How to stop aggressive biting?

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#21
Please - I asked for ALL input from both positive & negative sides of the camp - without judgment. I'm well aware of the differences of opinions on both sides. I'm middle of the road and believe by gathering all the info I can, I'll find the answer somewhere in the middle.



Now I never thought of this one and will find out if they've tested for it in their routine blood work. Great idea - thanks!!
I'm affraid you'll always get both advice and disagreement. That's what happens when you start a thread, especially one that invites so many differing opinions AND levels of understanding and knowledge.:)

What was given as advice (for a HUGE forum to read) regarding pulling a dogs front paws off of the floor by the neck and shaking him side to side is not simply advice from a "negative camp" (don't even know what that means:confused: )...it's abusive and I certainly won't sit here silent and read such inhumane and ignorant advice without responding.
 
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Doberluv

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#22
it's abusive and I certainly won't sit here silent and read such inhumane and ignorant advise.
Me neither. Unbelievable!

My advice will never be to mishandle or mistreat an animal or anything which is so illogical, ignorant and incompatable with canine learning behavior. A dog does NOT understand that kind of abuse. Anyone who does that or any variation of it should't have dogs. So, you can find your own way. "Middle ground" guess work...the blind leading the blind.
 

Dekka

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#23
The dominance thing is a myth. Ppl can have opinions if they want, but some people still believe the earth is flat ;) I chose to go with the overwhelming evidence, and non partisan research. That and I personally have worked with many JRTs that came to rescue because they bit and or were aggressive. The NILIF worked for all but one that had an untreatable medical condition. The one had been made much much worse by a person who met aggression with aggression, the dog was a scary scary basket case.

Interestingly it seems only pet owners not behaviouralists that advocate the old myth.
 
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#24
I try to post with respect to other members, even when I disagree with them, because I don't believe in abusing humans anymore than I do animals.

So, you can find your own way. "Middle ground" guess work...the blind leading the blind.
It looks like you're assuming you know what I'm going to do and becoming derogatory because of your assumption. Never an intelligent thing to do.
 
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#25
..... from a "negative camp" (don't even know what that means:confused:)
From Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/camp

8. a group of people favoring the same ideals, doctrines, etc.: Most American voters are divided into two camps, Republicans and Democrats.

9. any position in which ideals, doctrines, etc., are strongly entrenched: After considering the other side's argument, he changed camps.

Hence, my use of the terms "positive" & "negative" camps at this board.
 
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#26
From Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/camp
8. a group of people favoring the same ideals, doctrines, etc.: Most American voters are divided into two camps, Republicans and Democrats.

9. any position in which ideals, doctrines, etc., are strongly entrenched: After considering the other side's argument, he changed camps.

Hence, my use of the terms "positive" & "negative" camps at this board.


Thanks for the english lesson but I was referring to the fact that no one with a background in Canine behavior would give you the kind of "negative" advice you're soliciting.

It's your dog that I'm trying to protect when I respond to things such as hanging and shaking. Silly of me or others on here who gave you good advice to assume you'd see it as an effort to help you.

I guess next time I'll just stay out of this kind of thread because what you are in fact looking for is an EDUCATED and an UNEDUCATED opinion and you obviously put the same value to each. Now how intelligent is that:confused:

Ever consider that you just got some good advice and totally took it for granted. You're welcome by the way....:rolleyes:
 
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Spiritus

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#27
I'm with everyone who says not to meet aggression with aggression. Correcting a dog for aggression just makes the dog more unpredictable, more dangerous.

What I understood by "negative camp" was if people told you to put him down, you were ready to hear that advice. Human beings are not dogs. Our dogs know that we are not dogs. Therefore we cannot be dominant or alpha over our dogs. We can be leaders to our dog family, but we cannot be the alpha bitch.

And, when it comes to dogs correcting each other, I have watched a dog truly alpha roll another, and I can honestly say that the dog that was rolled was NOT TOUCHED by the dog that apparently rolled him. Dogs know when they cross the line with higher ranking dogs, and drop voluntarily at the loud noise/growl/snarl given by the higher ranking animal. Using a pop can or noise-making device is truly not going to benefit the dog. Scruffing the dog and shaking it is not going to help him. He needs leadership. The advice Doberluvr gave (at least I think it was you DL :) ) of ignoring the dog for a few days then only interacting during training is right on the money. NILIF is definitely needed. This is a leadership and tolerance issue, not a dominance issue, nor even truly an aggression issue.
 
