Growling

TheWholePack

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#1
Ok, so growling is good. It tells us that our dog isn't comfortable with a situation.

My question is to know how to work with a dog that growls at another living in my house. Both are male. Both are fixed. One is submissive. However, the growling starts as soon as one dog comes close to me, moves to a different position, enters the house, whatever.....

Behavior specialists aren't a resource where I live. There are no trainers that I have found to be effective. I'm on my own here. I'd be quite happy if the dogs could just ignore one another. They don't have to be friendly, but I need your advice about what to do with this problem.

I know that I shouldn't punish growling. I try to redirect. I send the dog to his bed (his area only). I also know that I shouldn't pay much attention to him when he's like this or it could reinforce the behavior. I usually tell him calmly to go to his bed and he does so. I wait until he stops growling and then reinforce. Is this correct?

The other dog is scared to the point of shaking at times. It breaks my heart to see him like that. I am careful not to reinforce this behavior either, rather, I try to redirect as well. Sometimes I feel like a traffic cop giving directions all over the place!

Separating is difficult since both are inside dogs. They do each have their own areas far enough away from one another so they're comfortable (for the most part).

The strange thing is, that the one dog growls when the other approaches, and after about 30 seconds both are sound asleep in the same area (usually where I am at).

Your experience and knowledge is greatly appreciated!
 
T

tessa_s212

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#2
Let the dog know you are NOT something to guard. Whenever the one tries to guard you, make it known(such as sending him to his bed) that you are not something that needs guarded, and that the other dog can remain near you. When he behaves, invite him back in rewarding for good behavior.

But, that is where my instruction and expertise ends. I'm hoping someone else can give you better and more clear explanation.
 

Dekka

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#3
Wow sounds like you are on the right track. How long have you had both dogs?
 

TheWholePack

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#4
The summisive dog is Twist. A mixed breed that I rescued at a week old when his mother was killed in a construction site. He's 10. He has always been very confident and very well mannered. (I think this has to do with the fact that I fed him with an eye-dropper and he bonded with me from the get-go.)

The growler is Lucky. He's a Blue Heeler, my late father's dog up to just over a year ago. He's 8. I'm working on socializing Lucky. He lived with my dad, just the two of them, until he came here. (My father's last request to me.) At first he respected the other dogs space. Now he snarls and growls if they come too close to him. He's especially hard on Twist.

I have been thinking a lot about this issue, and I am wondering if his form of communication is growling. He growls when he comes in the house, even if there are no other dogs around. He growls in his sleep. He growls when he's eating. But the growling and intimidation tactics he's using with Twist are to scare the heck out of him. As I type this he's sleeping under my desk and stretched, making a low growl.....

What I wouldn't give to have a behaviorist or good trainer in my area!
 

Dekka

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#5
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/candy.html is an interesting read. But if Twist (hehe dekka's mom's name was twist) is really upset then you can see this isn't an agreed upon set up.

I would keep redirecting. And make sure Twist gets enough time just for himself with you.
 

Doberluv

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#6
I think you're on track too....like Tessa said, remove him from the social sphere. Dogs hate to be isolated. And then invite him back after just a minute. Try again and repeat. The more times this goes back and forth, the more chance of his making a connection between his snarky behavior and being removed.....and his tolerant behavior and staying. (the more times he can be reinforced for good behavior)

At other times, practice some nothing in life is free (Google it) and more obedience practice. Get yourself back in the driver's seat as to the one who controls resources, directs activities, decides when to play, when to pat, when to give toys, when to allow dog outside, when he eats etc. You become very important and needed for his "survival" and no longer does he need or care to take the law into his own paws. Separate the dogs entirely when you're not right close to supervise. Be careful not to inadvertantly reinforce his intolerance by attending or fussing over him. Just calmly and swiftly lead him to another room for just a minute or two. Close the door so he is all by his lonesome.

This is all I know to do. There might be something better. That link looks good, although I just skimmed it. More for later.
 

TheWholePack

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#7
An interesting article, thanks for sharing. There is a good point made about owners not setting boundaries. I've spent just over a year setting boundaries with an adult dog that has never had them. My father took him everywhere with him, to work, shopping, out with friends, and he was the king of the house. (When we had to sell my dad's jeep the arm rest was in pieces.....Lucky not liking being left in the truck at some point!) The last Christmas dinner at my dad's place I couldn't stand up without Lucky snapping at my feet! My dad thought it was funny! So you can see that my expectations of Lucky and those that were reinforced for years are very different. (Don't get me wrong, my father loved Lucky...he was just uninformed about a lot of things.)

As it turns out, Lucky now lives with me. A lot of his behaviors are no longer accepted. Many a times I have stopped filling dog dishes due to his incessant barking. Eventually, when he's calm and sitting, he can eat. I still have to stand in the doorway between my office and the kitchen when the two dogs are eating to keep Lucky from racing into the kitchen to growl with a mouth full of food!

I'm doing everything I can think of to make Lucky understand that I'm the decision maker. I firmly believe that an old dog can learn new tricks, so with time, the right guidance, and help from forum members like you we'll get these things worked out.

Thanks again for sharing this information. If you can think of anything else that I can do to reinforce this, I'm willing to consider it!
 

