Ferguson, MO

[Snark]

I dont have reason to believe Brown was worked up over the robbery. I watched the full tape of the robbery, including Brown at the front counter having some kind of exchange with the cashier (some people are saying money was exchanged but that is definitely not verified in any sense and likely he took at least something even if he paid for others). The owner nor cashier reported it and I am pretty sure there was likely a reason why and that Brown knew. Now, yes, that is a big assumption on my part...but so is assuming that Brown was all worked up over it.

And I dont know how many times more I can say this. Yes, there is blame on both sides. BUT the cops ultimately are in power and have the authority so yes, the onus is on them to start fixing it

It is more than this just one moment and that is the true issue. People didnt erupt because of one shooting but because it was the final straw. Again, that area is known for being very corrupt in law enforcement. Ferguson has a long history of extreme racial profiling. Again, up until this last chief of Ferguson (who took over 4 years ago) complaints werent even filed with the personnel records.

I never said he was worked up, but, c'mon, if YOU had just done something unlawful, thought you'd gotten away with it and a cop suddenly appeared, you wouldn't be assuming you'd been caught? Really? There is agreement that there was some kind of scuffle between Brown and Wilson in the car and the first shot fired inside the vehicle. So, was Brown attempting to grab the gun? If not, then why did Wilson feel compelled to shoot?

Why? Why can't BOTH sides attempt to 'fix it'? You keep saying the cops have the power and the authority, but you CAN'T make people listen, or trust, if they don't want to do it. It also sounds like this current police chief WAS making the attempt (and coincidentally, Wilson was hired on four years ago, so don't you think any complaints or disciplinary actions WOULD be filed in his record?), but people are calling for this police chief to be fired.

 

[Greenmagick]

There has been a lot of community driven work to do just that....to work on fixing the issues. They are working hard on it too. Many of the talks by local leaders have been focused on listening to the youth and setting examples for positive interaction. But yes, I do feel most will be for naught if they cant truly trust the police to protect and serve all communities the same. Its not just about race either...there are multiple issues at play here but to deny race is one of them is not going to help the problem.

There is a lot of pent up anger and feelings of hopelessness in some of these communities. Feelings of nothing ever changes. That is why people are working so hard to get people registered to vote, to educate people on what local politicians can and should be doing and to help give examples of what power voting can have. There are MANY MANY people working to give all of this energy and emotion a positive push to make read and effective change.

 

[CharlieDog]

I never named any names, nor called anyone out, nor posted my own beliefs on the situation. Just that what has been posted has been a bit eye opening.

 

[Raegan]

Of course the robbery was relevant, it goes to Brown's mindset. HE knew he'd just committed a strong-arm robbery, he's now an adult, and the first thing he sees AFTER committing the crime is a cop?? Brown doesn't know that Wilson doesn't know about his crime, so what do you think his first thought was?? 'Oh, goodie, now I can be arrested and go to jail?'

What robbery? The Ferguson Market didn't call the police and didn't report any crime taking place.

 

[Psyfalcon]

I never said he was worked up, but, c'mon, if YOU had just done something unlawful, thought you'd gotten away with it and a cop suddenly appeared, you wouldn't be assuming you'd been caught? Really? There is agreement that there was some kind of scuffle between Brown and Wilson in the car and the first shot fired inside the vehicle. So, was Brown attempting to grab the gun? If not, then why did Wilson feel compelled to shoot?

Why? Why can't BOTH sides attempt to 'fix it'? You keep saying the cops have the power and the authority, but you CAN'T make people listen, or trust, if they don't want to do it. It also sounds like this current police chief WAS making the attempt (and coincidentally, Wilson was hired on four years ago, so don't you think any complaints or disciplinary actions WOULD be filed in his record?), but people are calling for this police chief to be fired.

