I need some "you can do it!"s and "it's all ok"s

[StompinT]

Kind of joking. Kind of not.

I have an 11 month old Bouvier des Flandres. He is really great in so many ways. I've had him since he was 10 weeks old, and have devoted my entire freakin existence to training and socializing him.

We are currently enrolled in our EIGHTH set of classes. Mostly manners, basic obedience, a couple of agility intro classes thrown in. One disastrous herding session thrown in for good measure.

He is extremely bonded to me. I am his most favorite person ever. I don't work outside the home, and spend all day, every day with him. Several short training sessions a day. Lots of walks, training, etc.

BUT I AM GETTING SO FRUSTRATED. Grrrrr. His recall SUCKS. Oh yes, it's good at home, in the backyard. Add the slightest distraction and he blows me off. Every time I try to take him out in a field on a long line, he nearly rips my damned arm off chasing something suddenly. Have I mentioned his drive to chases? it is OUT OF THIS WORLD. On walks I can manage it just fine. Anything else, forget about it.

I have been working "leave it" since the week he came home. While it used to be great, he now blows me off much of the time.

Loose leash walking? Around the neighborhood it's great 95% of the time. Take him somewhere more interesting? Pull, pull pull. I know, I know. Stop. Wait. Blah blah blah. Better treats. I know. But I swear we've put in like 300 hours on loose leash walking alone, and just yesterday I tried a new park for a walk and the first 40 minutes were spent dealing with him pulling and we only got about 40 feet. He wears a buckle collar only. I refuse to use a prong (even though every other Bouvier I've ever seen wears one) because that seems like a huge failure to me. Won't use a head halter either. This dog is going to walk nicely using a buckle collar if it's the last thing I do.

Also, his manners with other dogs SUCK. He rarely greats another dog in a relaxed manner. He's way too intense and immediately tries to solicit a game of chase (his most favorite thing in the world, big surprise). When corrected he'll back off immediately, but I mean COME ON DUDE. Take a freakin chill pill and then maybe they will actually WANT to play with you.

And I know, don't compare your dogs to each other. Just like kids right? Well, at this point in my training with my shih tzu, she was working 100% off leash with AMAZING skills. I can't believe I didn't pursue any titles with her. If only I knew .....

Anyway, I guess this is mostly just a vent. I know he's an adolescent. And unfortunately his brain isn't going to catch up with his body for at least another year. GOOD GOD HOW AM I GOING TO SURVIVE ANOTHER YEAR OF THIS?

 

[milos_mommy]

Well....most 11 month old dogs brains fall out of their heads a lot no matter how well trained they are.

Does he get extensive exercise before you go new places? If you're planning on going to a new park or place with lots of distractions, I'd use a flirt pole or play hard fetch or let him play with the neighbors dog or something that AM (or do a long walk at home) so he's a little less energetic when you get there. He'll still probably pull and be excited, but it shouldn't last as long.

Also, have you tried a halti or front clip harness? I would use that for new places, especially with such a large dog. A regular buckle collar for regular walks and training, but don't give him the opportunity to pull at a park or new outing. He can still be trained to walk nicely on a buckle collar, but pulling is a self rewarding behavior, so unless you're spending your ENTIRE trip to the park doing "be a tree" or changing directions when he pulls, he might be back sliding a little in this stimulating situations. It's not like he'll need it forever, but for the next few months while he matures and training clicks a little more, it might make things A LOT more enjoyable.

 

[FG167]

I refuse to use a prong (even though every other Bouvier I've ever seen wears one) because that seems like a huge failure to me. Won't use a head halter either. This dog is going to walk nicely using a buckle collar if it's the last thing I do.

A prong/pinch collar is a training tool. Just because a person uses it, does not mean they won't be able to walk on a flat collar later. I taught my GSD to walk nicely on the pinch and now he can walk on a flat collar no issues, or a slip lead, or a tab, basically anything. It's not a failure, it's a tool.

