Innova, Canidae - a topic carried over from the Orijen thread

[sam]

The subject came up about the difference in price between Canidae and Innova. It was brought up as a major drawback about Innova - that their prices are out of line. My take on it was a bit different.
From what I can gather Canidae is certainly cheaper for some comparable products including Innova and others. I mentioned that that has made me wonder because generally you don't get something for nothing, you get what you pay for.
I remembered this being talked about before but couldn't remember the details so I asked Mordy ( who for most people here needs no introduction) of www.betterdogcare.com and www.dogfoodproject.com

I asked how it is that Canidae is able to price their products lower than most comparably proced foods including Innova. I thought there might be some people other than me interested in the answer :

They don't have their own manufacturing facility, don't do any feeding trials etc., so they don't have the same overhead costs compared to other companies.

Natura for example makes all their dry food at their own plant, which contains state of the art equipment and is APHIS registered, AIB Certified Superior, Organic Certified and ISO 9001:2000 certified, they run their own research facility to do feeding trials and so on - a commitment to their products that should not be ignored.

I've seen Canidae for as little as $27 plus tax for a 40 lb bag here in the US, so yes it is fairly inexpensive, compared to some of the other high-end brands.

_________________________
I don't happen to feed either product and this is not intended as a slight against Canidae which is obviously a very good food; just pointing out that there is good, justifiable (at least in my mind) reason for the price difference.
I'm glad there is a more affordable option out therebut I also see merit to what Naturapet does.

 

[jess2416]

I just went and bought Chloe a new bag of EVO and for the 13.2 bag it was 24 dollars and TWO is $30 for a 16.6 bag and orijen is $28 for a 15.4 bag (not including shipping)...(I have been looking at foods alot lately ) So IMO Natura is NOT outrageous on their prices at all...

 

[RD]

I can't get Canidae here, but when I tried it in Idaho the dogs wouldn't eat it. =/ I love the price but I guess the dogs have to eat it in order to make it worth the money.

 

[dk666]

Innova is not overpriced compared to other foods It's just that Canidae is a great value for a quality product. I use Canidae due to the price if I or I should say Thor made the call It would be Timberwolf Wild & Natural he goes crazy when I put that out he can tell all the meat in it but at twice the price and he's doing just fine on Canidae I can't see paying more to feed him then I pay to feed myself for the most part as I'm chowing down on my generic ramin noodles here LOL

 

[Toller_08]

Innova is overpriced in some places. The cheapest I can find EVO for is $65 for a 30lb bag - to me, that's absolutely insane, but I'm sure there is a reason for it. Canidae can be pretty outrageous here too, depending on the store. The cheapest I've seen the 40lb bag was $55. It could just be my location, as I've never checked the prices anywhere else. In fact, I can't get any premium foods for less than $50 (which is what I pay for Orijen and California Natural).

 

[Melissa_W]

Innova isn't overpriced here. It's roughly the same price as most of the other premium foods like TWO, Nature's Variety, Solid Gold, etc. Canidae just has a lower price than most.

 

[SummerRiot]

I had bought the largest bag of Innova EVO RM for Riot not too long ago and it came to around $90 here..

I trust the food, and with all the recalls out there. i'm happy to pay that much to keep my dog healthy. Its cheaper in the long run because I wont have to run into a ridiculous amount of vet bills as he ages as well. He'll be taken off of the RM forumla as soon as he maintains a healthy weight, right now hes still gaining mass so he'll stay on it until hes at or above his required weight IMO.

But.. he'll also be staying on the Innova itself. I *may* switch to Canidae becaue I like that food as well, and it is considerably cheaper here as well. I would like to keep him on possibly even Solid Gold as I do very much like this food and he was on it as a puppy. It all depends on what else has been recalled over the years.

So far all the food recalls have been because of corn, wheat and rice.

 

[okiegirl]

While I trust Natura, and think the company is awesome, I really don't understand regular Innova's stellar reputation. Just going off ingredients - they have barley, brown rice, potatoes and rice all in the main ingredients. In any other food that would be "grain-heavy". JMO, they place entirely too much emphasis on the apples, carrots and cottage cheese. I doubt those are in enough quantity, or have enough nutritional value left after processing, to be beneficial. Those seem like things that would be much better given fresh at home, if they are to be given at all. IMO, the only things it has going for it are the fact that it has both meat and meat meal first on the ingredient list and the company standing behind it.

Around here regular Innova adult is around $52/33 lbs and Canidae is $29.99/40 lbs.

 

[Herschel]

They don't have their own manufacturing facility, don't do any feeding trials etc., so they don't have the same overhead costs compared to other companies.

You have been misinformed.

Tosca's Mom emailed them a while ago. I've posted this multiple times and I'm sorry that you've missed it.

"Dear Cynthia,

To reiterate, CANIDAE Pet Foods is in no way is affected by the current can re-call, and we aren't, or have never been, produced at any of the recalled facilities. We do not produce Cuts and Gravy, Pouches, and none of our products contain wheat, or wheat gluten.