Apparently officer records were.. irregularly kept prior to the new chief. The officer involved in the shooting was there before the current chief.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...erguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html

 

[release the hounds]

Like i said in the beginning, I blame the media for very irresponsible reporting, I blame the irresponsible actions of those consuming that media, and the police have a much more militarized attitude than what I think a "police" force should have. It's obviously been building and there are things at work that most of us do not know about BUT,

I think they picked the wrong event to use at as a catalyst. Of course I don't know for sure because STILL, when I turn on the morning news they talk about what violence there was or wasn't at nightly protests and then go right back to the the storyline of "unarmed teenager" "shot to death" by a white police officer. They just keep driving home the picture they want everyone to hold in their head.

One has to read a lot between the lines on this one, and when doing that we're a prisoner to our own beliefs and bias. I think there was a robbery. I don't think it's a big issue the store owners didn't call it in. A customer did and was on the phone with the police with the owner as it was happening or immediately afterwards. I wasn't clear on that from another story I read. I think the fact the store was looted and the owners felt it necessary to distance themselves from everything is also telling of the kid of people around there. Snitches get stitches comes to mind.

what happened in the vehicle? it matters, what happened next? it matters. There are differing accounts. we do know the first eye witness that sparked everything was also apparently a party to a theft and has a history of lying to police, skipping out on court and filing false reports/giving false information concerning previous crimes.

I'd think if anything was going to spark an outrage and protest and legitimately so, it could have been in so many other worthy cases. I just have a feeling that when all the facts come out and everything has been gone over the picture is going to look much differently than the original painting.

I could be wrong though

 

[Snark]

What robbery? The Ferguson Market didn't call the police and didn't report any crime taking place.

This one:
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...orian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/

And, possibly, the owner didn't report because of this kind of reaction:
http://fox2now.com/2014/08/11/quikt...-fire-during-overnight-looting-near-ferguson/

 

[sassafras]

what happened in the vehicle? it matters, what happened next? it matters. There are differing accounts. we do know the first eye witness that sparked everything was also apparently a party to a theft and has a history of lying to police, skipping out on court and filing false reports/giving false information concerning previous crimes.

I'd think if anything was going to spark an outrage and protest and legitimately so, it could have been in so many other worthy cases. I just have a feeling that when all the facts come out and everything has been gone over the picture is going to look much differently than the original painting.

I could be wrong though

No, I think you're right. I'm in the same camp: I think an event happened, we don't really know the details of what it was, and then the media threw buckets of gasoline on the fire.

In general, people are terrible witnesses. We tend to ascribe motive and intent to things other people do and to interpret events through our own filter and emotions. Not because we WANT to mislead anyone, but because that is how our brains work.

As an objective outsider, either a scenario in which the officer pulled Brown into the vehicle or a scenario in which Brown rushed the officer are completely plausible to me. But if I lived there, throw in my bias depending on my subjective experiences and the story of what actually happened can easily blur to fit what I expect it to be and think it was.

We do it all the time right here on these forums, judging situations we haven't seen, ascribing motive and intent to one another and to total strangers. It's not a stretch to understand it can happen to a much bigger degree in front of your eyes in an emotionally charged situation. Stuff like that happens SO fast in real life, it's hard to even know what you've seen sometimes. Then your mind fills in the gaps. Nobody's going to know what really happened, I think.

 

[release the hounds]

I'd think beating the **** out of a guy with the same name as someone they're looking for and then lying about it would have made a better catalyst for Ferguson. I'd think the woman with her 3 young kids pulled over in a Red Nissan at gun point while looking for a TAN TOYOTA would make a better case of profiling and acting irresponsibly as a law enforcement officer than this case with Brown in Ferguson.a

But it's easier to be irresponsible as a media outlet when you can use "unarmed teenager" even though he was a 6'4 270 lb plus 18 year old who obviously wasn't afraid to push people around. and say "shot him to death" while "giving up" and then let a family lawyer parade around talking about "execution" Gets more hits in the twitterverse I guess???