 

[StompinT]

You know, I ordered a harness yesterday for just this reason. He is so big, and so bloody strong.

Oh, and I have another thing to add to my complaints - can't find a good way to sustain play with this guy. He won't fetch. Will chase a fast moving object, but that stops quickly when I can never get the damned thing back. He will play tug with me, and loves it when I push him around a lot, so maybe I need to work that more. He just isn't very interested in toys overall, which is a first for me. I need more tools in my tool belt, obviously.

Another problem is that I don't have access to any other dogs for him to play with. None of my friends have dogs, and only 1 neighbor (across the back and I don't even really know those people).

Thanks for the suggestions though. Good advice.

 

[StompinT]

And I knew I was going to offend some with the prong reference. I am sorry. Wasn't my intention - but it really does feel to me like I should be able to do this without the use of one.

 

[milos_mommy]

Do you have a flirt pole? Can he swim anywhere?

 

[StompinT]

Swimming is a great idea, though at this point he's never had the chance. He'll have plenty of opportunity this summer when we spend a lot of time at the lake.

I am going to order a flirt pole RIGHT NOW. LOL!

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

And I knew I was going to offend some with the prong reference. I am sorry. Wasn't my intention - but it really does feel to me like I should be able to do this without the use of one.

I don't think you were offensive so much as dismissive. A prong is a tool when used properly. You're basically saying you could hammer the 5 inch nail in with a claw hammer but you're determined to do it with a tiny jewelers hammer. Sure, it's possible to do it but there are better tools for the job. Just another way to look at it as a tool rather than a last resort.

 

[Southpaw]

I know you probably don't want people to keep focusing on the prong part hahaha but seriously - if you aren't against them because you think they're cruel etc, then I wouldn't completely write them off as a tool. Maybe you have more tolerance than me lol but I just can't stand walking a dog that pulls, and having to try to out-muscle a dog that is obviously much stronger than I am. I pair the prong with rewards for the correct behavior... and they just end up getting the picture much faster. I don't use the prong on Juno or Cajun anymore for our walks, usually they're just on a harness. I WILL still put prongs on them in situations where I want to make sure I still have good control, especially if I have both of them together (like at pet stores or events).

Definitely not saying every dog needs one, but I think for people who have an end result in mind, are trying and getting frustrated with the progress.. they're worth considering. They don't have to be used forever.

Also keep in mind the harness might make it worse if it's just a regular one that clips in the back. They can put a lot more strength behind their pulling. Or you can have a dog like Juno who is weird and for whatever reason, finds pulling in a harness one of the most aversive things ever, then you'd be good to go . And Cajun has always been much more pressure sensitive on her neck, so if she pulls on a flat collar she'll give in to the pressure pretty easily, but is more likely to pull in a harness. If it has an o-ring in the front you can clip the leash there and that can help give you more control, and turn it into a "no pull" harness, but my experience with my own dogs is that if they want to pull... they can still pull pretty well even like that.

OTHERWISE. lol. Yes he's at a crappy age and the best you can do is just keep up with the training, and one day they grow a brain and it makes sense to them. Juno drove me batty until at least 18 months old. Maybe closer to 2 years. There were a lot of days where I just did not like her and thought I was doomed to have the worst dog ever. We got past that stage!

 

[amberdyan]

I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to use a prong/pinch collar. I don't use one, though I don't judge those that use them properly.

All I have to say is that it gets better : ) It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job, and it's really really going to pay off. Hugo is 16 months and he's already LEAGUES better than he was at 10 months. He was so annoying with other dogs that I really couldn't let him interact with dogs at the dog park. Now he mostly chooses to ignore them unless they entice him to chase, then he'll play some chase games and move on.

And I know the recall thing is awful... Hugo had great recall from the time we got him until about 10-11 months and then it's like all the training went out the window. We work on it on a long line everyday and now he's really getting it and it's incredibly exciting.

