I think we all need to stop and think...

[Dizzy]

Thank you Dekka

Dizzy, I think that's a little uncalled for. Having an opinion about a subject that hits close to home is great. Attacking someone personally for having that opinion is wrong.

Well, I don't. What so ever! So sue me, I made a personal comment for once, nothing more than I have seen other people do time and time and time and time again for the past X years.

Sometimes you get sick and tired of watching people SLAY people down and act like they're doing it "in the name of dogs wellbeing" when really, they just want... what? Who knows what.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

I guess what I am saying is that yes people should be given chances to show that they have learned from their mistakes, but how many chances should they be given? At what point can you point to someone and say 'you are acting like a twit and we don't like what you are doing'?

Or do you want this to be one of those forums where its ok to byb and train with staves or kohler (the hanging parts) and you can't ever say you disagree?

General "you":

And to further draw upon that.. what if your friend is being a twit? Is that okay? Or would you stand up and say something to them? What if one of your friends went above and beyond what is appropriate behavior? Is it okay because you know them? And you think they are fighting the greater good?

And so what if we do get a BYB and they realize their mistakes, are they never to be trusted again? Are we to be so quick to judge that we say you f-ed up so every time you log in and where ever you go the lynch mob is going to be right there with you to re-hash your history and your every mistake? And what if someone (we have a member now, if I recall correctly) that believes in anything BUT positive reinforcement and you try to tell them over and over and over again but they just don't seem to get it but then they eventually do in their own time (we're talking at least a year or so). Do they get pushed out because they don't believe in your ways? Or do we give people an opportunity to grow without self-righteous "my way or the highway" people harping on their every single move?

How can anyone feel that this is a good place that educates and loves animals when we can't practice what we preach? I sure believe in positive reinforcement for dogs, I think a great number of us do as well... but we sure don't show that patience and love and respect to our own kind and those that do are few and far between. We should educate instead of tar and feather and throwing rocks because as the OP said... there is not one person here who has not made a mistake.. what if that new person who made a series of mistakes was you and you were treated the way that you treat others... would it be okay then too?

No one is saying you can't disagree. That would suck all of the fun out of a forum as debates would stop and we could no longer share anything because we all certainly don't agree on all topics. BUT what is being said is that sometimes enough is enough.

 

[bubbatd]

There are times to post and times to bite your tongue and move on .

 

[xpaeanx]

I think that sometimes people need to be called out. the manner of the way people do it could probably be different in a lot of cases. There's a lot of gray area between what is/isn't called for. the other problem is that you don't always get "tone" in a post. so someone may come off as attacking when really they weren't.

I think my main problem that I see happen is when people don't read the entire post or thread(as information may come up in later posts) and then assume something and post a snarky comment based on their assumption that is completely wrong.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

I think that sometimes people need to be called out. the manner of the way people do it could probably be different in a lot of cases. There's a lot of gray area between what is/isn't called for. the other problem is that you don't always get "tone" in a post. so someone may come off as attacking when really they weren't.

I think my main problem that I see happen is when people don't read the entire post or thread(as information may come up in later posts) and then assume something and post a snarky comment based on their assumption that is completely wrong.

Or they read through so quickly and respond with emotions leading their fingers on the keyboard, instead of logical thought.

 

[xpaeanx]

^^^I think that often happens when they dont read the whole thing. As in they read the first paragraph where something bad is stated, and they fail the 2nd paragraph where the "why" is explained. But yes, I agree with you on that one.

 

[J's crew]

Sometimes you get sick and tired of watching people SLAY people down and act like they're doing it "in the name of dogs wellbeing" when really, they just want... what? Who knows what.

:hail: I have to agree with you Dizzy.

And if you ARE someone who rakes people over the coals, don't be surprised when it happens to you.

All in all I think scaring people away is really doing a diservice to dogs or your breed. Many people learn alot form the internet and Chaz has always had so many good, informative, nice people I think it's sad when someone is jumped on over and over and over for the same thing.

Great post Saje.

 

[Squishy22]

General "you":

And to further draw upon that.. what if your friend is being a twit? Is that okay? Or would you stand up and say something to them? What if one of your friends went above and beyond what is appropriate behavior? Is it okay because you know them? And you think they are fighting the greater good?