 

[Raegan]

This one:
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...orian-johnson-michael-brown-robbery/14118769/

"[Dorian] Johnson, who was with Brown when he was shot, will not face any criminal charges in connection with the store robbery because "we have determined he committed no crime," [Ferguson Police Chief Thomas] Jackson said."
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/dueling-narratives-in-michael-brown-shooting/27614696

Video of Jackson giving a new conference 8/18,
1:38 "...determined [Dorian Johnson] committed no crime, and was not complicit in a crime."
1:47 Darren Wilson was not the officer responding to the 911 call from the store
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...ef-officer-didnt-know-about-robbery/14124259/

 

[Greenmagick]

Well and definitely know one really knows what happened....but from the witness accounts and knowing the general attitude of cops in that area I have (obviously) a pretty strong opinion on what seems the most likely to me.

 

[Tahla9999]

I really don't think the minds are going to change here. I respect the opinions and am not stooping to calling names like a child. But very much agree with snark. I don't care what color you are or what your beliefs are, there are rules. Follow them.
I can't understand thinking the robbery is a non issue. And if no one seemed worked up it's probably because it happens so often and they let it go. How not to get shot as a store owner. I think that's horribly sad

Okay, lets pretend that the story of the events did begin the way Darren Wilson claimed. That this guy tried to grab for his gun and fought him for it, but ended the way the eye witness accounts claimed it ended. That Michael Brown ran off and while he was running away, the police officer kept trying to shoot him down. Brown stop and turn with his hands up to stop this man from killing him, only for the officer to continue to shoot him down. Do you think that it is okay for an officer to do that?

See, here is the confusing thing about people who stand by Wilson's side. I can see people supporting Darren because they believe that it was all in self defense and Michael wasn't running away like reports said, but running to the officer, which would justified the self defense claim. And yet, I don't see that with a lot of these supporters. That even if he was running away, the officer was totally justified in shooting him down dead because he was a thug. That's it. Who cares if they surrender, who cares if they plead, shoot them down dead. They are no longer people with rights. Forget giving them a trial, just kill them. There is a whole heap of racial animosity mixed in to this mentality as well. The fund for Darren Wilson had to take down their comments section because the people who were donating were leaving comments about how oh so happy they were that he shot down a thug. I read one of the comments who even said he was only going to give him half the amount of money because he didn't shoot down his friend as well.

Regardless of what started the confrontation, everyone SHOULD be outrage about the possibility of a cop killing a person who was giving themselves up. The idea of a cop making that decision to execute this guy should be downright scary to anyone, I don't care who you are. What Michael Brown did or didn't do should not matter. If he was running away, if he was turning himself in, he should NOT have been shot down. If we go by the eye witness reports, the cop wanted him dead. He tried killing him as he ran and he succeeded when Brown gave himself up. No matter what started it, if that was the end result, than the cop needs to be punished and made an example of.

 

[release the hounds]

and if it comes out to Brown was giving himself up, yes there should be outrage. BUT, I think we're a long ways from being able to claim that, unless of course that is the conclusion you feel already.

I don't feel outrage for the "possibility" I'm concerned, I want more facts, I'd like to think I could have access to unfiltered and real information. I'm more outraged that I can't get at least that from the so called "media" than I am at a possibility. I'd have too much outrage all the time.

It's also possible the 6'4" 270lb plus man attacked and tried to get his gun. It's possible he just wanted to beat the **** out of him and run. It's possible he changed his mind and charged back to finish what he started.

If we're going to be outraged at possibilities, then shouldn't we also be outraged that a town was vandalized, rioters rioted, and looters looted and a good cop has a price on his head for giving a very large and imposing man intent to deal him harm, exactly what he asked for?

My logic doesn't tell me a much smaller cop tried pulling a guy like Brown into his car to intimidate him. I think it's much more likely Brown invited himself in, but then nobody really knows and I don't exactly trust the "key" witness.

I'm sorry, but IF it went down as Brown jumped him in his car, a guy twice as big, I'd like to think a cop could get his bearings when the guy is running away and think before reacting. But I can also see it as any action from then forward could be seen as "aggressive" short of falling on your face and putting your hands behind your back.