With the current cuts and gravy recall by a large co-packer, and all the misleading information, we thought we would help explain the production of canned foods. There are only a hand full of co-packers that are located in the US and they produce most canned foods. A few companies choose to have their cans made outside the US, and may or may not disclose that information to you. The pet food industry co-packers are no different from the human products we ourselves eat or drink on a daily basis. Each formula is different and unique to the specific pet food company in which the formulas are owned. Ingredients, quality grade of meats, grade of carbohydrates, vitamin and mineral formulations, to name a few, are all at the discretion of the pet food company in which the products are produced for, and are apparent by the governmental regulated labels. Our heartfelt concerns go out to all involved and or affected by the re-call.All Canidae products are produced in the USA. We do not purchase ingredients from any suppliers outside of the US. All Canidae ingredients are grown &/or raised in the USA. In addition, we only purchase the absolute best USDA grade "A" hormone and antibiotic free meats. Our rice is also grade "A" Pesticide free. Our fish is FDA inspected and passed residual free of ethoxiquin.

Our cannery is a small facility located in IL. and able to produce the highest quality products. This small family operated facility only produces products that are of the highest quality human grade ingredients. Our formulations were created by an outside nutritionist that has been developing canned foods for over 35 years. You can feel assured by our quality and product performance that our cannery holds the highest standards in production, and is regulated by AAFCO by (NRC), USDA, FDA, IDA, EU Approved and is Organically Certified.

Our dry foods are produced in TX. Our plant has been involved in animal nutrition for over 75 years. The original pet food extrusion mill was built in 1978. CANIDAE's involvement with the plant sparked the introduction of our own extruder in 1999. Our dry goods facility also regulated by AAFCO by (NRC), USDA, FDA, TDA and EU Approved. We are currently under production with a brand new plant at the same facility to keep up with the growth and demand of our product line.

In order to ensure the highest quality meat based biscuit ever created, we ventured into the biscuit production business in 2003. Our 100 foot oven runs our fresh biscuits daily in a building opposite our extrusion plant in TX. Our biscuit plant is also regulated by AAFCO by (NRC), USDA, FDA, TDA and EU Approved.
Sincerely,
Team Canidae"

So can you please explain to me again why Natura's products are often so much more expensive than Canidae's? A small family operated canning facility is more trustworthy to me than a Menu foods plant (Natura), and Canidae has their own manufacturing facility for their dry food.

 

[dk666]

Innova is overpriced in some places. The cheapest I can find EVO for is $65 for a 30lb bag - to me, that's absolutely insane, but I'm sure there is a reason for it. Canidae can be pretty outrageous here too, depending on the store. The cheapest I've seen the 40lb bag was $55. It could just be my location, as I've never checked the prices anywhere else. In fact, I can't get any premium foods for less than $50 (which is what I pay for Orijen and California Natural).

WOW that's high on the Canidae here in my area the 33lb chicken and rice is about $28 and the 40lb ALS about $35 that's at a few places in my area that carry them.

 

[Beanie]

I too was a little surprised that Canidae supposedly doesn't have their own manufacturing plant given they just said not that long ago that they did.
If Mordy's information is true Auggie is OFF the Canidae faster than you can say "puppy."

 

[okiegirl]

Our dry foods are produced in TX. Our plant has been involved in animal nutrition for over 75 years. The original pet food extrusion mill was built in 1978. CANIDAE's involvement with the plant sparked the introduction of our own extruder in 1999. Our dry goods facility also regulated by AAFCO by (NRC), USDA, FDA, TDA and EU Approved. We are currently under production with a brand new plant at the same facility to keep up with the growth and demand of our product line.

...

So can you please explain to me again why Natura's products are often so much more expensive than Canidae's? A small family operated canning facility is more trustworthy to me than a Menu foods plant (Natura), and Canidae has their own manufacturing facility for their dry food.

Canidae does not have their own dry facility, and they never said they do. They have their own extruder though. In saying "our facility" they mean the facility that they use, not their own facility.

"CANIDAE's involvement with the plant"

Anyway, they are supposed to be made at the Pied Piper Mill in TX.
http://www.piedpiperpetfood.net

Still trustworthy, but not owned by Canidae.

 

[showpug]

I too was a little surprised that Canidae supposedly doesn't have their own manufacturing plant given they just said not that long ago that they did.
If Mordy's information is true Auggie is OFF the Canidae faster than you can say "puppy."

What is Mordy's information? Did I miss something

 

[Herschel]

Canidae does not have their own dry facility, and they never said they do. They have their own extruder though. In saying "our facility" they mean the facility that they use, not their own facility.

"CANIDAE's involvement with the plant"

Anyway, they are supposed to be made at the Pied Piper Mill in TX.
http://www.piedpiperpetfood.net

Still trustworthy, but not owned by Canidae.