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#28
I have to laugh at this, haha. abusive are you kidding me, haha. I have known this to work very well and the dogs never ended up scared and frightened of the owner or trainer and was usually much happier. so lifting a dogs front feet off the ground for a very short period of time when it goes to attack you is abusive. I have seen all positive trainers work and I have to say that I like my training methods better, they are firm but most deffinately not abusive and are far more effective. I would worry for the dogs trained by all positive trainers, I would not trust those dogs to listen to me in a time that would really count (dog suddenly was on the other side of the road and about to run back to me when traffics coming) For things that aren't going to possibly save the dogs life or a persons life (aggresive dogs) then deffinately keep everything as positive as possible.
You do what you do and I will do what I do as I am totally happy with it and it works and my dogs LOVE me and are very bonded to me.
 
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#29
Thanks for the english lesson but I was referring to the fact that no one with a background in Canine behavior would give you the kind of "negative" advice you're soliciting.

It's your dog that I'm trying to protect when I respond to things such as hanging and shaking. Silly of me or others on here who gave you good advice to assume you'd see it as an effort to help you.

I guess next time I'll just stay out of this kind of thread because what you are in fact looking for is an EDUCATED and an UNEDUCATED opinion and you obviously put the same value to each. Now how intelligent is that:confused:

Ever consider that you just got some good advice and totally took it for granted. You're welcome by the way....:rolleyes:
Oh, lordy, lordy, lordy. :rolleyes: Ever thought about asking for clarification before assuming & reacting? Wrongly, I might add.

1. I was actually using *your* definition of "negative" training which appears to me to be anything that involves any type of adverse training, physical discipline of any type, or harsh verbal admonishments. Nowhere did I say I was looking for any specific type of advice, nor did I ever say I was going to run right out and try any of it. I was simply asking for as much information & advice as I could get, so I could (hopefully) find a way to handle this.

2. You don't need to "protect" any of my animals. They are all very much loved, well-taken care of, and protected - and show it. For you to imply anything other than that when you know absolutely nothing about me, is beyond ludicrous.

Willie was, literally, taken off the euthanization table and given to rescue. I was his 4th or 5th foster home in 3 weeks because no one could deal with him. I'm a year into this and still have several behavoiral issues with him because I'm acutely aware he didn't have a happy puppyhood & I'm not into forcing anything on him. Does it sound like he's abused???

3. Educated or not, opinions & theories are just that - the opinions & theories of those stating them; and that includes your opinions. There is rarely, if ever, just one absolute way to handle anything in life. The same goes here.

Educated or not, there are trainers that use adverse training methods with great success, without negatively affecting the dog. Just because they don't share your theory of training doesn't make them wrong.

4. I don't subscribe to your methods without exception, which is what you appear to be preaching - and that's my right. I primarily use positive reinforcement, but I also believe in some adverse training. In my opinion, balance should be the goal and balance has to be individualized for each dog.

5. It's really unfortunate that some of you choose to address your disagreement with other posters by deriding and insulting those who disagree with you or who might have differing opinions. You would accomplish a lot more with respect & tact. In fact, one could wonder if you treat your dogs that disagree with you the same way.....

I simply asked for any and all advice & information. A poster I don't know posted something you disagreed with and because I restated that I was asking for all advice, you assumed the worst & attacked. Utterly irresponsible. Now I'm on the defensive when all I asked for was information. I *was* enjoying this board, but think I will take my leave when this thread is done.

That said, I started this evening by making Willie sit before I gave him dinner, and hand-fed him some before giving him the rest of his meal. He did not want to sit even tho he does it readily in many other situations. I also didn't let him get up in the swing with me tonight, nor am I letting him get in my chair with me. This has been hard for him so far because he's very needy, but he's complying.

I want to thank everyone who's given their advice in good faith. I'm taking in all the information and hopefully will end up with a trustable & happy dog.
 

Spiritus

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#30
so lifting a dogs front feet off the ground for a very short period of time when it goes to attack you is abusive.
Yes.


I have seen all positive trainers work and I have to say that I like my training methods better, they are firm but most deffinately not abusive and are far more effective. I would worry for the dogs trained by all positive trainers, I would not trust those dogs to listen to me in a time that would really count (dog suddenly was on the other side of the road and about to run back to me when traffics coming)
Then you have not seen truly well trained positively reinforced dogs.

If you truly had a dog launch itself in a truly "I'm going to kill you" manner, okay, defend yourself. Do what you need to do to save your life. If hurting a truly vicious dog is what is needed to save yourself from being maimed, well then yes, hurt the dog. But, in a training situation, telling a stranger on a public forum to physically correct the dog without seeing the situation and without truly knowing that person's experience with dogs, could put that person in a situation where he/she will get truly bit.