Once that altercation in the car happened, I consider that a "**** hit the fan" moment. I get less judgmental after that because after anything is possible and nobody knows how they'd react till they are there.

 

[Greenmagick]

See, here is the confusing thing about people who stand by Wilson's side. I can see people supporting Darren because they believe that it was all in self defense and Michael wasn't running away like reports said, but running to the officer, which would justified the self defense claim. And yet, I don't see that with a lot of these supporters. That even if he was running away, the officer was totally justified in shooting him down dead because he was a thug. That's it. Who cares if they surrender, who cares if they plead, shoot them down dead. They are no longer people with rights. Forget giving them a trial, just kill them. There is a whole heap of racial animosity mixed in to this mentality as well. The fund for Darren Wilson had to take down their comments section because the people who were donating were leaving comments about how oh so happy they were that he shot down a thug. I read one of the comments who even said he was only going to give him half the amount of money because he didn't shoot down his friend as well.

This, so much this. I realize not all of his supporters feel this way...some are rational about it and some are just police or family members of police themselves...but yeah, many are outright racist supporting him because of COURSE the black kid deserved it..he was black. Reading the comments people FREELY posted with their real names attached is very scary and yes, shows how far we still have to come.

 

[Tahla9999]

and if it comes out to Brown was giving himself up, yes there should be outrage. BUT, I think we're a long ways from being able to claim that, unless of course that is the conclusion you feel already.

I don't feel outrage for the "possibility" I'm concerned, I want more facts, I'd like to think I could have access to unfiltered and real information. I'm more outraged that I can't get at least that from the so called "media" than I am at a possibility. I'd have too much outrage all the time.

It's also possible the 6'4" 270lb plus man attacked and tried to get his gun. It's possible he just wanted to beat the **** out of him and run. It's possible he changed his mind and charged back to finish what he started.

If we're going to be outraged at possibilities, then shouldn't we also be outraged that a town was vandalized, rioters rioted, and looters looted and a good cop has a price on his head for giving a very large and imposing man intent to deal him harm, exactly what he asked for?

My logic doesn't tell me a much smaller cop tried pulling a guy like Brown into his car to intimidate him. I think it's much more likely Brown invited himself in, but then nobody really knows and I don't exactly trust the "key" witness.

I'm sorry, but IF it went down as Brown jumped him in his car, a guy twice as big, I'd like to think a cop could get his bearings when the guy is running away and think before reacting. But I can also see it as any action from then forward could be seen as "aggressive" short of falling on your face and putting your hands behind your back.

Once that altercation in the car happened, I consider that a "**** hit the fan" moment. I get less judgmental after that because after anything is possible and nobody knows how they'd react till they are there.

Keep in mind I'm saying "if". If he did do it then yes, he needs to be punished no matter what occurred before the end result. Keep in mind there are other witness who claimed almost the exact same thing the key witness stated. When the news came to interview the residence, a women describe seeing Michael Brown running, than surrendering with his hands up, than shot down. Two other witness claim to see the altercation and thought it look like Michael was fighting back the officer. They also saw him running away and the officer shooting him dead when he turned around with his hands in the air. A guy twitted after seeing the event, claiming that the guy was running and was killed for what he felt was for "no reason."

While I don't see the logic in a police officer trying to pull someone in their car, I will keep my mind open. Even if it is illogical, doesn't mean it didn't happen that way. Like I said before, I don't care what started it, if it ended the way it was claimed, the police officer needs to be punished. An officer should not take matters into their own hands and kill someone just because they think they deserve it.

 

[Snark]

"[Dorian] Johnson, who was with Brown when he was shot, will not face any criminal charges in connection with the store robbery because "we have determined he committed no crime," [Ferguson Police Chief Thomas] Jackson said."
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/dueling-narratives-in-michael-brown-shooting/27614696

Video of Jackson giving a new conference 8/18,
1:38 "...determined [Dorian Johnson] committed no crime, and was not complicit in a crime."
1:47 Darren Wilson was not the officer responding to the 911 call from the store
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/loca...ef-officer-didnt-know-about-robbery/14124259/

That exonerates Johnson, only. Are you denying the store clerk being manhandled by a person the same size, wearing the same outfit as Brown, within minutes of Wilson rolling up on the two? I am not saying Brown deserved to be killed for this, but I do say it goes to his mental state at seeing a police officer suddenly appear.

