How to stop aggressive biting?

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#1
I'd like to hear anyone's ideas on how to stop this, from both the positive & negative sides of the camp. I got bit again tonight and I'm not a happy camper right now (although I'm not nearly as upset as I used to be LOL).

(sorry this is so long - I want to try to get a clear picture for you here)

Willie is my rescued street dog, classified as a biter, Shih Tzu mix with a split personality that I've had for about a year. He's around 2 yrs old, I think, which makes it even more urgent that I get this handled now.

For probably 98% of the time, Willie is a very happy, energetic, affectionate, funny & needy little guy, and he trains fairly easily, although he does have a stubborn streak. It's because of this side of him that I keep him.

For the other 2% of the time, he takes on the form of Cujo. He starts growling, snarling, and will bite over specific things we're working on, but he also does it out of nowhere, which is what happened tonight. I've tried confronting the behavoir twice; the first time I got bit very badly, the second time I had gloves on that saved my hands.

It's obvious that confrontation doesn't work with him, so I've taken a more passive "management" approach with him and it's worked well enough, but every couple of weeks he starts getting "testy" and it can escalate. He's been testy for the last couple of days, then he bit me tonight, which is the first time in about 6 months.

Here's how it goes.....

Willie, Pinkie & I were out in their (large) playyard after dinner just hanging out. I have a canopied bench swing out there and Willie loves to sit in it & swing with me. He was running around playing and every few minutes would run to the swing, jump up on it, and roll over on his back for me to pet his chest, then he'd be off again - this is his normal behavoir.

The 2nd time he came up, he flopped upside down over my leg so I could pet his chest & belly (a favorite position of his). As I was petting him, I felt some pieces of grass caught in his fur, so I got the first one and flicked it off the swing, then went back for the other piece I'd felt. I got it and moved my hand away from him to flick it off, just as I'd done the first time, when he suddenly lunged about a foot to bite my hand. Then he whirled around to face me, snarling and growling at me, and watching my hand out of the sides of his eyes. I had jerked it up and back at the shock of him biting me, but I wasn't moving it, and had laid it on the back of the swing. (He didn't break the skin, and it wasn't even that hard a bite, but it was definitely a bite.)

As I've been doing with him the last few months, I showed him my "mad" face, told him "NO" and "Get Down". That usually works, but not tonight. He refused to move and hunched down on the seat still snarling & growling at me. Every time I said anything or moved, his noises got louder. I felt pretty vulnerable at that point, with my whole side open to him, so I stood up, turned to face him, and repeated the "Get Down", and he finally did. He's been fine since then, but I'm not interacting much with him now.

I was actually surprised that he bit me without breaking my skin this time, and I think he did that intentionally. He's learned in the last few months how to mouthplay with me and is a very soft mouthplayer, immediately easing up when I tell him it's too much, or stopping and "doing kisses" when I tell him to. There's been a method to my madness with that game, and I think maybe it paid off tonight.

BUT, he still shouldn't be biting me in anger and I need to learn how to handle this. I really want to try to do this myself, so any & all ideas are welcome; if nothing works, I'll have to take him to a behavoirist. If that fails, I may have his canines removed - can you do that??? :confused:
 

Spiritus

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#2
If this incident happened exactly as described, this is what I would suggest. Note: I am NOT a behaviorist. I own dogs. Quite a few dogs. I teach puppy obedience classes, I attend behavior seminars when available. I like to learn. I like to observe.

Again, from what was described, I believe that this dog must NEVER be permitted on furniture of any kind. Ever. I believe that he is a dog that needs daily reminders of who is the leader of the pack. I believe that this is a dog that must work for everything; food, pets, outside, inside, everything. I believe that this is a dog that if you do want to hold him on your lap, YOU get on the floor; he should never, ever be invited up. I believe that this is a dog that you give an inch, and he will take a mile, or two, or three. You must be vigilant, you must be strong, you must treat him as if he were a large dog doing this behavior. Boot-camp. For life. If this was a German Shepherd or a Dalmation or a Dane doing this, your post would likely have a completely different tone. A dog is a dog is a dog.

