Guilt

Beanie said:
So nobody said you don't need breeders, huh?

I don't know why it's somebody else's decision if somebody "needs" a dog from a breeder or not. If they want a dog from a breeder, that is their business. The problem is - do they keep it?
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Lol thank you.

I want regular pet dogs. I can absolutely find that in a shelter. But I choose to go to a breeder.
 
I don't want people to not go to breeders. My next dog is going to be from a breeder. I want people to stop acting like adopting a rescue dog is only for bleeding hearts who clean up others' messes.

And to stop referring to breeder vs rescue as a war, but that's because I find it so incredibly obnoxious. It's fine if you don't care about individual dogs in shelters, but some of us do, and it really hurts that hardcore breeder people want the general public to turn away from shelters and dislike them. You are never going to get people to like responsible breeders if the responsible breeders make it clear that they don't care about shelter dogs.
 
Beanie said:
So nobody said you don't need breeders, huh?

I don't know why it's somebody else's decision if somebody "needs" a dog from a breeder or not. If they want a dog from a breeder, that is their business. The problem is - do they keep it?
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This. So much this. If someone wants "just" a pet dog, who is to say that them going to a reputable breeder isn't a good thing? Why does someone have to have specific needs for a dog in order for it to be "okay" for them to go to a breeder vs. adopting a dog?

Many people aren't comfortable with the unknown of a shelter dog. They want evidence of lineage, health testing, want to meet parents of puppies, etc. You just don't get that with a shelter dog, regardless of how nice they may be (and yes, I've met some lovely shelter dogs over the years). My entire family is this way. They are people who "just" want a pet, they aren't going to do anything special with said dog. None of them will ever adopt a dog, they just aren't comfortable with it. And that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that.

FWIW, having been involved in both the rescue world (by photographing over 1,000 shelter/private rescue dogs over the years) as well as the purebred dog world, I don't feel guilty at all about getting 2 of my dogs from breeders, and will continue to do so from here on out.

When I got Sako, I got a ton of backlash from my rescue "friends". Got called all kinds of names, whatever. It's always been interesting to me to see how much hate many rescue people have toward breeders or people who get their dogs from breeders. I have distanced myself from pretty much all of them. I feel like I do my part to help dogs in need by photographing them to help them find homes. That's enough for me, and it allows me to keep most of the people at arms length.
 
Who said it's only for bleeding hearts? I must have missed where breeders want people to turn away from shelters? I guess most breeders I know well breed for themselves, not the general public. Most are also involved in rescue, too.
 
It is obnoxious, especially when others think people don't care about individual dogs in shelters. You can have a dog from a breeder and still care. Just like you can love animals and eat meat, you can find abortion immoral and allow a woman to have that choice, you can be a republican and not support a church, you can be a democrat and own guns. People can be all sorts of things besides what people want to label them.
 
Picklepaige said:
I don't want people to not go to breeders. My next dog is going to be from a breeder. I want people to stop acting like adopting a rescue dog is only for bleeding hearts who clean up others' messes.

And to stop referring to breeder vs rescue as a war, but that's because I find it so incredibly obnoxious. It's fine if you don't care about individual dogs in shelters, but some of us do, and it really hurts that hardcore breeder people want the general public to turn away from shelters and dislike them. You are never going to get people to like responsible breeders if the responsible breeders make it clear that they don't care about shelter dogs.
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If the majority of rescue people changed their attitude toward others, it wouldn't be such a problem. Mention getting a dog from a breeder around most rescuers and you'll get scowled at, talked down to, etc., and that's being tame.

Hell, even their attitude toward potential adopters or foster homes needs to change. I used to foster for a well known Pit Bull rescue near me. When I got Sako, they dropped me from their foster list because of it. So they lost a great (IMO) foster home that was willing to take in puppies all because they couldn't handle the fact that I went to a breeder for a dog. Oh well, their loss.