You might not see it now, but this frustrating 1-2 years is going to make for an amazing 10 years after : )

 

[StompinT]

Thank you for the reassurance. I really needed it.

So .... Louis gave a clinic on obedience this morning while I worked with him for 30 minutes in front of a busy mall. And I've had a revelation - the troubles I have with him always occur in a rural / park setting. His behavior in an urban setting is pretty darned close to impeccable. He has no trouble with lots of action, crowds of people, etc. The reason our earlier herding experience was out of control? He was out of control (I am speaking in hyperbole here) from the moment we arrived at the farm.

It makes sense - he has had a significant amount of exposure to urban settings, much less to rural settings. So, after our time at the mall, and a short rest, I took him to a ball diamond in a large grassy park area and we worked ON LEASH. I think this is going to be key. I quickly found out being close to the tree line was far too difficult for him to maintain a loose leash and focus on me, so we started about 20 feet from the tree line. Then went for a sniff. We ended with about 15 minutes of running and playing off leash, together. I think I am going to really try to work with him a lot more in rural settings over the next little while.

I've got a whole new attitude today. Whew.

 

[StompinT]

And I truly hear all the comments about the prong. It's a training tool. I guess I'm so biased because all the people in real life I see with prongs on their dogs just use it as a default - they were too lazy to actually do any training (I mean a real, sustained effort), and that prong just stays on the dog, all the time.

I will not rule out the prong collar. At this moment in time, I'm not going to use it. That could change by tomorrow

 

[frostfell]

what modivation does he have to do what you want? sure, if he DOES he gets cookies and a pat on the head. What happens to him if he doesnt? what happens to him when he pulls? what happens to him when he rudely yanks your arm out of the socket? what happens to him when he gets into the trash and wont give you the rotting green slimey pork chop? wanting to be fair and positive is all well and good, but is he actually learning, clearly and precisely, what is wanted of him, and more importantly, what things are Not Acceptable Ever?

 

[Izzy's Valkyrie]

And I truly hear all the comments about the prong. It's a training tool. I guess I'm so biased because all the people in real life I see with prongs on their dogs just use it as a default - they were too lazy to actually do any training (I mean a real, sustained effort), and that prong just stays on the dog, all the time.

I will not rule out the prong collar. At this moment in time, I'm not going to use it. That could change by tomorrow

Totally fair and valid. And hey, maybe you'll never need one! Hopefully things will continue to improve.

 

[milos_mommy]

I'm not totally, always against prongs, but (so far) have never used or recommended one to anyone. However, I do find it a little bit hard to imagine a nearly full grown bouv being completely prevented from successfully pulling in a rural/park setting, especially for a trip for exercise/pleasure and not solely dedicated as a training session, so I'd definitely recommend some kind of training tool (prong, halti, front clasp harness, that thing where you wrap the leash across the chest) to help you...it can NOT be good for your shoulders!

Otherwise honestly this all sounds normal and like you're approaching it well and he will definitely start behaving more in control in the next few months.


That said:

I once had a grooming client come in late, with her unneutered golden because he "got out AGAIN" and she had to look for him.

He was on a prong collar attached to a flexi lead.

 

[Bruschnazzy]

And I knew I was going to offend some with the prong reference. I am sorry. Wasn't my intention - but it really does feel to me like I should be able to do this without the use of one.

Don't worry, I'm with you personally.

I won't use any of those "tools" either, and always have to roll my eyes when someone thinks a large breed (or certain large breeds) can't be trained to not pull (etc.) without them or should need assitance of a prong or other implement to not. Kind of like the people who say tiny little dogs can't be trained or are impossible to train as they just have no smarts. I have to wonder if there are all these ways of training +, that do work, why we have to turn to other ways of training, just because a dog may be taking longer to learn or maybe the original usage (without these considered negative tools) isn't working (but there are other considered positive options)? I admit, even some outside the "general crowd", I find turn to prongs, e-collars, etc. due to laziness or inpatience too. Sure, there are harder dogs, but those I just see as dogs who need that more time and patience. opcorn:

[Probably not the place for this, but I've come to notice I let these comments out whenever I first wake up - and Chaz is a place I usually visit first. ]

 

[GatorDog]

Don't worry, I'm with you personally.