Just my two cents on a slow Friday night.
 
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#3
Your dogs are gorgeous! :hail:

I fully agree that a dog is a dog is a dog, and biting should never be tolerated, no matter the size.

This is hard for me because I wasn't there as he was growing to handle this as it emerged - he came with this behavoir already in him. It's very frustrating trying to get this behavoir out of him, while at the same time trying to instill trust & respect in him. He definitely has trust issues, but he's not a fearful or timid dog.

Thank you for your input. I'll definitely take your advice into consideration, but I sure hope I don't have to work that hard for the rest of his life. lolol
 
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#4
With severe aggression what I would do is never have the dog on the furniture (getting dogs off of furniture is one of the most likely places where people will get bit, so it's best to keep them off right from the beginning)
Next I would make him drag a leash everytime you were near him (always supervised so he doesn't get caught on anything) when he goes for you or bites you grab the leash lift his front feet off the ground Have him as far away from you as your arms will reach) and give him 3 HARD shake from side to side shouting NO NO NO!! IF he is freaking out hold his front feet off the ground till he calms down then slowly release him down.
another method is to have a shake can with you (soup can with 10 pennies in it) and as soon as he goes to bite, or does bite give it 3 good shakes while screaming NO NO NO.
There are 2 things that I believe should be corrected harshly
Dominant Agression (could injure you, a child, someone else, or another dog or animal)
and Bolting (dog could run in front of traffic and be killed and such)
The dog must know that neither of these things will ever be permitted
 
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#5
Sounds to me that maybe in his previous life he was maybe abused with the hands. Good advice so far. Good luck.
 
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#6
Yes, I've thought the same thing about prior abuse. He's improved tremendously since I got him, but he still reacts very negatively if the hands surprise him or touch him wrong.
 

Dekka

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#7
Agression is caused by fear. Fear of what you have to figure out. Alpha dogs DO NOT behave in this manner. They don't need to. Forget about being alpha http://dogcentral.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4321516 (really good article on the urban myth of dogs wanting to take over the family home.)

As to the violent change in your dog I strongly encourage a visit to the vet, a change in behaviour like this may have a medical reason. If not then you can proceed to counter conditioning and training.

While you DO obviously need to work on this issue. I beg you, please don't scare/punish the dog for this behaviour. Fix it instead. (punishing only suppresses behaviour, never teaches) You can't effectively or reliably extinguish emotional behaviour by punishment, though you can suppress it-it is still there, and could resurface 10 times (or more) worse at any moment.

Try NILIF or nothing in life is free. It is extreemly effective, not confrontational, and safe for both human and dog. Treat your dogs aggressive behaviour as information, information that is saying something is upsetting your dog.
 

Brandyb

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#8
What is his body language lise when he gets "angry"? Can you describe it - ie. are his ears back or forward, is his mouth puckered or lips pulled back, does he expose his teeth, is his tail tucked, or held high, is the hair up on parts of his back, are is eyes wide, does he jump or startle at sudden movements?
It is not always fear that causes aggression, however, a lot of times it is the case. Because of what you describe, it sounds more like fear, but as some others have said, for now I would work with the NILF program - he gets nothing unless he works for it. Keep up with basic obedience and maybe start him on some more advanced training as well. As Spiritus said, it should be you who invites him to do things, not the other way around.
I would also consider having a behaviourist evaluate him in person ... you need someone to physically see what is going on so that they can better diagnose the issue. There is such thing as "rage syndrom" which is mostly seen in cockers and bullterriers, but can affect others breeds (though this seems to be very rare). Do take him to the vet too just to make sure there is no underlying medical issue that is causing him to act this way.
Good luck. :)
 
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#9
Thanks everyone for your input so far!! :hail: I really appreciate all the ideas - something has to work. He really is a sweetheart outside of these behavoir "breaks" so I'm determined to work thru them. In fact, if my health permitted, I'd probably get him into agility work because he has exceptional balance and ability to follow tactical direction.

