Lethal Dog Surgeries

Dog-Training-Outlet

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#1
The controversial practice of using live dogs for practice student surgeries and then euthanizing the canines will end beginning this fall at Michigan State University.

Animal rights groups hailed MSU's decision to join most of the nation's 28 vet schools that have stopped so-called terminal surgery. Mitch Goldsmith, an MSU junior and animal rights activist, said the practice is "needless cruelty."

Live dogs -- bought from breeders -- are anesthetized during surgery and when they are euthanized, officials said.

Bryden Stanley, professor of animal surgery, said using live dogs was "something that nobody really likes to do," but was necessary because "our primary responsibility is to train competent surgeons."

Instruction with cadavers and surgical models now offers an acceptable alternative, she said.

Veterinary training in terminal surgery, which concludes with euthanasia, has been the target of animal rights groups, and of objections from some vet students at MSU and elsewhere. The group Animalearn praised MSU's decision Thursday. Most of the nation's 28 veterinary schools no longer require terminal surgery as part of their curriculum.

The animals used in training at MSU were anesthetized before surgery and painlessly euthanized afterward, Stanley said.

Vet school spokeswoman Linda Chadderdon said the university used only "purpose bred" animals for surgical training, not dogs from pounds or former pets. Chadderdon said about 140 dogs died in the program last year.

Training with live animals that does not require euthanasia, most commonly spaying and neutering, will increase at MSU, she said.

Terminal surgery was dropped at Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine more than three years ago, spokeswoman Melissa Weber said, largely because veterinary students have become increasingly uncomfortable with it. OSU is developing a computer simulation program which Weber said will mimic surgery on living animals.

Did you know this was occurring???
 

sillysally

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#4
From what I understand one of the reasons they bought dogs from breeders for that purpose rather than going through shelters was because animals rights people freaked out about the schools using shelter dogs. Maybe this makes me a barbarian or something, but why NOT use dogs that were going to be euthed at shelters anyway for these procedures? I'm sure it's more educational to learn of living animals and if the dogs were slated to die anyway, why not have their deaths go towards helping the species in general?
 

StillandSilent

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#5
I know people at my college were up in arms when we dissected (nonliving) cats for vertebrate biology. The cats had been euthanized at shelters and then sold to be used for that purpose.
I had no problem with that, but breeding dogs specifically so they can be killed seems a bit much for me, considering that millions of shelter dogs die each year anyway, and some good can come from their deaths.
 

Xandra

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#6
To me breeding dogs for terminal surgery is way worse than using pound dogs.

Ditto SillySally.

It sounds to me like the dog never wakes up from the anesthetic.

Why not?

I'd rather have a vet trained on animals instead of computers.
 

Xandra

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#7
I know people at my college were up in arms when we dissected (nonliving) cats for vertebrate biology. The cats had been euthanized at shelters and then sold to be used for that purpose.
I had no problem with that, but breeding dogs specifically so they can be killed seems a bit much for me, considering that millions of shelter dogs die each year anyway, and some good can come from their deaths.
Exactly.

If a person can't handle the fact that animals die, and/or they are so illogical or emotional that they can't handle using bodies which would otherwise be wasted, I question them becoming vets anyways.
 

Saeleofu

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#8
From what I understand one of the reasons they bought dogs from breeders for that purpose rather than going through shelters was because animals rights people freaked out about the schools using shelter dogs. Maybe this makes me a barbarian or something, but why NOT use dogs that were going to be euthed at shelters anyway for these procedures? I'm sure it's more educational to learn of living animals and if the dogs were slated to die anyway, why not have their deaths go towards helping the species in general?
:hail:
 

bubbatd

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#9
I'm torn , but I thought that they only used dogs who would be PTS anyway .
 

Zoom

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#10
Source? Where are you getting this info?

And I agree with them using dogs that were on the euth list at a shelter instead of breeding solely for this purpose. :(
 

xpaeanx

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#11
From what I understand one of the reasons they bought dogs from breeders for that purpose rather than going through shelters was because animals rights people freaked out about the schools using shelter dogs. Maybe this makes me a barbarian or something, but why NOT use dogs that were going to be euthed at shelters anyway for these procedures? I'm sure it's more educational to learn of living animals and if the dogs were slated to die anyway, why not have their deaths go towards helping the species in general?
this.
 

Tazwell

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#12
I live only a half hour away from MSU-- and I knew 3 people who went there and dropped out due to this issue. I didn't know that they bred the dogs for euthanasia! One of my high school teachers went there while they still used shelter dogs-- and one of her most prominent memories was when they opened up one of the dogs and found puppies that they didn't know were there. The lesson was dropped and they were all euthanized.
 

elegy

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#13
i can appreciate that using shelter dogs for this purpose could be a media nightmare.

in all honesty, while it makes me very sad, i'd rather they learned on dogs that aren't peoples' pets. would you really want your vet's first spay of an actual living dog to be your dog? i wouldn't.
 