Koehler's methods worked and still do, but that doesn't mean we restrict ourselves to that. Clicker training works. Correction works. Positive reinforcement works. Negative reinforcement works. Now, does it not make sense to use positive methods and help the dog realize the leader of the family WITHOUT forcing him into submission?

I'm not against correction. I use it when I feel I need to. But I would never try to describe how to correct a dog with words over the internet. Words are always open to interpretation.
 

Rosefern

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#32
3. Educated or not, opinions & theories are just that - the opinions & theories of those stating them; and that includes your opinions. There is rarely, if ever, just one absolute way to handle anything in life. The same goes here.

Educated or not, there are trainers that use adverse training methods with great success, without negatively affecting the dog. Just because they don't share your theory of training doesn't make them wrong.

4. I don't subscribe to your methods without exception, which is what you appear to be preaching - and that's my right. I primarily use positive reinforcement, but I also believe in some adverse training. In my opinion, balance should be the goal and balance has to be individualized for each dog.
Koehler's methods worked and still do, but that doesn't mean we restrict ourselves to that. Clicker training works. Correction works. Positive reinforcement works. Negative reinforcement works. Now, does it not make sense to use positive methods and help the dog realize the leader of the family WITHOUT forcing him into submission?

I'm not against correction. I use it when I feel I need to. But I would never try to describe how to correct a dog with words over the internet. Words are always open to interpretation.
Which is exactlywhat I've been saying for years. You must have individual training methods for each dog...

Just one quick question, a little OT: Do all of you guys (and I mean ALL of you - no one in particular) umm...argue this much over different methods in real life, or just on Chaz? I was curious, because, in our rescue group, we deal with many "problem children" dogs, and even though the five or six "main trainers" all have very different standard methods, we very rarely fight about that...

-Rosefern
 
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#33
Arrg I just wrote this thing out and it deleted itself.
Ok, If someone gets up in my face and calls me abusive I sure as heck will tell them what's on my mind (and sometimes say things about other methods I shouldn't) But I do try to be open and respectful of all training methods(or atleast keep quiet as long as the methods aren't actually abusive) And will take the good things I see and incorperate them into my own training
 
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#34
.....Just one quick question, a little OT: Do all of you guys (and I mean ALL of you - no one in particular) umm...argue this much over different methods in real life, or just on Chaz? I was curious, because, in our rescue group, we deal with many "problem children" dogs, and even though the five or six "main trainers" all have very different standard methods, we very rarely fight about that...

-Rosefern
Arguing about nearly everything is an inherent feature of messageboards on the 'net, unfortunately. Part of the problem is that it can be difficult to convey in writing what you'd be able to easily convey in person. The other part is that some people who would not normally be rude in real life feel free to do it from behind the safe anonymity of their computer screens.

It may also be a part of the problem in this thread because some people are only able to "see" this problem dog that I have. They can't see all my other happy, secure, and spoiled pets, nor can they see the tremendous progress Willie's made in the last year. I want him to be as trustable in every situation as my puppy-raised dog is, and it's just not as easy to accomplish when they come with baggage.
 

RD

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#35
Aggression isn't under control until you get inside the dog's head and make him *want* to give an alternate response. Shaking and strangling might suppress the behavior, but it isn't going to change the dog's mind about anything. It doesn't show him a way out of a situation that he is uncomfortable in.

I would like to second Doberluv's advice in her first post to this thread. Isolate the dog and make him work for every bit of attention, food and playtime that he gets. No furniture (and keep a 4 foot leash on him when you go toso you can enforce that rule), and no being left unattended ever. Crate him or put him in an expen when you can't supervise him -- no stimulation in there either. Everything in his life needs to come from you. Before you say how mean that sounds, it doesn't need to be permanent. It's just boot camp, and it's enforcing your position as the leader without physically forcing him to do anything -- once you control his mind, his body will follow.

Make the good easy and the bad difficult. Don't set him up for situations where he will be aggressive. Instead, take baby steps towards those situations and make a benign demeanor the most rewarding thing for him. Right now, he thinks he'll get what he wants if he just bullies you around. I don't think this is dominance, I think it's a dog who is used to doing his own thing without much interruption. It's no wonder he gets pissed off when you try to interfere with his life.
 
