Guilt

[release the hounds]

I have a rescue Australian Cattle Dog. Isn't she just wonderful?

I think this is one of the silliest posts I've seen. To start off, I've never heard anyone introduce their dog as a rescue. It usually comes up that Fable is a rescue when someone asks what breed she is and I reply that she's a cattle dog mix. And then they ask "is she a rescue?" And so what if people do introduce their dog as a rescue? Where's the harm in that? I find that people like to know where other peoples' dogs come from. It makes good conversation.

And you do not "buy" dogs from shelters and rescues. You adopt them. These organizations (or at least the real, legitimate ones) use the adoption fees to fund the care of the other dogs. The rescue I volunteer for would have gone under several years ago if they didn't charge adoption fees. The fees also help to ensure the adopters are committed financially to their new dogs.

Adopting/Rescuing dogs is completely different from buying breeder dogs. You are saving a life when you rescue/adopt because that's one more dog that isn't euthanized and one more open kennel for a new dog to stay in. You're not saving a life when you buy a breeder dog.

Also, comparing getting a dog to adopting a child or buying a car doesn't make any sense. Those are completely different scenarios with so many different factors to consider in each of them. Just because you wouldn't introduce your child as adopted doesn't mean it's bad that you introduce your dog as a rescue. Children can understand what you say in conversation, dogs can't.

I like to tell people that my dog is a rescue to let them know that they can get good dogs from a rescue/shelter situation. A lot of people think that rescues are damaged goods, when that really isn't the case. But the fact that I tell people that Fable is a rescue doesn't mean that I'm shaming breeders or think they're bad.

people have different meanings, myself included. Rescue denotes something to me. Going to shelter and adopting a dog denotes something else. It's not silly its different. I don't consider a "rescue" that uses FOSTER families saving lives. They're helping dogs. I've done it too, and I've called myself nothing. I'm not a rescuer or a fosterer. I just love dogs. I didn't take a rehoming fee, I didn't need money to apply to the care I gave them. There are plenty of "rescues" that are nothing more than a dog re-sale store using language to evoke emotions. It's not "silly" as you call it, it's real.

 

[Laurelin]

Well I've had a lot of issues with my breeder dogs. To be honest, I know a lot of people with issues in their breeder dogs. Moreso than rescue dogs. Well- catastrophic issues like really big health problems I've seen more in breeder dogs. I also know more breeder dogs so there's that.

To me these days most dogs are just dogs. With varying issues, Most are pretty normal.

I've struck out a lot. With multiple breeders and 2 breeds. I got a bit exhausted by it to be honest. Didn't really see the point in spending $1500 again on a dog with major issues that couldn't do what I wanted.

I also knew I had an empty spot for a fourth dog if Hank was just not going to be my thing. So far he is a great dog. Will he be a superstar agility dog? Probably not. But I just wanted a dog to work and play. Hopefully we can do that for a long time. I'll get back to you on that. He's pretty fun so far.

I'll probably go breeder again next. Can't decide if I want to spend big bucks again or just find some working stockdog litter for cheap and buy there. I'm willing to try again.

I like it better in theory. In theory it makes sense. It's just never panned out for me.

 

[SpaceMutt]

I said it in the other thread too, I don't feel guilty.

Of course my breeder puppy could turn out totally different than I expect, but I think the chances of that happening are relatively low. I have met this puppy's mother, father, aunts, uncles, siblings, half siblings. I've seen where she's grown up. I get the knowledge that she's been on different surfaces, taken to sport classes already (to hang out with people on the sidelines, not to train of course), cuddled with multiple children and elderly people. I know she's already been to the vet for her hearing testing and been given a great first vet visit. I know her breeder has played tug with her and evaluated her drive, and that at least two other breeders have also evaluated the litter for temperament. She's coming to me with her crate training foundations already in place, detailed info on her lines, advice on how to set her up for success in multiple venues, and overall just heaps and heaps of lifetime support from a very passionate and knowledgable breeder.

I don't regret Astro but he was more of a gamble and I don't feel bad at not making that decision again.

 

[Picklepaige]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I think it's obnoxious that people "in the dog world" are allowed to feel proud and happy for supporting a good breeder, and can talk about their dog being from good lines as much as they want, but if a person feels proud and happy about rescuing their dog from being put to sleep, they are bleeding hearts and animal rights activists who think they are better than everyone else.

