog, he becomes responsible for getting himself bitten. Sometimes, things are not as clear as black and white, and the owner should not always be blamed for everything, in the same way, you do not blame the rape victim for not being careful, even though her safety is 100% her responsibility.

Each case is different, and should be evaluated as such.

 

[elegy]

Yes, while I agree that every owner is 100% responsible for his/her dog, I have to say that unfortunate thing does happened, and in many cases it's good to get to the bottom of thing to find out exactly what's happened. If it's an accident, it's one thing, but if it's a result of a foul play, it's another thing. In the later case, the responsibility falls on the one who's done the damage. Of course the owner will feel guilty because ultimately it's his/her responsibility, but that doesn't take the responsibility off the real offender. For example, if your dog is let loose and charges after someone and bite him, it's your responsibility, but if that person purposely provokes your dog, he becomes responsible for getting himself bitten. Sometimes, things are not as clear as black and white, and the owner should not always be blamed for everything, in the same way, you do not blame the rape victim for not being careful, even though her safety is 100% her responsibility.

but who is responsible for having put that dog in the situation to begin with? the owner. my dogs will never be given the opportunity to be provoked by somebody because they will never be in a situation where they are left unattended in a place where they can be provoked.

and i'm not EVEN touching the rape victim bit. that is a straw man and totally inapplicable to any situation involving dogs.

 

[tessa_s212]

Anyone ever stop and think that most of the time assigning blame is a pointless and fruitless exercise? You do your best, try not to make mistakes, learn from the ones you do make, and remember that sometimes an accident is just an accident.

The times that it is important to find out who is responsible are when incidents take place that can be rectified or that might be a pattern of behaviour and need to be stopped.

At the end of the day - or thread - aren't we all on the same side . . . our dogs'?

THANKYOU!!

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Great post DanL I am the owner of a naturally suspicious breed when it comes to strangers and I am always on my guard with my dog when we are out in public. I walk in an area where there can be lots of foot traffic at times and people are very intrigued by the looks of my ACD but I always tell them that he is not a dog that you can hang on, pat, and stick your face in. So if I stop to talk to people I keep Cai at a safe distance. My dog doesn't bark and growl at people because he is very well behaved and socialized but I would rather be safe then sorry so I keep my distance and only let him approach people he knows well. I am very responsible with my dog and I want to keep him safe from stupid people. Just tonight at the pond I walk I had a little girl around maybe 7 years started to approach him and she said "hi" to me first. So then I said "hi honey, please don't run up to my doggy okay" and she said "okay" and her dad thanked me for telling her that. People need to teach there children not to run up to strange dogs because that is how accidents happen. ACD's are not one of those happy go lucky love everybody wiggle butt breeds and just as my dog would protect me I'm going to keep him protected
On a side note: I have never been on a forum where so many threads get locked and I find it ridiculous Just as DanL said we are all here because of our love of dogs and we want to help others not bash them or hurt them by making rude remarks.

 

[Fran27]

I agree with DanL, but I also think that in some circumstances, an accident is an accident. As much as I admire those people who never let their dogs unattended in their 6 foot-fenced backyard, I think there are times when the dogs are 'safe enough' and there is no need to be totally paranoid about it Sure, accidents can still happen, but it's often unlikely...

But then there is a difference between accidents and negligence... Like someone on another forum who lost a second dog after the first one escaped and never even looked at the fence before letting the second dog out to make sure the second dog wouldn't be able to escape as well

 

[DanL]

There are some great replies here everyone. Thanks! And I agree- we are ALL on our dogs side and that is the bottom line!

 

[rhinecat]

Sometimes, things are not as clear as black and white, and the owner should not always be blamed for everything, in the same way, you do not blame the rape victim for not being careful, even though her safety is 100% her responsibility.

This is truly a disgusting comparison, given that people are CONSTANTLY blamed when they are raped. CHILDREN are told that they were "being seductive" around adults who molested them, and are therefore at fault.

Not only is it disgusting, it's plain inaccurate--the dog would be the victim, not the owner. As much as it may hurt to realize that you're at fault when your dogs get hurt, it's the DOGS that suffer.

 

[smkie]

I have a neighbor that lets his dog run everynight. It makes me nuts for i have seen the dog crossing the busy road at the end of my street too many times. Once when he was almost hit, almost caused an accident, i went up and told the man what had happened. He said he wa spending 4 thousand dollars on the driveway they were working on and wouldn't stop now. I shook my head, wonder if the dog had caused an accident and someone was hurt besides the dog if he would have had the same reply. All i know for certain is if i didn't know where my dogs were i would be in a panic. To lose either one of them would do me in, especially if it were an act of carelessness on my part. I am the guardian, and i take that seriously. If Vic had been out in the road like that i would have been in a panic. I do not like my neighbor at all and have 0 respect for him.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

This thread is rather upsetting to me and I hope that the OP about her dogs nails will not be offended. Accidents happen, sure it was the owners "fault" however, I don't think that's for a bunch of people on a forum to judge. People come here for advice, and support. I was really shocked to see people hammering her.

