Ferguson, MO

Dogdragoness

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#41
So, of those examples I gave, NO ONE is responsible for their actions and it's all the fault of the police? The police instigated the looting and rioting?? They get screamed at, bricks, rocks and urine thrown at them, along with firebombs, and you're blaming them for responding? How many civilians were hurt by cops in those riots? None. The only injuries were to the cops, but it's their fault for being there? Then people got angry when they stayed away and looters ran rampant.

Yes, there are people who shouldn't be cops, and then there are the race-baiters like Al Sharpton, who can also set the tone but instead fuel the fire. Who calls him out? No one.

Maybe you should expand your viewing choices, I saw the footage of the chanting, as well as people in the crowd insisting there wouldn't be justice until Wilson was tried AND FOUND GUILTY. Why bother with a trial? They want his head on a platter. The same news channel also reported how most of the crowd was peaceful and a lot of the agitators were not from Ferguson, as well as providing coverage of residents helping shopkeepers clean up after the looting.

Yes, there are deep problems in north county but it's not ALL on the cops. There was a man shot (not by the cops) during the riot and the cops couldn't even get through the crowd to get to the guy. NOT one person came forward to identify the shooter or even admit they saw the shooting. I get that people don't trust the cops, but how are the cops supposed to do their job if no one cooperates? That's like calling the fire department about a fire, not giving them the address and then blaming them for the house burning down.
This.

Not saying the cops were always right in the way they handled things, but the protesters weren't innocent either.
 

joce

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#42
And there are other forums with people that live there that say they are sick of the screw the police mentality and what a mess it has been- not because of the police but the civilians making it unsafe for years.

I see people taunt the police in the town I work in. They hold it together well because I think these people need arrested and they let it go. Think the black officers get it worse to, like they heckle them for not being a thug like they think they should be. I heard a prison guard say it was like in Mexico working the border when your Mexican and sending them right back over and they say but your one of us?

I'm for fencing these areas in and letting them off each other if they do not want the police there. What option is there? Seriously the people I hear want to be able to do drugs in the street and get money any way they can are the ones claiming the police single them out and are spewing all kinds of hate.

The fix needs to be in the community.
 
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#43
First, I never said all of the protesters were innocent by a long shot.

THis area is NOT a horrible or bad and dangerous area. There were No murders for Ferguson this year at all...its not some kind of war zone area...or wasnt. I have so many people, white and black, in that area and surrounding that have many stories of the cops way overreacting. Yes, they need to change the way they treat people, ALL people and start respecting those the are to trust and serve.

And seriously! Fence and area off and just let it go???? I am sorry, that is disgusting. What area are you proposing to just fence off?

If you watched later in the protests, when the police stopped going overkill as much, the crowd was pointing out trouble makers, was making space for several officers to rush in an get the ones causing issues.

Yes, there are community issues as well, and being a snitch is often looked very down on (though that happens in many cultures and areas). But the fact is most of the people dont call the police because they dont trust them and they know they will likely be ignored or the police will bot be fair.

Why is it a white mentally ill man with a gun can be in a standoff with hours with police til they talk him down and get him safely a way. A black man with a steak knife is dead in under 30 seconds after the police arrive. Was shooting justified...legally yes (and this in obviously not about Ferguson...this shooting happend in the city) but when you watch the video...wow. HE was pretty far away and not charging etc. So this community, who just called the cops for help....end up seeing someone they know (every one knew he had mental issues) get shot like 9 times right in front of them. Why would you trust calling them for help when you cant trust them? ANd yes, that to me is the police's fault or at least their responsibility to fix since they have the power.

DOnt come into an upset (but at the time peaceful) group of shocked, angry and mourning people with dogs...dogs that are lunging and barking and yes, are still remembered by members of the community. Dont leave a body of a person, a human person, laying in the street for 4 hours. Dont start cherry picking what information you will be transparent about and make it look like you are trying to cover things up. Dont release an incident report that is time stamped 10 days after the event. Dont refuse to give your name to anyone making it possible for people to report the bad cops and cops causing issues at the protests. The ones who got in trouble were the ones caught on tape.
EARN some trust of the community BACK.