Most breeders that I know are all involved in rescue in some way, most for their particular breed. My friends breeder (Rotties) actually founded one of the largest Rottweiler rescues on the east coast and is very much involved with that. Many of my Amstaff breeders & friends are actively involved in helping to pull any Amstaffs that may end up in shelters.
 
There is definitely an underlying current that if you're educated and want a good dog/'specific thing' you go to a breeder. If you don't care then you go to rescue. If you bring up that there are lots of great rescue dogs out there then you're some sort of crazy AR rescue nut or are just trying to rub it in their faces.

There is also a lot of 'they' and 'most rescuers' in this thread. Lots of generalizations there about 'rescue people'.

I have had had breeder dogs the whole time I was involved in rescue. It's never been a problem at all. It's like I said before there are crazies on both sides.

Most breeders I know of aren't involved in rescue. A few are but most?
 
Picklepaige said:
And to stop referring to breeder vs rescue as a war, but that's because I find it so incredibly obnoxious.
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But don't you see how successful the ARists have been at making it one? at pitting people against each other - making rescue people feel looked down on, making responsible breeders feel like they are being blamed for dogs in a shelter that aren't theirs (and if they didn't care about shelter dogs, they wouldn't care about being blamed for it), at making other people appoint themselves judge if somebody needs a rescue or a breeder dog - so on and so forth. You can't adopt a dog if you don't have a fenced in yard. Well why do you need a breeder, you just want a PET (As though being a pet is somehow unimportant.) No, you have an apartment so no adopted dog for you. And the whole time the anti-breeder stuff has this very anti-shelter stuff going along with it. Oh all you want is a pet so you get the REJECT pile in the shelter, but SERIOUS people, well they should go to breeders. Hence why people on this forum with adopted sport dogs get weird looks, because even supposedly pro-shelter people are somehow assigning shelter dogs a second class citizen label.
Honestly this thread is full of evidence of this. I honestly don't think most people notice this stuff has crept under their skin and into their rhetoric. And if everybody is busy fighting amongst each other, they won't be ready when the time comes to stand together and say "we care about DOGS." people are too busy being in pissing matches about if people should feel guilty or not to pay attention to actually solving the problem.


It might be idealistic and oversimplified to say if you stop the lack of responsibility you stop overpopulation, but doesn't every major societal battle? "Just treat humans as humans regardless of their skin color." "Don't kill people for being a different religion than you." "Women and men are equal." Well God, that is just so simple, but who would ever do that? And just because we haven't fully won those battles yet doesn't mean the pursuit of it is wrong or doomed.
Teach people a new way. Change the future. If you bring a life into this world, take care of it. Simple... But worth teaching in my opinion.
 
There are levels of involvement in rescue. For some having a rescue dog is involvement enough. For others it's an every day thing or they foster. Some people simply donate money. Most breeders I know are at least falling somewhere within this. I know I am supposed to get a phone call if any papillon shows up at the local shelter. I offer a bounty if any of mine owned or sold show up at a shelter.

That said I am not a volunteer with a rescue of any kind right now. I will not foster dogs until they start testing for brucellosis and stop importing disease from places before sending dogs out to peoples homes.
 
One thing I get hung up on is that if everyone decides that they 'need' a breeder dog then what happens to the dogs in shelters? Is it a too bad so sad? Not our (dog peoples') problem? Is it really so bad to promote the rescues and point out that you actually can find a lot of various types of dogs that fit lots of lifestyles there and maybe more people should/could consider them?

I have honestly not run into the 'rescues are inferior' thing outside of the dog world/dog shows/dog forums. Is it outright stated most the time? No. Is it alluded to a lot? Yes. I also think this idea that there 'is no such thing as rescue, you just buy dogs from different places' and 'rescuing dogs/pulling from shelters doesn't help- it's all about personal responsibility' is damaging.

I have been looking for the numbers on the shelter I got Hank from but can't find them at the moment. I remember intake not changing too much over the years but the live release did change a lot.
 
iriskai said:
Call it 'adopting', 'rescuing' whatever, but in my opinion, unless you actually rescued the dog from a life threatening situation, you didn't actually rescue it. It completely irks me when people make a point to say they have a 'rescue -insert breed of dog here-'. Would they also introduce an adopted child that way? "This is Billy, we bred him ourselves, and this is Samantha, she's a rescue.".