I feel good that I adopted Finn. Especially now that I work at the animal shelter I adopted him from, I am so so thankful that he didn't end up thrown in the dumpster like so many other dogs there. He is a wonderful dog; no health issues whatsoever, fantastic temperament, and probably good structure, but I'm not an expert on that.

My next dog will be from a breeder, but I will always foster as well.

 

[iriskai]

Wow, managed to set off a couple people, sorry about that. I don't think I got my point across all that well. Either that or a line or two of what I typed was overblown and my overall thoughts buried under wordiness. Either way, I think a couple people here have misunderstood my overall mindset. Apologies if I didn't translate that very well.

First off, I suppose I read too much into verbiage and maybe it doesn't matter to some, but rescue is not the same as adoption to me. Maybe not what everyone thinks, but we're all entitled to our own! I'd never think to bring that up in a random interaction when talking about someone's gorgeous rescue dog, and I'm definitely NOT downplaying the need for dogs to be pulled from shelters, but I figured since the discussion was open and the Chaz community generally a dog-educated one, we could have differing opinions without blowing anything out of proportion.

I'll NEVER "insist there's no difference between getting a shelter dog and a breeder dog". That isn't what I said, nor what I meant. It isn't the same and it'd be silly to say it was. I'm not sure how my post read, but if you took it as such, apologies. Adoption is a wonderful thing. People who want to do it, should. They should be proud of their dogs. And yes, Annabelle, I'm sure your dog IS wonderful. Only knowing her through what you've shared on Chaz, she's cute as hell to say the least and you have more than enough reasons to be proud. Same with Hank. Same with Finn. Same as a hundred other adopted dogs I've known only through Chaz or Facebook.

The car/child comparison is weird at best (I said that when I posted), but I think my point is still there. I'm not saying a dog, a car and a child are the same (come on now...) but to do whatever is best for your situation. Is there a perfect dog in the shelter for you? Go adopt it. Want a new car? Buy it. Want to adopt a child from Guatemala? Do it, you'll change that child's world. A dog is not a car is not a child, but there isn't a one size fits all here. You're not better or worse than any person who has chosen to do something differently or has a different set of circumstances to manage. Which brings me to another thought.

Get the right dog for your situation, don't get a dog as a statement. Maybe it's the area of the city I live in, and perhaps I see more of this than average, but I can't tell you how many times I've had someone approach me on the street (assuming the Whippets are OTT Greyhounds) and instantly get judgey when they find out that they're *gasp* breeder dogs. It's typically followed up with something along the lines of "Well I have a RESCUE suchandsuch", as though they've done something to make them better than the person than someone with a breeder purchased dog. THIS is the scenario that irritates me. The one I refuse to feel guilty for. I looked into Greyhounds. I tried to adopt a Grey before the Whippets and was turned down by the first two for not having a fenced yard. The third group insisted I needed two males as a first time adopter (I wanted a single female). It didn't fit my situation. It just so happened that the dog that DID fit my situation was a two year old Whippet girl given back to the breeder at a year old due to no fault of her own. She isn't adopted, she isn't a rescue, but she IS perfect for me.

 

[Red.Apricot]

I thought about this some more while Elsie was being the best dog in the whole world.

I don't feel guilty about buying Elsie, and I'm totally comfortable with my choice, thrilled with my dog, friends with the breeder, happy as a clam...

That doesn't mean I wouldn't feel proud of rescuing a dog. That doesn't negate the thrill of overcoming the hardships in the dog's past (possible euthanasia, homelessness, and so on) to kick ass in our chosen venue (sports or being the best dog in the house, whatever). Being comfortable with one choice doesn't negate anyone's pride in doing something above and beyond.

 

[*blackrose]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I think it's obnoxious that people "in the dog world" are allowed to feel proud and happy for supporting a good breeder, and can talk about their dog being from good lines as much as they want, but if a person feels proud and happy about rescuing their dog from being put to sleep, they are bleeding hearts and animal rights activists who think they are better than everyone else.

I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't feel good and happy that you adopted your dog. I'm thrilled that I've been able to foster the animals I have and been able to be their stepping stone on their way to their new lives. Cynder is an amazing dog - she was a rescue. Histamine is an amazing cat, she was a feral stray. My childhood dogs were rescues and they were **** near perfect. And I currently have a foster fail kitten using my leg as his pillow.