Oh and dont hire overtly racist and hateful cops. Are all cops, or even most cops that way...no, of course not! But one is more than enough to break trust.
 

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#44
Again. My point is what do they want? They don't want cops coming in. Fine. My response would have been to let them burn the town down. The response needed was to clear the place but suddenly that is bad police work.


And mental Illness throws another wrench into all of it. We have had several white men killed over the last several years and it will always be an issue. Also had a black male shoot and kill a cop and then he was shot and killed as well. Horribly sad all around. The man who killed the cop was schizophrenic and on meds did great but off them shot and killed a cop with a wife and several kids. You can not always end things peacefully and people will always second guess and say why wasn't this or that done when the best that could be done at the time was.

I can't argue against dogs and riot gear. I would have told family to quit before going into that crowd. Those people chose to be there while the police were doing their jobs.
 
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#45
So you are going to let a crowd of like 15-20 burn a whole town down? Its not that people dont want cops there...they dont want cops who call them ****ing animals there. See the difference?

Also, I think people dont realize....a lot of those building you see in the video feeds and pictures...in this particular several block radius there were already many closed and boarded up businesses. The looting was not extremely wide spread. I mean any of it is too much but it was not near the majority of people living there or protesting.
 

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#47
Then let them get the protesters out of there.

I guess I just can't fathom why it is ok to allow people to riot and not get them to disperse?!

This is not ok.
 
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#48
They werent rioting most of the time? Many of the riots happened AFTER the order to disperse or because of police instigating things. Tear gas was used on people that werent doing anything...and yes, we have video showing this. There was not really that much rioting....though I know many media stations seemed to make it seem like it was mass looting and riot every night..but it wasnt.

Protesters definitely are legally allowed to be there protesting. Its a fundamental right in this country. THey should not have to leave and yes, the vast majority was working very hard to keep it controlled and to point out any trouble makers. Depending on the police officers involved, sometimes that worked really well, sometimes it didnt
 

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#49
Not going to continue to argue about it.

They don't want the police around unless they need them. And they are just causing more issues. Riot, protest, whatever. Not productive!
 
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#50
Not going to continue to argue about it.

They don't want the police around unless they need them. And they are just causing more issues. Riot, protest, whatever. Not productive!


Who is they? Some of the police HAVE been reaching out and that does make a difference. They are talking with protesters, having conversations, treating them like humans.

There have not been continuing riots....there have been protest. Big difference between the two!
 

Dogdragoness

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#51
So you are going to let a crowd of like 15-20 burn a whole town down? Its not that people dont want cops there...they dont want cops who call them ****ing animals there. See the difference?

Also, I think people dont realize....a lot of those building you see in the video feeds and pictures...in this particular several block radius there were already many closed and boarded up businesses. The looting was not extremely wide spread. I mean any of it is too much but it was not near the majority of people living there or protesting.
Well, perhaps they should act like animals if they don't want to be called animals. Because I'm sorry but some individuals are acting worse than animals.
 

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#52
First, I never said all of the protesters were innocent by a long shot.

THis area is NOT a horrible or bad and dangerous area. There were No murders for Ferguson this year at all...its not some kind of war zone area...or wasnt. I have so many people, white and black, in that area and surrounding that have many stories of the cops way overreacting. Yes, they need to change the way they treat people, ALL people and start respecting those the are to trust and serve.

If you watched later in the protests, when the police stopped going overkill as much, the crowd was pointing out trouble makers, was making space for several officers to rush in an get the ones causing issues.

Yes, there are community issues as well, and being a snitch is often looked very down on (though that happens in many cultures and areas). But the fact is most of the people dont call the police because they dont trust them and they know they will likely be ignored or the police will bot be fair.