If you want to buy a dog from a carefully chosen breeder, buy a dog from the breeder instead of buying it from the shelter (you gave the shelter money, they gave you a dog, you bought it no matter what feel good label you adhere to it). If you want to buy a new car when there are plenty of used models available, buy a new car. If you want to have a child biologically instead of adopting, get to it. Weird set of comparisons, but yeah. No need to cookie cutter situations.
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too short
 
To expand: this idea that rescue is only a 'feel good label' and not actually doing any real good. If that's not what you meant, it was insinuated.
 
Laurelin said:
To expand: this idea that rescue is only a 'feel good label' and not actually doing any real good. If that's not what you meant, it was insinuated.
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Or what you assumed I meant. My point in that particular post, aside from adoption and a rescue not necessarily being the same in my view of the definitions, is that unfortunately there ARE people who use the label to try to condemn anyone who does anything other than go to a shelter. I'm not belittling the need for either rescue or adoption, nor trying to pretend they don't exist.
 
Oh yes, I have a huge problem with the way "non-dog" folks talk about breeders. But I have just as big a problem with the way "dog folk" talk about rescues. The reason I'm not talking about the breeder bashing? Because it's preaching to the choir here.

I will never feel guilty for being proud of my rescue dog, and I will never feel guilty for feeling like a great person because I might have very well saved his life, even though it's a fantastic trend in the dog community to say that feeling good for rescuing a dog is an awful thing and you should feel ashamed. Why does caring about homeless dogs make someone an AR nut? Why is it a bad thing for people like me to not only want owners to be responsible and not turn their dogs into shelters, but for dogs who are already in shelters to get out alive? What do the "shelters suck real dog people should buy from breeders" people want to happen to the dogs who are in super high kill "euthanizing entire litters of puppies" southern shelters?

And likewise:

You should never feel guilty for having a dog from a breeder. You should be proud that you are helping to continue great bloodlines and preserve the purebred dog. It's a fantastic trend in the general public to say that enjoying your well bred dog is an awful thing and you should feel ashamed. Why does wanting to have predictable traits make someone a dog hater? Why is it a bad thing for people like me to not only want a dog from health tested parents, but to continue the betterment of my favorite breed? What do "don't breed and buy while shelter pets die" people want to happen to the healthy population of dogs being bred by responsible breeders?

It goes both ways. Both sides need to chill out and realize that we all love dogs.
 
Again I think it probably depends on area, but I think the evidence of people feeling like rescues are trouble or bad is when you take a dog who is shy or isn't obsessed with strangers, and people go "ohhh, is she a rescue???" It has been many years since I had somebody outright tell me "shelter dogs have issues." I wouldn't take very kindly to it given how the majority of my training clients are pit mixes from the shelter and I haven't met a bad one yet, so it's possible people don't volunteer that kind of commentary to me given my work history..?
On the flipside, though, when people talk about their dogs these days, they are often VERY quick to tell me they rescued (or adopted from a shelter) their dog. If you don't know that somebody's dog is a rescue within the first five minutes of having met their dog, it wasn't. And they are often very quick to give me a side-eye if I say anything about my dogs being purchased from a breeder. God forbid anybody find out Payton is intact and part of a breeding program.
But that is just locally, and it's not "dog people" as in the kind of crazy people who sign up on dog forums or Facebook groups LOL - it is "people who have dogs." Most "dog people" I know locally actually don't bring origins up unless you ask...

And also again, I think if you fix the problem of personal responsibility, you won't have to worry about where all the shelter dogs will go if people all decided to utilize responsible breeders. Because there would no longer be an issue with overpopulation. I'm a fan of treating the disease, not the symptom.
If in a perfect world tomorrow everybody wakes up and says NO MORE DUMPING DOGS AT THE SHELTERS and only uses responsible breeders from there on out, I think you would see a lot of people adopting the remaining dogs to "end" the problem. Probably a lot of breed people.