Medical issues - We've been thru that and he doesn't have any ongoing issues. If it's as simple as he has an upset tummy or the runs I've learned to recognize it right away, plus he's finally learning to trust me when he's sick, so he's becoming less aggressive & coming to me for comfort.

Fear Aggression - There are times when I can definitely see his aggression as a reaction to some fear he has. Other times, tho, it pops up out of nowhere in the middle of something we've done a thousand times, like last night.

His Body Language - It's not fearful. When he first starts growling, his body freezes and he goes on "high alert" - you can see it in his eyes. Then he lifts his lips to show his teeth and starts snarling loudly, and if you proceed at that point, he snaps pretty quickly. He then goes back to step 1 and repeats as necessary (sounds like a recipe LOL). His ears and tail don't change position, no hair raising, and he doesn't react fearfully after he bites - it's more like he's going to "stand his ground".

Last night was different tho - no warning, just lunged & bit. Then he went into his warning & "standing his ground" routine.

Rage issues - DoberLuv brought the idea of this up in another thread I had going about him and it's something I think might be possible. Willie is mixed with something and I think it might be bulldog. His front legs & shoulders are the funniest things ever and, if I'd named him myself, I would've named him Popeye. From the back, he looks like a lamb - super straight & longish legs. From the front, it looks like he's a Bulldog, with the extra wide shoulders, elbows that turn out, and short legs that bow out, then turn in - makes for a pretty comical gait. I've had the vet check his front legs for soundness & old injuries and he's clear on both. Willie also has huge front feet & a much wider mouth (inside) than my Lhasa does, but I'm not sure if that's 'cus of the mixed breed or not.

I've read about Bulldog issues but not really studied them, so maybe I should do that and see if it applies here.

Keep the ideas flowing here! :)
 

Doberluv

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#10
I don't remember bringing up rage issues. LOL. Of course, my memory isn't very good.

But I agree with Dekka in that you must NEVER EVER EVER treat aggression with aggression. Please do not follow advice to shout, yank, shake or otherwise attack and frighten your dog. You'll make him positively neurotic and vastly more messed up than he already is.

This could be an inhereted temperament issue. It could be that he didn't have enough time with litter mates and never developed a healthy tolerance for frustration, a very significant part of early development that they learn from each other. And that may be why he gets that angry look. Normally, abuse brings on some kind of fearful body language.

I would recommend that you get a CERTIFIED behaviorist who uses benevolent methods to help your dog.

Absolutely forget this alpha/dominance nonsense. He couldn't possibly want to be the "leader" and act like that.

If he were my dog, I'd act very aloof for about 3 or 4 days, only interacting with him when absolutely necessary. No toys left out 24/7, no interaction with other dogs, no food set down in a bowl. He needs to have a little jump start on being starved for affection and his other needs. He needs to NEED you.

After those few days, I would offer attention and affection only when you're working with him, which you should do several times a day.....obedience. Make him then earn EVERYTHING he likes...anything he wants, he needs to do something in trade. Use his food for reinforcement for behavior you ask for or he gives voluntarily....which you like. All good things come through you and depend on his behavior.

If this seems to cause him a lot of stress, lighten up a little. But stop giving him gushing affection for free. Instead of patting him, groom him with a soft brush. Introduce some of the things you think cause him a little bit of irritation and frustration....but gradually and make them VERY rewarding. But, be careful not to do anything abruptly that you think will cause him to bite. You don't want him to think that works. Don't react. If he growls, wait until he's quiet to back off. Try associating the things he might not like you doing with high value treats but don't reinforce him if he growls or bites.

Those are some of my ideas until you locate a behaviorist to come and personally evaluate your dog. It is always difficult to know for sure what's going on when no one can see the whole picture. You might ask Dr2little too. She probably has more and better ideas.
 
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#13
If it is fear based then absolutely you need to deal with it in a different way but for dominant related agression you can pussy foot around. The dog needs to know that that is not acceptable, Do you think that in the wild if a wolf was acting aggressive to a higher ranking wolf that the higher wolf wouldn't put the dog in it's place with physical force? And that would be with teeth to the neck not just a few shakes with a collar.
 