Why is it a white mentally ill man with a gun can be in a standoff with hours with police til they talk him down and get him safely a way. A black man with a steak knife is dead in under 30 seconds after the police arrive. Was shooting justified...legally yes (and this in obviously not about Ferguson...this shooting happend in the city) but when you watch the video...wow. HE was pretty far away and not charging etc. So this community, who just called the cops for help....end up seeing someone they know (every one knew he had mental issues) get shot like 9 times right in front of them. Why would you trust calling them for help when you cant trust them? ANd yes, that to me is the police's fault or at least their responsibility to fix since they have the power.

DOnt come into an upset (but at the time peaceful) group of shocked, angry and mourning people with dogs...dogs that are lunging and barking and yes, are still remembered by members of the community. Dont leave a body of a person, a human person, laying in the street for 4 hours. Dont start cherry picking what information you will be transparent about and make it look like you are trying to cover things up. Dont release an incident report that is time stamped 10 days after the event. Dont refuse to give your name to anyone making it possible for people to report the bad cops and cops causing issues at the protests. The ones who got in trouble were the ones caught on tape.
EARN some trust of the community BACK.

Oh and dont hire overtly racist and hateful cops. Are all cops, or even most cops that way...no, of course not! But one is more than enough to break trust.
No, you never said the protesters were innocent, but you have made it very clear you blame the cops for what has happened. So, okay, cops have to change the way they interact with people... How about the people change the way they interact with cops? Trust and respect go BOTH ways. According to you, people automatically assume the cops are untrustworthy and unfair - how would you like to have that automatically assumed about you by customers at your workplace because one of your coworkers acted like a jerk? Exactly how does one go about 'earning' trust when everything one does is viewed with suspicion and people refuse to cooperate?

If you watched later in the protests, Capt. Johnson's kinder, gentler approach didn't work that well either. People were still out there taunting and throwing things to the point where tear gas had to be deployed again, and he finally had to ask the peaceful protesters to only come out during daylight hours.

The man who was shot? Did anyone bother telling the police he had mental issues and wasn't a threat? If he wasn't a threat, why did one shopkeeper tell the dispatcher she'd locked her doors so he couldn't get in? Why didn't the shopkeepers who knew him just talk him down? Why even call the police if he wasn't a threat? Suppose the cops didn't do anything, what happens then? Should they have waited until he tried to harm someone else? He was ignoring their orders to put the knife down, he was moving around, and it sounds like he was trying for suicide-by-cop. I suppose you'd prefer one of the cops get stabbed first? What exactly is this 'power' the police have to magically fix situations with people who don't trust them, won't talk to them and won't listen to them?

I can't speak to the body being left for four hours, doesn't that fall on the forensic evidence being collected, rather than the cops just standing around to p*ss people off? What did the cops cover up except the name of the officer, which they released later, despite death threats? Look at the outrage that erupted when the video of Brown strong-arming the clerk was released. His friend confirmed later they'd robbed the store but all you heard was that the cops were assassinating Brown's character. No one was interested in the cop's side of the story, they only wanted his name and for him to be charged with murder. That's all they still want, just their side of the story told, not the cop's...

Cops wear badges and name plates for a reason, so they can be identified. For that matter, everyone has a cell phone, so if the cop refuses to answer, take a photo/video and turn it into the police supervisor. Oh, and maybe don't stand there screaming insults at the officers, hoping to provoke a reaction. Guess what, they're human, too, and were working 12 hour shifts.

Don't hire overtly racist and hateful cops? Don't you think they try not to hire those kinds of people? It only causes trouble for the cops later on, but do you really think some guy is going to confess he's a racist at his job interview? If there's no record of previous incidents (with some other PD), how are they supposed to know?

Here's an interesting video, although I wonder if the man will just be dismissed as an 'Uncle Tom'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOYFpP0anY&feature=youtu.be
 

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#53
Not going to continue to argue about it.