Yes, accidents do happen. But why is a situation like your dog escaping any different that an "oops" litter. Both are irresponsible but yet one seems to get more negative attention (we all know what I'm talking about). You guys have NO problem telling someone how terrible they are when it is a breeding issue, but any other time, it is acceptable to be irresponsible. SOmeone please enlighten.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I agree with you DanL...Although there are some times grey areas nothing is completely black and white.
Sometimes things happen even IF we take precautions. Cannot be perfect all the time

Yes, no one is perfect, but why cant those who have "oops" litters catch a break from all the "your so irresponsible" crap once in a while.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Yes, no one is perfect, but why cant those who have "oops" litters catch a break from all the "your so irresponsible" crap once in a while.

1) Any dog, with any chance of escaping or roaming, should be spayed/neutered. I expect anyone with an unaltered dog to be even more hyper-vigilant about their dogs getting out, because the dogs are not only in danger while they're roaming, they could potentially be adding to the overpopulation.

2) IMO, if your bitch is in heat, you should *know* when she is in heat and you should not let her out of your sight period.

I do understand this kind of a "double standard" because, not only has the owner been loose about watching the dog, they also haven't taken care to speuter long before-hand so this kind of situation does not arise.

 

[moxiegrl]

Im surprised stickner hasnt commented...

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Geez, when I'm not online much I miss out on all the fun! *L*

Okay, my take on this .. as an owner of five dogs, one intact female, it's 100% my responsibility if any of them get out, get hurt, get pregnant, etc. I would not expect any sympathy from anyone in this forum if something happened to one of my dogs because they were off somewhere they shouldn't have been - I would fully admit to my responsibility (or lack thereof).

Yes, accidents happen and dogs do manage to get loose once in awhile. I don't feel that a person is nearly as much to blame (although the responsibility remains theirs) if a dog escapes in an unexpected way. But if a dog is turned out to go potty or play with no confinement other than a person expecting the dog will stick around, and that dog goes onto a neighbor's property or gets in the road, etc. then it is negligence as far as I'm concerned.

Most people who post on this forum for any length of time surely read posts about how we should keep our dogs confined. They read about what happens, they read about "oops" litters, they read about dogs getting lost. If they choose to let their dogs loose without supervision then why should there be sympathy?

I do take my dogs out off-leash where I live, but I'm lucky in that I live out in the boonies. However, they are never outside of the house or fenced area unless I'm with them. Is there still a risk? Of course. But we can do much to avoid problems if we are diligent and responsible. I work hard to teach my dogs proper behaviors, and that includes a good recall and basic response to me.

So lets all take responsbility for our dogs, stop allowing them outside free when we're not paying attention, strictly confine a female in heat (or get her spayed), and realize we are at fault when our lack of attention or judgement results in something happening to one of our dogs.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... who has heard most of the excuses already, when working for the vet .. the most stupid one had to be when a dog came in that had been hit by a car .. the owner swore that the dog never left the front porch .. I'd be plenty mad if someone drove onto my front porch to hit my dog ..

 

[DemitriousK]

Ahh the human condition... I can see, now, why calling a dog "almost human" would have to be an insult: because of all the evil things a human can do the act of blaming is probably the worst.

I wonder, sometimes, what responsibility is - really is - and how one can acheive that state of blissful nirvana that is blamelessness. Is being "responsible" a synonym for being "perfect?"

It is unfortunate that tragedy falls into the cracks of statistical reality.

You see there is a certain percentage of the time when, for example, a dog being in the road gets it hit. And there is a certain percentage chance when the dog finds the hole in the fence before you do. Finally a certain percentage that, for some reason the dog will exit the yard through the hole in the fence and cross the street. When, and statistically its bound to happen at some regular(ish) interval, all of those probabilities line up you have a horrible accident.

Its easy to assign that mythical word "responsibility" here... simply attach it to the owner. So in this case "responsible" is "omnescent". Obviously I'm not a responsible parent by these standards.

Or, perhaps every day you leash your dog before opening the car door. It's only 14 feet from the car to the house, but still no use taking chances. But today you're tired, stressed, and distrtacted. Today you forget. The dog sees a cat, which he chases. The cat runs into a neighbors house, tailed by the dog. The dog, in a fervor (and being beaten with a newspaper or seomthing by your frantic neighbor trying to "save" the cat from your curious dog) bites your neighbor.

Its easy, again, to assign "responsibility" to the owner. So in this case "responsible" is "infallable". I'm, again, unworthy of this title: "a responsible parent"

Ahh, maybe you're walking your dog on leash, and a sudden lunge breaks your grip... so here "responsible" is "omnipotent." And still I fall short...