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#14
If it is fear based then absolutely you need to deal with it in a different way but for dominant related agression you can pussy foot around. The dog needs to know that that is not acceptable, Do you think that in the wild if a wolf was acting aggressive to a higher ranking wolf that the higher wolf wouldn't put the dog in it's place with physical force? And that would be with teeth to the neck not just a few shakes with a collar.
First, the comparison of dogs/wolves is not only a stretch but has been proven to be ineffective and dangerous for both dog and human.

Using physical methods to treat aggression of ANY kind is simply not wise. I completely agree that this dog needs the same rules and expectations as a large dog displaying these types of behaviors but leadership is simply not safely or effectively taught by proving who is physically stronger.

Control of resources is the first step (of course after health issues are ruled out). Then desensitizing and counterconditioning is necessary so that you target the triggers.

Avoiding confrontation is necessary until the new rules are established and then the triggers can be addressed.

The dominance thing just gets beat to death and is really most responsible for "jump the gun" euthanasias and many of the bite cases that I go to.

I really wish that people would quit using the dominance theory to explain/blame every scenario on. While there are absolutely dominant behaviors that dogs display, even the way that they're currently dealt with has changed dramatically since the OLD dominance theory was concocted.
 

Doberluv

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#15
but for dominant related agression you can pussy foot around. The dog needs to know that that is not acceptable, Do you think that in the wild if a wolf was acting aggressive to a higher ranking wolf that the higher wolf wouldn't put the dog in it's place with physical force? And that would be with teeth to the neck not just a few shakes with a collar.
Mystic, unfortunately it's not that simple and that isn't how it works with dog-human relationships and domestic dog behavior. Behavioral scientists and all the work and research that goes on with this tells us that that is not how to deal with aggression issues. From the description, this does not sound like a dominance issue anyhow. It sounds like a dog who needs counter conditioning to accept and tolerate small irritants. Aversives, such as described, at best will only buy temporary supression of the behavior. The underlying issue is never dealt with this way. They will not teach the dog to actually welcome the small irritations, which is what behaviorists can accomplish with other means.

Being a leader does NOT include physical force, fear, intimidation or other attacks on dog. A good leader controls resources and leads benevolently. Please do more research into behavior before giving advice which could be dangerous for owners and could really damage a dog. If this were a bigger dog like a Doberman and someone shook him up by the scruff, yelled at him, he could rip her face off. And make the dog even more defensive and aggressive. You just don't do that stuff to dogs. Period.
 

Doberluv

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#16
Missed your great post Doc while I was typing away. I wish people would learn to get off this dominance stuff. It's just hardly ever applicable to the many behaviors people attribute it to. IMO. Most things can be solved by training and conditioning etc.
 
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#18
With severe aggression what I would do is never have the dog on the furniture (getting dogs off of furniture is one of the most likely places where people will get bit, so it's best to keep them off right from the beginning)
Next I would make him drag a leash everytime you were near him (always supervised so he doesn't get caught on anything) when he goes for you or bites you grab the leash lift his front feet off the ground Have him as far away from you as your arms will reach) and give him 3 HARD shake from side to side shouting NO NO NO!! IF he is freaking out hold his front feet off the ground till he calms down then slowly release him down.
another method is to have a shake can with you (soup can with 10 pennies in it) and as soon as he goes to bite, or does bite give it 3 good shakes while screaming NO NO NO.
There are 2 things that I believe should be corrected harshly
Dominant Agression (could injure you, a child, someone else, or another dog or animal)
and Bolting (dog could run in front of traffic and be killed and such)
The dog must know that neither of these things will ever be permitted
What kind of a collar would the dog be wearing when you hold him off of the ground and shake him from side to side?
 
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#20
Please - I asked for ALL input from both positive & negative sides of the camp - without judgment. I'm well aware of the differences of opinions on both sides. I'm middle of the road and believe by gathering all the info I can, I'll find the answer somewhere in the middle.

Hypothyroid can cause aggression/temperament changes. A specialized blood test needs to be run and sent to an OFA approved lab.
Now I never thought of this one and will find out if they've tested for it in their routine blood work. Great idea - thanks!!
 

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