Lolas Dad

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From what I understand one of the reasons they bought dogs from breeders for that purpose rather than going through shelters was because animals rights people freaked out about the schools using shelter dogs. Maybe this makes me a barbarian or something, but why NOT use dogs that were going to be euthed at shelters anyway for these procedures? I'm sure it's more educational to learn of living animals and if the dogs were slated to die anyway, why not have their deaths go towards helping the species in general?
We do not do that on living humans so why should we do that on living animals.

i can appreciate that using shelter dogs for this purpose could be a media nightmare.

in all honesty, while it makes me very sad, i'd rather they learned on dogs that aren't peoples' pets. would you really want your vet's first spay of an actual living dog to be your dog? i wouldn't.
A more common procedure would be for the student who is going to be a vet do the procedure along side a licensed vet. When a surgeon performs a hysterectomy on a woman for the first time it is performed with a licensed surgeon right along side of them. Doctors have to do internships and if a vet is not required to do an internship then they should be required to just as a doctor has to do an internship before he or she can be licensed.
 

Grab

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#15
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe that they are doing surgeries like spays and neuters and then euthanizing the dogs. I think it is a matter of more advanced surgeries involving vital organs.

It is unfortunate, but I don't believe that intricate surgeries involving organs are something one can learn by observation. For one, in sterile surgeries, most everything is covered by a drape..another person really cannot hover over a surgery site (if you want it to be sterile) and surgery incisions are not huge and gaping..you just can't see in there. The hands doing the surgery are pretty much taking up all of the room. In additon, does anyone really want their pet having a life saving operation (not a spay/neuter) done by someone who has never had hands on surgery experience? Or having a surgery take 5 times as long because someone has to ask someone else for assistance before clamping everything off? I'm sure some surgeries can be done on deceased animals, but for others, one really does need a living animal, unfortunately.

I'm not certain which would be better..shelter dogs or breeder ones. I would imagine that the "breeder" is one producing dogs for laboratory use, not one who is selling family pets. Not that it makes it any better, but it's a matter of what the dog's future was going to be regardless.
 

smkie

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#16
I personally don't see what difference it makes if it were someone' pet or not. THe fact that it was loved (or not) doesn't change a thing in the fact that it is a life that is lost. I would much rather it be a dog that is going to be euthed anyway instead of breeding for this purpose. ANyway I am glad it's over. DOes anyone have Grey's anatomy running through their head?
 

sillysally

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#17
We do not do that on living humans so why should we do that on living animals.
We don't eat humans either. We don't go out in the woods and hunt humans. Nor do we selectively breed them for purposes such as playing football or beauty contests. We don't cage our children when we leave. I am a big proponent for animal welfare, but animals, while they deserve respect as living things, are NOT human. As a matter of fact, if you "kept" an adult human like you keep a a dog (assuming you just don't open the door in the morning and let your dog run loose through the neighborhood and do whatever she wants until the evening) it would be a crime, so think carefully, is the "we wouldn't do it to humans" argument REALLY a road you want to go down?

Shelter dogs are going to die. As long as we have people who do not do their research before getting a dog, have allergy problems, get dogs with issues they can't handle, fall on hard times, or let their unspayed female mate with everything with a pulse there are going to be dogs that end up in the shelters and not all are going to be adopted or even adoptable. So if the dogs are going to die ANYWAY, what exactly is the harm in putting them under for a surgery (they are not being tortured) and teaching the surgery, then putting them down humanly (which would have happened anyway remember) before they wake up?
 

darkchild16

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#18
We don't eat humans either. We don't go out in the woods and hunt humans. Nor do we selectively breed them for purposes such as playing football or beauty contests. We don't cage our children when we leave. I am a big proponent for animal welfare, but animals, while they deserve respect as living things, are NOT human. As a matter of fact, if you "kept" an adult human like you keep a a dog (assuming you just don't open the door in the morning and let your dog run loose through the neighborhood and do whatever she wants until the evening) it would be a crime, so think carefully, is the "we wouldn't do it to humans" argument REALLY a road you want to go down?

Shelter dogs are going to die. As long as we have people who do not do their research before getting a dog, have allergy problems, get dogs with issues they can't handle, fall on hard times, or let their unspayed female mate with everything with a pulse there are going to be dogs that end up in the shelters and not all are going to be adopted or even adoptable. So if the dogs are going to die ANYWAY, what exactly is the harm in putting them under for a surgery (they are not being tortured) and teaching the surgery, then putting them down humanly (which would have happened anyway remember) before they wake up?
:hail::hail:

I personally dont like the idea of a vet never trying a surgery before on a living dog and doing it on my dog. We have dogs euth'd DAILY for temperment issues, WHAT if all these dogs go to a college to be part of their study. I personally dont think I would be comfortable preforming a major surgery on someones pet that i have NEVER practiced before.
 

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