BUT, I hate that people lay on the guilt trip and liken me purchasing Abrams from a breeder as stupid and heartless, like I personally injected the beuthanasia solution into another dog's vein because I got a "breeder dog" and not a dog from a shelter. (These are typically the same people who also think I'm slaughtering entire litters of puppies with my bare hands because I have a dog with testicles. Not to mention what they say about my dog.) No. Just, no.

And I have had people say these things to me, to my face. This isn't just hypothetical. I have had people insult me for having Abrams when they find out he is from a breeder. I have had people disparage me (and him) if they find out how much I paid for him. I have had people tell me how I'm hurting animals and hurting my dog by leaving him intact.

It sucks to have people look down on you and your dog purely because he hasn't been homeless or was in need of "saving".

 

[iriskai]

BUT, I hate that people lay on the guilt trip and liken me purchasing Abrams from a breeder as stupid and heartless, like I personally injected the beuthanasia solution into another dog's vein because I got a "breeder dog" and not a dog from a shelter. (These are typically the same people who also think I'm slaughtering entire litters of puppies with my bare hands because I have a dog with testicles. Not to mention what they say about my dog.) No. Just, no.

And I have had people say these things to me, to my face. This isn't just hypothetical. I have had people insult me for having Abrams when they find out he is from a breeder. I have had people disparage me (and him) if they find out how much I paid for him. I have had people tell me how I'm hurting animals and hurting my dog by leaving him intact.

It sucks to have people look down on you and your dog purely because he hasn't been homeless or was in need of "saving".

I ran in to one woman on the street who wanted to meet the dogs. We talked for a minute and she was fawning all over them, assuming they were Greyhounds and commending me for what a great thing I did by rescuing them off the track. I politely mentioned they were Whippets (common mistake) and the general states of the breeders. She jerked away from loving on Ezra like he'd shocked her, as though she couldn't possibly give a 'breeder dog' attention meant for a shelter dog, commented quickly about how sad it was that so many dogs die because people buy from breeders, and hurried off.

 

[SpaceMutt]

I ran in to one woman on the street who wanted to meet the dogs. We talked for a minute and she was fawning all over them, assuming they were Greyhounds and commending me for what a great thing I did by rescuing them off the track. I politely mentioned they were Whippets (common mistake) and the general states of the breeders. She jerked away from loving on Ezra like he'd shocked her, as though she couldn't possibly give a 'breeder dog' attention meant for a shelter dog, commented quickly about how sad it was that so many dogs die because people buy from breeders, and hurried off.

I've had similarly awkward experiences and I don't even have my breeder dog yet! Because some people assume that if you've rescued once/have been involved in rescue in any way, of course you see the error of going to a breeder...I was once walking Astro and we passed by a yard sale. The woman running it just gave him a little stuffed toy, which was awesome! But then as we're standing there chatting she asks me where I got him from, I told her, and she promptly said "I'm so glad, it's so terrible that people buy dogs when adoption is an option right? I mean don't you get so angry?" On and on...it was just painful. I wish I'd had the courage to be like "lady, he's getting a sibling from a breeder and that doesn't make me evil, thanks a lot for the unnecessary judgment though!"

 

[Southpaw]

Can't decide if I want to spend big bucks again or just find some working stockdog litter for cheap and buy there.

I'll let ya know how that bolded part works out for me.


I've gotten my dogs from just about every source, and I've been happy with them all. County shelter, breed rescue, newspaper ad, Craigslist rehome, good breeder... Lucy thus far has had the biggest health issues (she's from the newspaper). I totally expected that though.
I'm VERY happy with Juno, in all ways - looks, health, temperament. Don't really ever see boxers in rescue that would match what I want (and I initially looked heavily at rescues because I didn't want a puppy). I'm very glad I went breeder route.

I hardly give any thought to where the dog is coming from, as long as it's the right dog. I will look at ALL avenues and really the way I decide to go is basically just a matter of where the right dog is when I'm ready. Maybe that's a breeder or a rescue or Craigslist. I don't care. They all need homes so whatever.

 

[Laurelin]

Yeah that attitude goes both ways.

Prior to Hank I had a couple incidences of people (never dog people) getting huffy about my breeder dogs. One person insisted I must not care about rescues at all and only liked purebred dogs (wtf?)