It's a pity that humans are, in truth, frail weak and fallible creatures. We take care of our brethren the dog as best we can. But unlike a human (as this thread shows) The dog is often times wiser than the human. Because my dog, even if something terrible happened to him on accident, would forgive me that I made a mistake. My dog would even, were it possible, do his best to console me and make me feel forgiven for my mistake. Unlike you my dog would feel that the guilt I already feel is MORE than enough, and that it was necessary, for carrying on, to feel love again. To feel worthy.

But that human staining agent - that loathsome act of assigning blame... and that accompanying act of accepting the burden of shame and guilt from SOMEONE ELSE... Those evils my dog are not capable of... It takes a human to be so vile...

My dog would never wish me to visit the stocks, and br chained as the townsfolk hurled insult after vicious insult at me. My dog, you see, understands the concepts preached here so often: positive reinforcement always works better than negative reinforcement. Then again my dog wouldnt know why I was being repeatedly trounced... you see my dog doesnt hold grudges...

How about we all strive to be more like our dogs today. Lets not "expect" something of someone, and then "blame" them when THEY dont meet YOUR expectations. Lets forgive a mistake, even truly terrible ones (as they do happen) lets ACCEPT people for who they truly are. I know... Its a pipe dream... But think of how wonderful the world... or even these forums... would be if more people had the kind of noble values that tends to chase a ball on all fours...

No... It's too much fun, isn't it, to watch each other squirm on hooks like worms waiting for fish... Where else would we get our feeling of superiority?! Where else can we look around us in smug ignorance and lie (first to ourselves and then the world) about how *I* would never let *THAT* happen... What you really *MEAN* when you get to the point of the matter is "I'm better than you, and now you know it," which goes way beyond the idea of the pack needing a leader to self righteous narcissism (not to mention downright sadism: "you should be feeling guilty because you arent as perfect as I am.") And why SHOULDNT we let each and every member line up and take posthots at the one who's currently down?! Would you like to be the keeper of the blindfolds and cigarettes (befitting an execution by firing squad)? After all... they earned it... they just proved themselves to be "only human"

So has "almost human" ever applied to a dog? I truly doubt it... I never met a dog so rotten, or a human so noble.

 

[Caren+Bailey]

Interesting thread!

*I* and *Hubby* are Responisble for Bailey (whichever of the two of us is home/walking him ETC).
No-one else!!

If (and it's a big if b/c of where i live) Bailey got out and hit by a car *We* (or whichever are home) are responsible.

If he attacked someone outside (Highly unlikely as he is never off-leash in public areas) then *We* are responsible.

If someone attacked him.........tough one *we* are responsible for him getting into a situation where this could happen........however we are not responsible for the actions of the Attacker!!

A few weeks ago Bailey slipped his collar while i was walking him and i literally pulled him from beneath a moving car just before the back wheels slammed into his head.
Now.......responsiblilty........it could not lay with me.....Bailey was on leash and something spooked him, he was so spooked that he managed to work himself free........it all happened so fast!

If he had of been hit how would i have felt??
Well i would have felt guilty as hell b/c he was in my care........however i wouldn't expect a single person here or anyone else to throw mud and blame me b/c he got hit..........I would have *Known* already that somehow this *ACCIDENT* would hold me to blame and i would be torturing myself enough without others adding to my pain.

I don't know what Origanal thread started this topic and i don't wish to know.........but if whatever happened to the OP's dog of that other thread was considered *Their* fault........then i think they would be suffering enough and doing what they can to make sure that a similar situation wouldn't happen again..........without being bashed for it.

 

[elegy]

Ahh, maybe you're walking your dog on leash, and a sudden lunge breaks your grip... so here "responsible" is "omnipotent." And still I fall short...

no, responsible is, well, responsible. stuff happens. we all know that. but we are still responsible for cleaning up our dogs' messes, we're still responsible for what they do all the time.

a responsible owner is not somehow magical. they're just there, solid and without excuse, no matter what their dog does, whether it's an accident or not.

 

[DemitriousK]

The point isnt that total responsibility is unattainable... thats obvious to anyone who bothers to think about it. The point is how absurd it is to come here to share with like-minded people and face the firing squad when the person already feels guilty, and wretched... And the negative reinforcement we all complain about when people use it on their dogs, but then turn around and use on eachother with impunity.

 

[Renee750il]

Demetrious, you really should post more often

 

[tessa_s212]

The point isnt that total responsibility is unattainable... thats obvious to anyone who bothers to think about it. The point is how absurd it is to come here to share with like-minded people and face the firing squad when the person already feels guilty, and wretched... And the negative reinforcement we all complain about when people use it on their dogs, but then turn around and use on eachother with impunity.

Have I told you how much I love you!?

You've just said EVERYTHING I've ever wanted to say in these types of threads, but could never get it out of my mouth and onto the screen making sense. Thankyou.

BTW, you must be a genius. Have to be. Can I borrow some for just a few days?