And so what if we do get a BYB and they realize their mistakes, are they never to be trusted again? Are we to be so quick to judge that we say you f-ed up so every time you log in and where ever you go the lynch mob is going to be right there with you to re-hash your history and your every mistake? And what if someone (we have a member now, if I recall correctly) that believes in anything BUT positive reinforcement and you try to tell them over and over and over again but they just don't seem to get it but then they eventually do in their own time (we're talking at least a year or so). Do they get pushed out because they don't believe in your ways? Or do we give people an opportunity to grow without self-righteous "my way or the highway" people harping on their every single move?

How can anyone feel that this is a good place that educates and loves animals when we can't practice what we preach? I sure believe in positive reinforcement for dogs, I think a great number of us do as well... but we sure don't show that patience and love and respect to our own kind and those that do are few and far between. We should educate instead of tar and feather and throwing rocks because as the OP said... there is not one person here who has not made a mistake.. what if that new person who made a series of mistakes was you and you were treated the way that you treat others... would it be okay then too?

No one is saying you can't disagree. That would suck all of the fun out of a forum as debates would stop and we could no longer share anything because we all certainly don't agree on all topics. BUT what is being said is that sometimes enough is enough.

This is exactly how I feel. Of course, I could not have said it any better. To me, it does not makes sense to run away a byb or a FORMER byb when they could stay here and learn a thing or two and we can keep an eye on how things are going. ESPECIALLY after he clearly states that he does want to make things right. I mean, is that not good enough? You live and you learn. Change is NOT impossible. And if you truly do have your breed at heart, then you will do what it takes to educate, not to run someone off into the dark where they may or may not make the same bad choices anyway.

 

[dr2little]

You already know how I feel about this Saje....GREAT POST!!!!

 

[Dekka]

BP I agree. And I do try to be nice and give polite help. BUT what happens when people are not listning like with byb. Some of you have said walk away... yet then some of these same people come on and decry the state of pet overpopulation. You can't have it both ways.

So we are supposed to be nicey nicey at all times and never call someone out? What if being polite isn't getting through? I do want people to learn and not add to the problems dogs already face.

My question was (and still is) how long do you give people before you can call them out? Say a byb joins tomorrow and brags about breeding her 10 month old cockapoo to her new chorkie? We all are polite and say there are other ways of getting into breeding, and that health issues are concerns etc etc.... And nothing happpens. She could politely say I don't think those are issues and keep doing it. Sometimes it takes passion to get through to people.

(and yes I would call out a friend if they were doing something horrible)

 

[bubbatd]

This is when we educate and not bash them to death ! What's done is done !!!

 

[jess2416]

While a I agree with that post in its entirety there are issues outside of what you say.

Yep I have made mistakes. I didn't know any better. Now that I do I don't make those mistakes anymore (lol I make new ones). One of the things I do like about chaz over many other forums is that we WILL call out people who are liars or doing 'bad for dogs' type things.

I hate the other forums where you can come on and say you feed ol' roy and are breeding the chi you found on the street to your aunt's malitpoo cause the puppies will be sooo koot, and every ones says awwwwwww can't wait to see pics! You get in trouble if you start asking about health testing and vet care.

Yes this is an internet forum and that we should take what everyone says with a grain of salt, BUT, on this forum more than any other I feel I know people. I have made friends. I know at least 14 chazzers in real life. It really bothers me when people I feel am getting to know turn out to be false. I feel betrayed. It doesn't make me want to go on a which hunt, but it does make me want to be a bit more cautious next time.

Some of the lies on this forum have bothered me because it makes me feel like the poster of those lies thinks I am too stupid to notice them. In a way I am flattered they care enough about our opinion they will try to make up stuff so we like them better. But the thing is we like people the way they are. (or not as the case may be)

I have noticed the other side of the coin. I can debate hotly with someone and still like them just fine. IMO if you are going to post things publicly and you know they will be controversial then be prepared to talk about it. Its like a lot of threads we have had on DR/DA dogs. I strongly disagree with some members, as its a very important topic to me. There have been some heated threads, but some great points have been brought out and I still like everyone.

I guess what I am saying is that yes people should be given chances to show that they have learned from their mistakes, but how many chances should they be given? At what point can you point to someone and say 'you are acting like a twit and we don't like what you are doing'?

Or do you want this to be one of those forums where its ok to byb and train with staves or kohler (the hanging parts) and you can't ever say you disagree?

agreed

 

[Squishy22]

BP I agree. And I do try to be nice and give polite help. BUT what happens when people are not listning like with byb. Some of you have said walk away... yet then some of these same people come on and decry the state of pet overpopulation. You can't have it both ways.