I just don't want a rush to judgement on either side. I want a full investigation, with as much factual evidence presented as possible. I don't want that officer railroaded to appease a segment of the population threatening violence if they don't get their way. I don't want the officer exonerated, just because he's a cop (the thin blue line). I would like to see those elected officials/politicians publicly censured for threatening more violence if they don't agree with the grand jury's decision.

 

[Greenmagick]

Well and unfortunately people are not going to feel like its a fair trial considering the prosecuting attorney. He should've been voted out years ago really. While I am NOT saying he is going to be biased, his father was an officer killed in the line of duty so there is definitely worry about that factoring in. The whole thing is a mess....

I really hope some good comes from this. We NEED to incorporate the city and county together...we need to make all the little tiny police forces into one. We need to de-segregate our city. On the whole, its not that this is a racist city as much as its so segregated and people rarely travel into areas they deem not theirs if that makes sense. Most of the police force for these little municipalities come from very different worlds and they never get to know the actual community they are tasked with serving. The county has never recovered from white flight and many people still follow that trend. Then you have the problem of gentrification which is also happening in many areas.

There are many of us here TRYING to fix it, looking for solutions, looking for unity. But there are many others with their fingers in their ears and eyes screwed shut...as long as it doesnt directly seem to effect them they are complacent to let things go on as usual.

I grew up in University City. At the time I did not realize how unique my experience was. It is a very diverse area...we had multi racial couples, lesbian couples with children, gay couples, blended families, traditional families, hippies, yuppies, catholics, orthodox jews, atheists, etc all on my block alone lol. It was normal to me and my home...and wonderful. I had no idea that my little slice of life was sadly not the norm. My dads family all lived in north county which is still more diverse than other areas but definitely a bit more run down in general. So when I grew up, moved into the city...wasnt too much different. Then I started working in and eventually moved to south county. It is SO drastically different. People are racist so much more than I could believe. And its not even really deep seated racism as much as they have never been challenged on it nor even interacted with other cultures or neighborhoods, or lifestyles etc and so are confused by it and feel its "different" and not equal...or not the same and feel removed from the connections we all share as humans.

Sorry, I got rambly and most of you have probably already checked out of this post. But its a very real and tragic issue here. I hate it

Some background for any who may be interested
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...l?Post+generic=?tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost

 

[Beanie]

There are many of us here TRYING to fix it, looking for solutions, looking for unity. But there are many others with their fingers in their ears and eyes screwed shut...as long as it doesnt directly seem to effect them they are complacent to let things go on as usual.

This is so incredibly true and really gets right to the heart of a lot of things going on here - and in other places too, if people bothered to open their eyes.

 

[Tahla9999]

That exonerates Johnson, only. Are you denying the store clerk being manhandled by a person the same size, wearing the same outfit as Brown, within minutes of Wilson rolling up on the two? I am not saying Brown deserved to be killed for this, but I do say it goes to his mental state at seeing a police officer suddenly appear.

I just don't want a rush to judgement on either side. I want a full investigation, with as much factual evidence presented as possible. I don't want that officer railroaded to appease a segment of the population threatening violence if they don't get their way. I don't want the officer exonerated, just because he's a cop (the thin blue line). I would like to see those elected officials/politicians publicly censured for threatening more violence if they don't agree with the grand jury's decision.

Yes, remember when Zimmerman went to jail just because people wanted to appease a certain segment of the population who threaten World War 3 if that didn't happen! Imagine if he was acquitted, we would have had a complete disaster on our hands!

 

[release the hounds]

I would propose marriage to you right now if there weren't about six other chaz ladies who'd jump me over it. :rofl1:

This thread just got interesting