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#36
....I think it's a dog who is used to doing his own thing without much interruption. It's no wonder he gets pissed off when you try to interfere with his life.
Not only did he get to live here with no interference, he also taught himself how to;

- walk on a leash
- walk up stairs
- live in a house
- ride in a car
- not be hyperactive and/or self destructive when he gets excited or frustrated
- take food gently out of a person's hand, rather than take the whole hand
- not try to kill any person or animal when he's eating
- sit patiently & wait while I feed the other animals
- sit patiently & wait his turn for treats
- sit patiently & wait for his turn in my lap
- sit patiently while I play with my other animals & understand he's not included in this game
- let me touch him everywhere on his body
- let me brush him & do minor trimming
- not jump on visitors
- not jump & bounce against things when he's excited
- trust me when he's sick and not think I'm going to hurt him
- play with my other dog without injuring her
- perform basic commands like, "come here", "back", "sit", "stay", "down", "jump up", "inside", "this way", "go around", "find Pinkie", "get your toy", "go get some water", "do kisses", and so forth.

There are other behavoirs he's still trying to teach himself, and some bad ones he's still trying to get rid of, but he thought it'd be a good idea to get his basic social skills done first.
 
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#37
Which is exactlywhat I've been saying for years. You must have individual training methods for each dog...

Just one quick question, a little OT: Do all of you guys (and I mean ALL of you - no one in particular) umm...argue this much over different methods in real life, or just on Chaz? I was curious, because, in our rescue group, we deal with many "problem children" dogs, and even though the five or six "main trainers" all have very different standard methods, we very rarely fight about that...

-Rosefern
What I think is so frustrating is that some of the suggestions, like hanging and shaking, are so out of the realm of what is done by the currently educated community (and I am NOT using that as a dig AT ALL) that it absolutely shocks me to see it even considered.

I live in a city where I see my peers at every professional seminar from here to the US. I send my clients to them if they are out of my area or my schedule is full and they do the same. We have a fantastic working relationship and support each other. Sam - (sorry Sam, had to use you;) ) was at a recent seminar and saw first hand how we are as a TEAM. We all work for the DOG, not against eachother.

There is one trainer here who runs dogs head first into park benches, knees them in the chest, hangs them, even punches them.....that guy we're ALL on like white on rice. I would hope that anyone reading this would feel the same.
I've NEVER seen him at a conference or seminar...NEVER. This is very typical of the type of trainer who decides he/she knows it all and who chooses to rest on his understanding of canine behavior or rather, lack there of. They are the ones who you often still see useing physically painful methods. They are also the ones who end up being forced out with either a lawsuit for a fault bite or injured dog or by the humane society and the community.

As is apparent again in this thread, I think that it's easy for some here to keep falling back on the statements about positive reinforcement training being ONE TYPE OF TRAINING. The most recent studies, and more importantly, practice of this information, proves that training void of physical punishment (completely different than "void of aversive" -I don't think this can even exist) is not only successful but safer for dog and owner. Many assume that this kind of training is not balanced. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Much of my business is private training for this very reason. I certainly treat each individual dog as AN INDIVIDUAL. I use MANY different methods to treat similar issues based on the INDIVIDUAL DOGS needs. That does not mean that I have to get physical with any of them. Why is that so hard to understand.
I put this in a different color with some caps in hopes that it will actually be read this time because to date it's clear that there is still misunderstanding...just in case somethinks that I'm yelling.:rolleyes:

I wish some of you would step into the shoes of those of us who do this for a living. We put value in continuing education even though the time and money that takes can be enormously expensive. We take the time to try to share that information and more often than not are not only taken for granted but totally dismissed.

Also understand that no one who loves dogs AND has lived through the many stages of evolution in dog training/behavior work, some which unfortunately included quite a bit of the physical stuff in our personal pasts, will refrain from comment when outrageous suggestions are being posted.

This forum is view by many more people than the ones who participate in a particular thread.

I think that it is completely irresponsible and dangerous to post suggestions that include ANY kind of physical punishment on a board like this. Even if I did resort BACK to this kind of training, I would NEVER post suggestions of that sort here which absolutely puts both dog and owner at risk.

You (Lhasa) totally misunderstood what I meant by "protect" your dog. I was referring to the fact that this advice was given with YOUR dog in mind. I wasn't suggesting that your dog is abused but rather the suggestion that you hang your dog by the collar and shake him is abusive. I re-read my post and can see where you'd get that but it was absolutely not what I meant.

You have recieved many good suggestions. I have to say though, I've noticed quite a bit of picking apart of those suggestions rather than any kind of appreciation.

If any of you who think I'm so nasty would look back at my older posts and the response to my sometimes long, time consuming, and normally in the real world considered at least somewhat valuable advice, you'd see why my fuse has shortened.