I won't use any of those "tools" either, and always have to roll my eyes when someone thinks a large breed (or certain large breeds) can't be trained to not pull (etc.) without them or should need assitance of a prong or other implement to not. Kind of like the people who say tiny little dogs can't be trained or are impossible to train as they just have no smarts. I have to wonder if there are all these ways of training +, that do work, why we have to turn to other ways of training, just because a dog may be taking longer to learn or maybe the original usage (without these considered negative tools) isn't working (but there are other considered positive options)? I admit, even some outside the "general crowd", I find turn to prongs, e-collars, etc. due to laziness or inpatience too. Sure, there are harder dogs, but those I just see as dogs who need that more time and patience. opcorn:

[Probably not the place for this, but I've come to notice I let these comments out whenever I first wake up - and Chaz is a place I usually visit first. ]

LOL. How many large breed working dogs have you owned? And you admit you have zero real experience with prongs or ecollars?

 

[milos_mommy]

LOL. How many large breed working dogs have you owned? And you admit you have zero real experience with prongs or ecollars?

Ok - I'm not who you're responding to, but I feel the same way (disregarding the first two sentences) as the poster you're replying to:

I've never owned large breed working dogs, but have foster, and regularly walked and trained both clients, family members, and rescue dogs of that description. I've worked with well over 300 dogs, and I think a rough estimate would be 1/5th or so of them to be large breed workers, or large bully breeds. This has involved walking multiple, reactive, 80+ lb dogs together.

I have never used a prong collar by choice, but have used them under owners requests or other trainers guidance. I don't honestly see any training benefits MOST OF THE TIME they're used. Out of 300+ dogs (maybe going on 350 by now), I've only ever had one case where I might have used a prong collar on the dog and expected to get some benefit (that couldn't be otherwise achieved) from it.

To be fair, I have zero experience with Ecollars, except one pair of english shepherds who just took their shaking and wall eyed until something pushed them to react and the owner zapped them again. But I really don't expect I will ever use one.

ETA: This has been almost exclusively for pet home dogs, barring a few cases. I thought by working dogs, you meant working breeds, but now I'm wondering if you mean dogs that are ACTUALLY working individuals.

 

[Julee]

She deeefinitely means actual working dogs. Not working breeds.

 

[FG167]

I won't use any of those "tools" either, and always have to roll my eyes when someone thinks a large breed (or certain large breeds) can't be trained to not pull (etc.) without them or should need assitance of a prong or other implement to not.

I have to wonder if there are all these ways of training +, that do work, why we have to turn to other ways of training, just because a dog may be taking longer to learn or maybe the original usage...

Sure, there are harder dogs, but those I just see as dogs who need that more time and patience. opcorn:

Whether you use them or not, they are still "tools" so quoting them like they are not is sort of odd.

I am for prong/pinch collar training if used correctly but no where did I say any dogs CAN'T be trained without them...or SHOULD NEED them. I find them easy to use, I'm good at it, and I have a lot of experience training dogs, so why would I NOT utilize my "tool" that I have.

"Why we have to turn to other ways of training"....ok, who dictates which ways of training are the "good" ways and the bad ways. Just because you like to train a certain way, does not mean that 1. I can train that way, 2. I want to train that way, 3. that I HAVE to train that way. I did not put down any other method of training offered here, and I wouldn't. I think every person has to decide what the best method is for them and the specific dog that they are working with. I do not agree that there's ONE method that everyone should stick to otherwise they are "turning to those OTHER ways".

Also, I am going to again ditto Alexis on wondering how many large, working line, and working dogs you have personally handled. There are harder dogs that will not respect your + only methods and will injure you.