So we are supposed to be nicey nicey at all times and never call someone out? What if being polite isn't getting through? I do want people to learn and not add to the problems dogs already face.

My question was (and still is) how long do you give people before you can call them out? Say a byb joins tomorrow and brags about breeding her 10 month old cockapoo to her new chorkie? We all are polite and say there are other ways of getting into breeding, and that health issues are concerns etc etc.... And nothing happpens. She could politely say I don't think those are issues and keep doing it. Sometimes it takes passion to get through to people.

(and yes I would call out a friend if they were doing something horrible)

I know where you are coming from, and I agree. But I thought we did call him out... over quite a few pages actually. He came back, admitted his wrong doings, and said he would take steps to improve and try to fix things from now on out. Thats when I thought, ok, now lets wait and see if he will stand up to what he said. But after that, someone else from another forum came over with more evidence against him... something that he did wrong in the PAST yet again... something that she dug up from another thread. And then one or two others members went on the attack yet again. My point here is that lets judge him on what he chooses to do in the present and the future not what been done did.

On the other hand...

If a byb came here and said she was breeding puggles because they are cute. I would call her out on it and expect everyone else to do the same. If she refuses to listen and goes on with her breedings regardless of what we have told her, then that is a different story. I would have absolutely no respect for someone who continues to do bad things. THAT I do not understand.

 

[Dekka]

just to note I am not referring to any person at this time. This has nothing to do with VomDom, other than that seems to have precipitated some of this.

There just seems to be another group on chaz that gets all upset when ANYONE gets called out at ANY time. I think there needs to be a balance in the middle.

 

[Zoom]

Just remember that you will always catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Some people do need to be educated and some even called out...there are plenty of idiot people out there. Others just simply don't know any better and I know (from being on the receiving end on another forum) that getting a mass gang-banging isn't the way to change anyone's mind.

 

[Saje]

Hey thanks for the sticky whoever did that...

I want to be clear that I don't think people should sit on the sidelines and let BYBers go uneducated. I'm a big fan of education but education is NOT beating someone into submission. People never get anywhere with this method. Someone might admit they were 'wrong' just to make it stop. Or they might leave. Or they might get their hackles up. But they hardly ever stop and think about what a bully is saying and then say "oh, yeah, I was wrong."

The point is to stop and think about your methods of communicating and if you are actually trying to communicate or if you want to run people off. If the latter is your goal then hopefully you are dealing with a spammer and not someone who is trying to be a productive member. Someone who could learn and make life better for their dogs.

ETA: To the people who are complaining about having to be 'nice' all the time. I'm not saying that either. But how many people need to gang up on a member? How many times do you need to say the same thing? If you are going to be harsh then at least give them time to recover and respond. Again, beating someone into submission is never going to get the results you want. What exactly do you expect to happen? Do you want them to roll over and show their bellies? Do you think they will immediately change their ways because they were 'called out.' Might be something to think about...

 

[ACooper]

I have no issues with people being called out on their lies. But........once it's done there is no need to keep beating a dead horse, it will NEVER serve any purpose here or in real life.

The ball will then be in their court to do with as they will.

Good post Saje

 

[sparks19]

I agree Coop. It's one thing to call someone out "HEY... you screwed up" but it is quite another to keep at it "Hey you screwed up" "You suck" "I can't believe you are so stupid" "what's wrong with you" "Your parents must have failed in raising you" "you suck (again)" "why don't you get your head out of your a$$" ETC ETC ETC ETC ... it gets old.

I am most definitely guilty of the above a time or two... or three or four. I know that sometimes i get sucked in and can't help myself. But no WAY am I going to come in here and try to defend the abuse I heap on another member. It doesn't matter WHAT I think...it is NOT JUSTIFIABLE. and usually I wake up the next morning (or a few mornings later) feeling like a complete a$$hole because I lost my cool and couldn't control myself. and you know WHY I feel like an A$$hole... because I BEHAVED like an a$$hole. I'm not going to try to convince myself that it was the right thing to do... because it wasn't. I just tell myself I am going to try my best not to do it again. Sure... I will slip up. I admit it. But I'm trying... not justifying my actions.

 

[LauraLeigh]

I am so glad you said that.

Absolutely couldn't agree MORE. It's seemed to have become the latest past time.

I'm suprised certain members weren't demanding background police checks for new members.

^^^^^ How I would like to have responded and better worded so I'll just Ditto Dizzy....

 

[onthink]

Well done!
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