how rough is too rough??

[D&Co]

my maniacs are 6/7 months old littermates male and female - they play very rough and it never really stops unless they are training, they don't fight per se, guessing as hormones kick in they will have a bit more respect for each other? the female will be spayed on her second heat cycle which may also help, i do not really intervene unless they play in the house.

they get a lot of excercise and a very fit so it is not a case of no excercise.

should i tone them down some?

 

[JennSLK]

You need to limit thier time together. You may end up with two pups who are hard to deal with because the are way to attached to eachother. Raising littermates is never advisable

 

[D&Co]

cheers, as i do more training with their age they have longer times apart, they will be together for life tho so i have to manage what i have to manage.

 

[D&Co]

here is a typical roughouse session, it never really stops, the mother joined in this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-YsAi4Vo8w&feature=youtu.be

 

[BostonBanker]

Do they ever interact with dogs outside their 'family'? Alone or together? If so, do they behave the same?

 

[sassafras]

Maisy and Squash can get pretty rough at times, and there are a couple of things I look for.

One, are they trading off roles? So if they're chasing or playing keep away, is one dog always the chaser and one the chasee, or do they swap? If they're wrestling, is one dog always "on top" or do things ebb and flow between the dogs? If the dogs get in a rut where they are ALWAYS in one role or the other I will interrupt.

Two, if they take a break - either a natural break in play or one told the other to back off for a minute - do both dogs come back to play. Particularly, if one dog told the other off, does THAT dog freely come back to engage in play, or are they getting harassed? If it's the latter, I interrupt.

Third... I don't know how to explain this very well but there is an audible and visible shift in the tone of their play if things are about to get too over the top, and I interrupt if I hear/see it.

 

[Saeleofu]

Maisy and Squash can get pretty rough at times, and there are a couple of things I look for.

One, are they trading off roles? So if they're chasing or playing keep away, is one dog always the chaser and one the chasee, or do they swap? If they're wrestling, is one dog always "on top" or do things ebb and flow between the dogs? If the dogs get in a rut where they are ALWAYS in one role or the other I will interrupt.

Two, if they take a break - either a natural break in play or one told the other to back off for a minute - do both dogs come back to play. Particularly, if one dog told the other off, does THAT dog freely come back to engage in play, or are they getting harassed? If it's the latter, I interrupt.

Third... I don't know how to explain this very well but there is an audible and visible shift in the tone of their play if things are about to get too over the top, and I interrupt if I hear/see it.

Pretty much this. My dogs can get VERY rough, but so long as they're both having fun, I let them continue.

 

[release the hounds]

I tend to think anything beyond some playful spanking and hair pulling is too much... oh wait, this isn't that kind of thread?

 

[kaykay21]

I tend to think anything beyond some playful spanking and hair pulling is too much... oh wait, this isn't that kind of thread?

:rofl1:

 

[D&Co]

thanks for info all, good food for thought.

and to the question re how they respond to outside dogs - not good.

 

[BostonBanker]

Is the mother the lighter merle without the white on the chest?

Honestly - I wouldn't be okay with that play from my dogs, and I'm pretty tolerant of my dogs playing rough. It has that edge to it where I expect one dog to really lay into the other at any second; having said that the dog I see that most from is the one without the white on the chest - which I'm guessing is Mom? It would worry me more if that was one of the puppies. That just doesn't look like "six month old puppy" play to me.

Will they ever be around other dogs? If so, I'd be working really, really hard to teach them better dog skills ASAP. 1/10th of that intensity of play would earn them a serious correction from my dog. I'd expect that behavior to start a massive fight if outside dogs were around, even if your two were just "playing" with each other.

 

[D&Co]

all except the sable gsd has a white chest? the mom's is the fat one.

i appreciatte yr concern and comments, you have to figure in the context tho which you don't know, agree with you broadly and as a responsible dog owner these dogs will never for their natural life be exposed to strange dogs off leash, the mother has zero tolerance for strange dogs, she has hunted several wild dogs that are not pure-bred, they are mixed with local hunting dogs and stock dogs so they have the coloration of random mutts basically.

these pups just because i have learned to enjoy formal training stuff are being socialised one at a time on leash with pets at shows etc. had about four sessions and they are doing better but still will not accept or tolerate approach by a strange dog or any person except me. they improved a long way in these sessions and best result i got was one pup shoved it's nose up an very stable old labs butt and had a look on his face like - hmm, that was quiet interesting actually - it was a great old lab and i thanked the owner for setting it up and taking the risk.

so yeah, going to work on it only becuase i want to take these pups a bit further than what they are bred and used for, but it will always be a management issue that i have to take full responsibility for and deal with the consequences like a man.

 

[crazedACD]

I'm worried that since these pups are only 7 months or so, once they mature (usually beyond a year) something like this might escalate into a more full-blown fight. If it were my dogs I'd probably interject and redirect them onto something else. You don't really want to step in and yell, but rather redirecting to keep them out of that aggressing state of mind.