TheWholePack

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#8
Doberluv, thanks for your reply! I have been working with the Nothing in Life is Free since the first day I joined the forum (only about a week or so) and I'm seeing results already! I have several copies of it hanging in the bathroom, folded as a bookmark in the book I am currently reading on positive training, and even on the bathroom mirror! There's no way I'm going to allow myself to be inconsistent or forget about it for one minute!

I know it is going to take time, I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can for the social health of my pack. Thanks again!
 

Doberluv

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#10
As far as the NILIF, I think that if carried to extreme can cause some undue stress on dogs. I agree with member Sam on this. She wrote a good post on default behaviors, which is getting the dog to do a lot of things automatically, thereby not having to tell the dog everything. You might do a search on default behaviors and see what she has to say. Very good stuff. That takes some of the pressure off both owner and dog. And I, myself practice "some things in life are free." It depends too, on how much behavioral issues one is having, I guess.
 

TheWholePack

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#11
Doberluv - I just wanted to thank you for the suggestion to isolate Lucky for a brief period when he growls.

He growled while I was giving a good tummy scratch to Twist, and I stood up, walked into the bedroom (Lucky followed) and left him there for all of 3 or 4 minutes.

When I let him out he didn't growl for over 2 hours! A record.

Today I repeated this and I haven't heard a single growl in hours.......

He's such a smart dog! LOL. Thanks for the great tip!
 

Doberluv

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#12
Thank you for the thank you. LOL. And you're welcome.

Oh, this is good. Don't get too confident though and trust him. (not that you would) It would be terrible to have a bad fight. I'd never leave them together ever unsupervised. Even 1 or 2 minutes of solitary confinement is enough. 3 or 4 is an eternity and he won't hold onto the connection by that time anyhow. When he gets to re-join the group after just a couple of minutes, the contrast might be more apparent to him....the contrast between being possessive and isolated...... and being tolerant and sociable. Back and forth as much as it takes.

The other thing, while this may eliminate the reactiveness, the other stuff needs to be done to reiterate to him that you've got it all under control and he doesn't have to make those decisions.....that stuff being a little bit of NILIF and obedience practice...that his life depends on you and you'll take care of things. The good things in life are contingent on the wanted behavior.

As Ian Dunbar says, "reward pushy and you'll get pushy." It's not so much about heirarchy and complicated, intense and over-rated pack behavior (with animals that are most likely more directly descended from semi solitary animals) as it is about getting down to brass tacks of learning behavior. (that's just my opinion) And I think that is what Ian Dunbar means by that statement.

Anyhow, that is great news that it appears to be working. Give it lots of time because it may be a coincidence at this point. Lots of time and practice will give you a better idea when you're past the point in the "experiment" where desired responses are happening above chance.

Keep us posted. So glad to hear back!
 
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#13
Another thing is that you need to spend a good amount of time with Lucky. He has been through a traumatic experince. The person he lived with for most of his life is gone, and now he has to live with other dogs and try to bond to a completely different person. That is hard. Just be patient and keep up the good work!!!
 

Doberluv

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#14
Good advice Outline! So important to make that bond of trust.

Another thing you could do is, as long as they don't fight over it, hand out some tid bits of something yummy.... as long as they're hanging out and happy. It does good for both dogs. It associates being together with good things. "Hey, this is pretty cool. When the other dog is around, great things happen." :D
 

TheWholePack

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#15
So, just taking this thread a little off track.

What is your take on dog memory? My vet says they don't have much of a memory but from seeing how behavior is changed by external influences they must IMO.

After 15 months of living with me, do you think a dog could still remember my father? Could his insecurity be due to the fact that his previous companion left? Lucky visited the hospital every day for 9 weeks, and we there right up to the end. I wonder how much he remembers of his previous life...

I'm working on the bonding wihout giving him preferential treatment when with the others. We walk and play alone because he's just not interested in playing with the other dogs (socialization is so important at a young age!).

Last night we made some great progress. Lucky was on the foot of the bed (as usual), Milla was under the covers (hot and muggy and she needs to be covered up to sleep!) and a thunderstorm rolled in and suddenly I had Twist and Lucky (the rivals) pushed up against either side of me without a peep! We all fell asleep like that and they were in the same place this morning. (Boy is my back stiff today!)

Once again, I'm interested in your opinions regarding memory.
 

Doberluv

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#16
Who knows? LOL. My take or intuition on it is that they make strong associations with things/people etc. I think they remember, but not in a logical, complex, thoroughly, thought out way....like we do. But I don't know that anyone knows for sure what's in a dog's mind.
 
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#17
I don't know if Lucky "remembers" your father in a sense that we do. He may have felt uneasy etc when he first came to live with you. His schedule was off, he was in a new place, he was living with new dogs. This caused him some stress and although those things may be familiar now and he has adjusted his schedule, if he never learned to feel comfortable he could still be stressed. Stress builds up over time and that may be why his problems have gotten gradually worse.

Like doberluv said, we don't know what goes on in a dog's mind, but we can guess :)
 

EbonyDal

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#18
Can you teach Lucky, Twist's name--sit them both down nearby with you in the middle, say, "Lucky, where's Twist?" And lure Lucky into looking toward Twist and then treat them both, Lucky first? If looking at Twist and not growling earns a treat ... just my thoughts.
 

shazbot

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#19
Is it possible that he's sick or injured in some way? Dogs get grumpy and intolerant when they aren't feeling good.
 

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