Being in the 'dog world' and getting Hank... I've seen the opposite side. Rescues are all full of issues. I don't want to have fix other peoples' problems. You DEFINITELY don't want to get an adult rescue dog for agility. It will DEFINITELY not work. It is like you are taking a huge, weird step backwards going from breeder to rescue.

Or there's the... How DARE you call your shelter dog a rescue. You did not rescue him. (to me I hear this and think 'I am not secure in my decision so how dare you be secure in yours') You and your rescue stickers trying to guilt trip me. You obviously think you're better than me. People read into things all the time. You know sometimes I am just saying 'he's a shelter dog' to help explain WHY I DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS BREED IS.

And yes, I do mention that Hank is a shelter dog. why? I hope maybe he'll change some minds and people will realize there's stable normal dogs in shelters. That's already happened. I had someone who knew Hank for a couple months find out he was from the shelter and they were shocked. 'He's from the shelter? but he's cute and nice?' Like it is impossible for him to both be cute and nice and also a stray from animal control.

I find in JQP's eyes rescue is touted as 'better' but in the dog world it is definitely not. Which is a shame. For the most part people are cool. There's crazies on both sides though and it irks me when people think it's only one side that has the crazies.

 

[Laurelin]

Also I have had dog people say to me that 'You got lucky' with Hank. Same people that told me all rescues have issues. But even presented with Hank he must be a fluke because they like him.

 

[sassafras]

I find in JQP's eyes rescue is touted as 'better' but in the dog world it is definitely not. Which is a shame. For the most part people are cool. There's crazies on both sides though and it irks me when people think it's only one side that has the crazies.

I've seen that, too. When I got Toast, a few people in Squash's agility class for the most part had the attitude that NOW things were going to get really serious and fun for me. I was thinking "but I am having fun now with Squash?"

To be fair, some of it was the change to a very biddable, handler-focused herder (one of the women in class has bullmastiffs and ACDs, and she was more like "you already know what running bullmastiffs is like, now you'll have the other side of the coin.")

 

[Laurelin]

I got a lot of 'Bless your heart's

You're doing it backwards, Lauren!

Luckily not my agility club since there's so many rescues there. But at trials and other things? Yup.

 

[milos_mommy]

Yeah, there are a**holes on both sides of the spectrum. But I think it's really important to be proud, and show that, if you rescue/adopt a dog, especially one that turns out awesome, so other people have a more realistic idea of what that is like. A ton of people have huge misconceptions about dogs in shelters or rescue groups all being "broken".

In the same vain....I think it's TOTALLY acceptable to be proud of your breeder dog! People who choose (good) breeders put a lot of work and research into finding them, the breeders put a lot of work into getting their dogs that way, etc....but I don't think going around telling people is really the same as it is with rescue. When someone meets your shelter dog that's super well trained and stable and whatnot, chances are they may want a pet like that one day, or someone they know does.

When someone meets your awesomely bred english mastiff or BC or whippet, there's a pretty good chance that the breed/breeder isn't really a good fit for them, so there's not much that "oh, we got her from a breeder in Michigan who's dog won best of breed at Westminster" is going to accomplish. That's kind of something I want to hear if I start asking questions about the breed or the dog's history or say I have one/want one....but not something I need to hear if I start petting your dog and compliment her behavior.


The thing about puppies being more predictable/stable from a breeder (in certain breeds, at least), is not something I have experienced or necessarily agree with, although I hear it ALL the time. And it makes sense, early socialization and all that...but I just haven't seen it pan out IRL, at least not in a way that it doesn't with rescue. Granted 1. Most of the dogs I know are going on to just be pets, and 2. I spend A LOT of time with rescue puppies and have pretty good education/background in temperament testing and feel I'm probably better versed than the average person in predicting puppies temperaments. I suppose if I was walking into the humane society and picking a puppy out of a pen, I wouldn't feel the same way.