There are several of us here, some who no longer even try to help, who use these "balanced, yet gentler" methods every day and attempt to share them out of an honest love for all dogs. I help many people through PM and the hours of normally billable time that I spend here are starting to feel pretty worthless.

This can be at best a frustrating and dishearening experience, one that leaves me personally feeling lousy and has me rethinking why I waste the effort.

Oh and also, I am in the process of hiring someone to take over my business while I'm away for a few months. There will be no fighting/disagreements with her either. That part of my life lives here, and here alone.
The gal that I'm hiring is a student at the animal behavior college that I mentor for and is learning how to be successful without physical punishment too...
 
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#38
It is not abusive nor is it so far from the realm of normal that it is shocking. I also think it extremely rude that you guys think that anyone that uses 'negative ' training methods uses no positive. Just b/c I do corrections doesn't mean that I don't give tons and tons of rewards and positive motivations, in fact I try my hardest to do everything to keep the dog motivated with treats, toys, my voice and clapping and hand play so that I have to correct as little as possible.
Tons of dogs 'choke' themselves while walking on leashes all the time (dogs that have not been taught to properly walk on a leash) Some show dogs are held up by the leash so their front feet are close to coming off the ground (and are doing nothing to hold the dogs body weight) so they have that pretty gait ( don't get me wrong I love the show ring and hope to show dogs one day but it's true)
I agree 100% with making the dog work for everything it gets, hand feeding , not letting it up on the furniture but if that dog still goes to attack you better be ready for a physical correction so you don't get bit and the dog knows it's unacceptable.
Oh and about the wolf comment I made earlier, you can observe modern day dogs putting lesser dogs back in their place (letting them know it's unacceptable) if the lesser dog goes to attack them.
I LOVE animals to pieces and I couldn't wouldn't do anything to make dogs not love me back. Dogs understand physical punishment and physical praise, that's how they interact with each other and with us.
This is my last post on this subject, have a nice day.
 
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#39
It is not abusive nor is it so far from the realm of normal that it is shocking. I also think it extremely rude that you guys think that anyone that uses 'negative ' training methods uses no positive.
I absolutely never said that nor do I think that you use no positives. I don't believe that anyone thinks that or suggested it either.:confused: Just b/c I do corrections doesn't mean that I don't give tons and tons of rewards and positive motivations, in fact I try my hardest to do everything to keep the dog motivated with treats, toys, my voice and clapping and hand play so that I have to correct as little as possible.
Tons of dogs 'choke' themselves while walking on leashes all the time (dogs that have not been taught to properly walk on a leash) Some show dogs are held up by the leash so their front feet are close to coming off the ground (and are doing nothing to hold the dogs body weight) so they have that pretty gait ( don't get me wrong I love the show ring and hope to show dogs one day but it's true)Completely different than what you described. A dog certainly can close line themselves when learning leash manners. This does not compare to being held off of the ground and shaken by an angry human.
I agree 100% with making the dog work for everything it gets, hand feeding , not letting it up on the furniture but if that dog still goes to attack you better be ready for a physical correction so you don't get bit and the dog knows it's unacceptable.
Oh and about the wolf comment I made earlier, you can observe modern day dogs putting lesser dogs back in their place (letting them know it's unacceptable) if the lesser dog goes to attack them.
I LOVE animals to pieces and I couldn't wouldn't do anything to make dogs not love me back. Dogs understand physical punishment and physical praise, that's how they interact with each other and with us.
This is my last post on this subject, have a nice day.
No one ever suggested that you don't love your dogs.
 

Dekka

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#40
The only reason ppl correct dogs is cause they can ;) Positive training works on animals much bigger and scary than dogs. Try lifting and shaking a bear or killer whale cause it was acting agressive. In the current punative culture we live in, might makes right. It might feel satisfying to some to meet aggression with aggression, but that does not make it more effective. Dogs aren't humans.

Mystic Realm-I am sorry you have met such poor trainers. I suggest at sometime you go and watch a good behaviorualist at work, its truely awe inspiring. If what you are doing works for you so far, that is fine. But I hope any aggressive dog you have worked with never has a relapse (as dogs who have suppressed the tendencies are prone to do if not managed carefully)

As to the original poster, I guess it depends on whether you wish to eliminate the issue all the way, or stick a bandaid over the issue and hope it stays hidden for the rest of the dogs life (which it might, but then again it might not)

For those who like dog watching, notice how dogs interact on active submission (kinda like the military) and not on active aggression. That is what really helped me train and fix (and are currently happy family members in new house holds) 6 Jack Russell terriers who were on their way to be PTS due to aggression.
 

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