 

[D&Co]

thanks for comment, the fact i posted indicates i had concerns and will work to lower the tone of the play some.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I agree with the others who are a little concerned about the level of play. The video looked to me like three dogs who are quite lacking in social skills with other dogs, and your following posts do confirm that. I don't think it's beyond help, though, I believe that those puppies could learn appropriate behavior with other dogs and would be able to play with other dogs. But there are just a few problems that crop up right now:

1. The dogs' age - they are basically "teenagers" with a lot of hormones kicking in. They are also beginning to see themselves as "grown-ups", but still lack a LOT of mental maturity. At this age, even the most social dogs can be difficult around other dogs.

2. The dogs' genetic history - you are right to be cautious with them around other dogs, based on the mother's history with other dogs. You may also keep in mind that the mother may not be a very good role model for the puppies to be learning about dog interactions as she is not good at it herself. I'd suggest limiting the amount and type of play the puppies are allowed to engage in with the mother; not to say they can't be around her at all, but keep the play down to a minimum.

I think you are right to limit the off-leash play the dogs get with outside dogs at this point, and if you make the choice to just avoid the problem altogether, that may also be a good solution. But if your dogs are going to be around other dogs, even on leash, they do need to learn better social interactions with other dogs, and one of the best ways to teach this is with off-leash play.

I would suggest reading the book "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons; the tips in the book will help you with on-leash interactions and will help you learn how to train your dogs to be appropriate around other dogs, which is a great starting point. The sooner you begin this training, the better.

If you do want to work on off-leash play, I'd suggest finding a trainer with a good neutral dog that can help you learn what is appropriate with your dogs. Because of the dogs' age, I might recommend just working on leash (with "Click to Calm") for the next year or so, and when the dogs are fully mature (18-24 months old) the off-leash play might become a lot easier. Hard to say for sure, though, so I would definitely defer to the trainer you choose to give her own advice.

 

[D&Co]

lizzy, thanks for comments and great advice. i am stuck between two worlds at the moment and my instincts say it is a change for the best to do many of things mentioned, my own inertia and history suggests otherwise.

but yes i want these pups to be more part of the mainstream world, they don't need to as they got evrything they will ever need inside the pack unit.

thanks for the insights, suggestions and challenging thoughts.

will post progress vids of interaction with strange dogs whenever/ if ever i get there.

cheers

eta; finding a stable neutral mature dog is evidently not the simple task i thought it would be, thought i would find many at obed & show venues, seems a lot of these dogs i seen may put in great performances on the field, off-field so many seem to have all sorts of crate aggression/leash aggresion etc issues, i was quiet shocked to see this is so common amongst trained/titled dogs.

i think i have as much chance finding stable, passive, non reactive pets as untrained dogs in peoples back yards??

this stuff is tough.

 

[lizzybeth727]

eta; finding a stable neutral mature dog is evidently not the simple task i thought it would be, thought i would find many at obed & show venues, seems a lot of these dogs i seen may put in great performances on the field, off-field so many seem to have all sorts of crate aggression/leash aggresion etc issues, i was quiet shocked to see this is so common amongst trained/titled dogs.

i think i have as much chance finding stable, passive, non reactive pets as untrained dogs in peoples back yards??

this stuff is tough.

People in show venues (sports, obedience, etc.) generally want dogs that are either:

1.) interesting, big personality, have lots of opinions ;
2.) a "project dog," one they get to test their training skills; or
3.) a dog that's simply too energetic and/or out of control, with a handler who can't recognize the problem;

Of course not all handlers are like this, but it is often difficult to find a calm, neutral dog if you're looking in show/sports venues. Some of the most amazing neutral dogs I know are owned by people who don't have a clue how special their dog is.

But that's also why I suggested contacting a professional trainer. Many professionals have a designated neutral dog that helps them with clients like this. If they don't have one of their own, they often have clients with dogs that they can talk into volunteering to help as well. I used to do this kind of work as a professional trainer myself, and in addition to using my own dog, I also borrowed my friend's dog when the situation was right.

 

[D&Co]

interesting take on it, dunno what i was expecting, something like all that fancy training actually spilled over to when the dogs were not just on the training field - but thinking about it when they were not on the field or going to or from it they were in crates??

 

[release the hounds]

if the show//working dogs you're seeing don't have "normal" lifestyle behaviors from all their "fancy" training, it's most likely because the owners never ask or work for that type of behavior.

i have some pretty drivey dogs, I train with others that have been at the top at French Ring, IPO and Mondio Ring. I don't think there is any doubt on the intensity or drive of those dogs. There are those who's dogs are amazing on the field and a royal pain off, mostly because the only place they're asked to be anything is on the field and then shuffled off to a crate or kennel for most of their life.

And then there are those that do incorporate their dogs into their everyday life. There are still dogs in those situations that are still a PITA, but the majority are fine, stable cool dogs in all sorts of settings off the training field. I go from getting eaten by dogs, to sitting and eating pizza with them 15 minutes later watching football and they're cool as can be. It just takes work. A lot just want to put the work on the field and end there.

 

[D&Co]

Poor dogs, and when their done competing (make back to back litters for a few years possibly...then?) or they aren't naturally gifted enough then....???

i guess we are all either someone who loves their dog/s and wants to do something with it/them based on what the dog enjoys and those that love the sport/competition and need a dog to do it with.