As far as pets...the rescues I work with adopt out dozens upon dozens, of puppies (mostly pit bulls, but I have worked in pit bull specific rescue for a while. Before that we had beagle puppies, hound puppies, shepherd puppies, terrier puppies, chihuahua puppies, lab mix puppies....) and I can honestly only think of one puppy returned because he didn't turn out right. I can think of a couple of breeder puppies returned because they didn't turn out right or even became aggressive, and these are from "good" breeders, with stable lines, health testing, who were supposedly temperament tested. I meet puppies here and there in rescue (not rare, I'd say at any given time I can name at least one puppy under 4-5 months) that I think would make an awesome sports prospect, and I'd bet just as much on that pup being successful in a sport home as a breeder pup, if they were given the same training here on out.

But I guess that's probably because I meet so many rescue puppies and spend time with them and am able to perform temperament testing myself, as opposed to having to trust a (questionably experienced) shelter volunteer or looking to a breeder. So for me, most of the time, unless I'm looking for a really rare/unhealthy breed or something like a service dog prospect or possibly PP dog....yeah I'd feel guilty about a breeder puppy, because I KNOW I personally could find what I need in rescue, easily. And I know I can find what other people are looking for in rescue, but I guess everyone doesn't have the luxury of getting to know two dozen puppies at any given time.

 

[Beanie]

I find in JQP's eyes rescue is touted as 'better' but in the dog world it is definitely not. Which is a shame. For the most part people are cool. There's crazies on both sides though and it irks me when people think it's only one side that has the crazies.

That is because, as you said, JQP has been forcefed HSUS and PETA stuff for so long, they think a rescue is better, breeders are bad ("there's no such thing as a responsible breeder while dogs die in shelters!!!"), if you have a purebred you're stuck up in some way, purebred dogs are super unhealthy, so on and so forth. It's not about people being crazies, it's simply about a systematic attack on breeders via public opinion with the ultimate goal of making people ashamed about breeding.
So it's really no surprise why people in the dog world react poorly. It's already an uphill battle, one that breeders are definitely losing, to then have "your own" turning on you too and telling people "rescues are super duper awesome!! why would you need a purebred dog?? Look what you can find that somebody else threw away!! You can find whatever you want in the shelter, you don't need a breeder!"

 

[Picklepaige]

Saying rescue dogs are awesome is "betraying" the dog world? Seriously?

Finn is ****ing awesome. The dogs at the shelter I work at are ****ing awesome, and I wish more people knew how awesome they were so I don't have to put any more puppies in body bags.

 

[Beanie]

No, saying there is no need for a breeder because you can find a dog JUST LIKE a dog from a breeder in a shelter is.

See how successful they have been at pitting even dog people against each other?

 

[milos_mommy]

I also don't know that the general public largely believes rescue is better. Yeah, most dog lovers who are into animals enough to want to meet your dog out in public might be, but I've found that a huge percent of the population really believes there's "something wrong" with all shelter dogs. If they didn't, most people wouldn't buy puppies out of a newspaper or from their friend down the street. I think as far as "dog people" go, IRL I know more who own rescues, but as far people who come in as clients or meet just wandering around or I know from school or something, I'd say probably at least half of them buy puppies from crappy BYBs or pet stores (even though PETA and HSUS stuff is REALLY pushed here and most people do consider themselves "dog people"), because they don't want a "messed up" dog or they think the dog can't bond with them if they're over the age of 7 weeks old. (it's illegal to sell dogs under 8 weeks here, but every week I meet someone with a 6 or 7 week old).

 

[sassafras]

... I wish more people knew how awesome they were so I don't have to put any more puppies in body bags.

Ugh I hate HATE this argument. Someone getting a dog from a breeder isn't putting puppies in body bags. People surrendering puppies to rescues is putting puppies in body bags.

Of my current dogs, two came from rescues and two were purchased - one bred intentionally, one an oops litter.

The two that I purchased didn't put any puppies in body bags. When I got Pip and then again when I got Maisy, I wanted *A* dog. And I found two great dogs I adore at rescue groups.

I wanted Squash, I wanted Toast. At the time each joined my household, I didn't want *A* dog - I wanted *THESE* dogs. If I hadn't gotten Squash, if I hadn't gotten Toast, I wouldn't have gotten any dogs at all at those times and I'd still have just two.

I also don't know that the general public largely believes rescue is better.

I think it's regional. Around here there is definitely a strong bias towards rescue dogs with the general public unless someone does a specific task - hunting being common in my area. The only people I know who think rescues are "broken" are people who have gotten dogs who really WERE broken and adopted out anyway with no disclosure - which is another whole can of worms.