Laurelin said:
Is it really so bad to promote the rescues and point out that you actually can find a lot of various types of dogs that fit lots of lifestyles there and maybe more people should/could consider them?
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Nothing wrong with "you can get a great dog in a shelter, you should consider that," something wrong with "you don't need a breeder because you can get a great dog in a shelter. Don't go to a breeder. Seriously. You're not cool enough for a breeder dog. Also you only want a pet, those are lame, you don't need a breeder for anything. No breeder. Shelter only."

Also nothing wrong with "you might look into breeders of X-breed because that sounds like the right kind of dog for you!" and something wrong with "UGH shelter dogs are SO gross and defective you really need a breeder, why would you want somebody else's trash??"


You CAN talk about the benefits of one without having to denigrate the other. I think BostonBanker does a good job of that whenever this subject comes up, and it of course has come up repeatedly on this forum. She loves her dogs and has done amazing things with them and now she is looking for something different, and no decision she has made with any of her dogs, nor with her future dogs, is wrong. See also what Sass said a few pages back, I think it's wonderfully put.

But I really honestly think the problem is this sort of thing has gone on so long and been forced into such an "us versus them" act, people are reactive and respond with what they THINK people are going to say or how they THINK somebody feels.


As to preaching to the choir here on breeder bashing, I don't think so, but maybe I've just been here too long.
Also, caring about shelter dogs doesn't make someone an AR nut. Because AR nuts don't actually care about shelter dogs.
 
Bostonbanker and Sass both went the 'right' direction though as far as dog people tend to be concerned. ;) There is this idea in dog sports especially that it's cool to start out with the rescued family pet but then you 'upgrade' to a breeder or even 'upgrade' to the right breed. I think if Sass of BB went BACK to a rescue after getting their right breed/breeder dogs they'd get some comments. If it's not abundantly clear enough I have no problems with anyone choosing to get a breeder dog.

And honestly I am not sure how I have said anything bad about breeders at all in this thread? I have really gone back and re-read and I don't see anything at all? People are reading into things that aren't there.

As far as not hearing the thought that rescue dogs aren't as good... well... you don't have a shelter dog so it probably doesn't come up often? Not meaning snark in that it's just I never heard it till people asked where my next dog was coming from and I said 'I dunno, thinking about getting a rescue' THAT's when you hear it. I never heard it at all with Summer or Mia.

Fixing the origin of the problem is ideal but it will take time if ever happening. There is an interim of dogs that are going to be in shelters. That's an unescapable (inescapable?) fact. As nice as it is to be idealistic there's still these dogs we have to deal with one way or another...
 
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I just wrote up the longest post in the history of my life, and realized it was just rehashing everything yet again. I've said my piece (peace?) on the topic a dozen times. Mostly I'm just happy that Beanie thinks I'm reasonable about the topic! It is emotional and personal, and at one point I left the forum for several months because I was so hurt by all the rescue bashing by a few members.

Maybe I'm finally growing up!
 
So it seems to me that no matter what you do, you're wrong.

You'll only have breeder dogs? You don't really care about dogs because you won't consider a rescue. Shame on you.

You'll only rescue? You're a bleeding heart who has to clean up other people problems. You're only benefiting one dog, not dogs as a whole. Shame on you.

You rescued then went to a breeder? Obviously your rescue wasn't good enough for you. Shame on you.

You went to a breeder and then rescued? Obviously the bleeding hearts got to you and you aren't serious about your dogs. Shame on you.

No one here has said that no one should rescue, only that they personally wouldn't. No one has said that no one should ever go to a breeder, only that they wouldn't. Maybe everyone would be happier if more people minded their own business*

*Disclaimer- I am not talking about debated this within a thread. I'm talking about both sides bashing the other out in real life. I've heard both (though more on the rescue side. This might change if we get more serious about agility). Compliment the dog, and do your best for it, regardless of where it came from.
 
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