Hmm. That's tough wording.

So Canidae is made at Pied Piper Feed Mill but on their own equipment.

 

[Herschel]

I just found this:

Here's the list I have of what's made where...

Blue Buffalo: Canned foods made by American > > Nutrition in Utah. Dry foods made at CJ Foods in Kansas.

Breeder's Choice: Canned diets made at Menu Foods, but have not been recalled.

Canidae: Canned food packed by Evangers. Kibble made at Pied Piper in Texas.

Canine Caviar: Canned food made by American Nutrition in Utah. Kibble made by Pied Piper in Texas. Canned diets are 100% meat, contain no grains.

Castor & Pollux: Canned diets made by Menu Foods but have not been recalled.

Eagle Pack: Canned diets made at Menu Foods but have not been recalled and do not contain Wheat Gluten. Dry diets made at their own plant in Mishawaka, IN.

Evangers: They have their own cannery.

Go! Natural (Petcurean): Canned diets made at Menu Foods in Canada but have not been recalled.

Merrick: Has their own plant for all products.

Natura (Healthwise, California Naturals, Innova): Canned diets made at the South Dakota Menu Foods Plant but have not been recalled. Dry diets are made at their own plant.

Natural Balance: Canned diets made at American Nutrition in Utah. Dry diets are made in Diamond Plant in Sacramento, CA.

Nature's Variety: Canned diets made at Menu Foods but have not been recalled. The canned diets contain not grains. Kibble is made at Pied Piper in Texas. Raw diets are made in an in house plant in Lincoln, Ne.

Pet Promise: Purina Brand ... canned and kibble made in their plants.

Solid Gold: It is unknown where canned diets were made. Kibble is made in the Diamond Plant in Sacramento, CA.

Timberwolf Organics: Just released one canned diet and working on additions, it is unsure where this is made, but due to the size of Menu Foods I highly doubt it is being done there. Kibble was at one point being co-packed somewhere in PA but I've heard rumors that it is now being made out of the Diamond Plant. I cannot confirm this and the company will not give out information.

Wellness/Old Mother Hubbard: Canned diets made at Menu Foods but have not been recalled.

Wysong: Canned diets made at Menu Foods but have not been recalled. Most of their line of cans are grain free.

Showpug, you might want to stay away from Canine Caviar. It's made by American Nutrition--the same folks that added rice protein isolate without telling Natural Balance!

 

[Psyfalcon]

In comparing prices.. Canadian money is worth less than US money (for now )

Toller and Summerriot are in Canada.

 

[sam]

From Mordy
"Canidae doesn't own these plants outright, they have some type of a partnership and some specific equipment there. They just say "our" referring to the businesses do work with, which I don't like, since it's misleading - unlike for example Natura, which owns and operates its own dry food plant or Evanger's, which has their own cannery.

I know the mill that makes their dry food is Pied Piper, a private label manufacturer in Hamlin, TX (http://www.piedpiperpetfood.net), but I do not know the company they use for their canned foods - they refuse to disclose that information.

I'm really not happy with them recently, because every time I ask specific questions, I either get a copy/paste reply that they seem to send to everyone, or my emails are completely ignored.

They now also sign all of them "Team Canidae" instead of with the name and position of the person answering, so that you can't even refer to a specific person."

-Showpug-- the info in my post is from me asking Mordy. And I think Canine Caviar is now part of the recall isn't it? I'm not sure on that so don't quote me but I thought I read that somewhere today.


Interesting that Evangers has their own cannery. I wonder if that's trustworthy info-- I have several cans of Evangers chicken in my pantry that I've been leary of using. My dogs LOVE it and it if smell and labelling s any indication , it's good stuff. We haven't had Evangers here very long and I honestly don't know much about them except that their products look nice.

From what I understand it's very expensive to have a cannery which is why there are only a few throughout North America wether it be for human food or pet food.

I'm finding it hard to know who to trust at this point. I sure don't like that Canidae writes a vague e-mail seeming to infer but not quite saying that they have their own plants/facilities when they don't.
I'm happy that Naturapet is planning to open their own cannery (So far to me, they are one of the most trustworthy companies around) but that will take time and Sammy doesn't do that well on Evo canned anyway. Bah! I hate all of this. ________________________

 

[okiegirl]

-Showpug-- the info in my post is from me asking Mordy. And I think Canine Caviar is now part of the recall isn't it? I'm not sure on that so don't quote me but I thought I read that somewhere today.

Yes, the Canine Caviar "all meat" "grain-free" turkey and beaver cans were recalled due to rice protein concentrate today.

 

[showpug]

Yes, the Canine Caviar "all meat" "grain-free" turkey and beaver cans were recalled due to rice protein concentrate today.

True. They are claiming that the canning plant that they use put "unauthorized" rice protein in the foods.

I have heard a lot of food companies claiming the plant added the rice protein without permission...weird.

 

[Brattina88]

yea, weirdly convenient of them