They don't want the police around unless they need them. And they are just causing more issues. Riot, protest, whatever. Not productive!
It has nothing to do with not wanting the police around and everything to do with calling out the police when they abuse their power and making sure that when they do abuse it, for those individuals to be punished. I have heard anti police rhetoric from ALL people of all colors. That is to be expected when it comes to being the enforcer of the rules and I have no doubt in my mind that being a police officer can be a very thankless job at times. However, being a police officer also gives you certain powers over other individuals and when that power is taken advantage of or used wrongly, it understandably pisses people off. A bad cop is different from a bad teacher or a bad lawyer. They have the power to end your life when THEY feel the situation is bad enough, not a power that should ever be taken lightly but to some cops it is. Almost anyone can be a police officer and that of course means your going to get the good and the bad. While I sympathize with police officers when they are lumped together with bad cops, I see it is needed as a constant reminder for them to keep their powers in check and not let it go to their heads.

If we look at what allegedly might have happen, I definitely see why people are very angry about it. There are many people who witness it and they all describe the same scenario. While it is still unclear what happen to start the confrontation, many people saw the ending. The man was running away, the police officer was shooting as he was running away, and when he turn around with his hands up trying to stop the police officer from shooting him, the police officer continued to gun the man down. If that is what TRULY happen, regardless of what started the confrontation, this police officer murdered this man and he needs to be put on trial for it. Now I'm not saying that is what happen nor am I'm saying the man is guilty. I think everyone who did not witness it MUST keep an open mind about it all until all the facts are out. Though I'm not surprised that the people in Ferguson already feel as though the police officer is guilty because there are plenty of people who did see it and no doubt they shared with the community what they saw, hence the outrage. I see nothing wrong with protesting as long as it is peaceful.

Eyewitness.
http://www.theroot.com/articles/cul...ess_accounts_of_michael_brown_s_shooting.html
 
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#54
The robbery had nothing to do with Brown being stopped by Wilson so it was irrelevant to the issue...and the store owner and clerked hadnt even reported it. The only reason it was released was to shift blame and cause people to say "see he deserved it" when its totally irrelevant. If you listen to the 911 dispatch call from ferguson to county asking for help, they said for crowd control. Dispatch heard about the officer involved shooting first on the news and had to warn their officers riding in that way. I dont mean cover up like conspiracy theory but as a protect our own and lets keep things as quiet as we can.

I do NOT think the cops are the only ones to blame but again, as I have said repeatedly through this thread, they are the ones ultimately responsible for setting the tone as they are the authority and in power.

Again the mentally ill person, I am not saying he was not a threat. He did have a knife, he was acting erratic and screaming kill me or shoot me. I get that. I get that legally they were justified in shooting. What I am saying is when you WATCH the video, and see how fast it is, its very disconcerting.

I think it is an overall across the country issue as way to many police brutality situations have been happening. I dont always blame the individual officers but I do definitely think its an epidemic. I think there is more and more us vs them mentality and taking sides when none should exist. I very much believe the Mike Brown shooting was instigated by the officer. I think that the majority of officers seem to not know how to de-escalate a situation and only know how to try and force a resolution quickly.

Being a cop is very hard and often a thankless job. I totally get that and have known some awesome officers throughout my life. Some really do go into it to help, to be ambassadors for others, to truly protect and serve. Unfortunately others join because it makes them feel bad-ass and powerful. Because they like being able to order others to do things. And because its a tight community, they often dont get thrown out or knocked down like they should, but their behavior gets excused or ignored. How many women have had horrible times trying to get protection from their abusive husbands when they are cops? Again, its not that all individuals are bad but the culture, to me, definitely does not help this situation at all.
 

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#57
The robbery had nothing to do with Brown being stopped by Wilson so it was irrelevant to the issue...and the store owner and clerked hadnt even reported it. The only reason it was released was to shift blame and cause people to say "see he deserved it" when its totally irrelevant. If you listen to the 911 dispatch call from ferguson to county asking for help, they said for crowd control. Dispatch heard about the officer involved shooting first on the news and had to warn their officers riding in that way. I dont mean cover up like conspiracy theory but as a protect our own and lets keep things as quiet as we can.

I do NOT think the cops are the only ones to blame but again, as I have said repeatedly through this thread, they are the ones ultimately responsible for setting the tone as they are the authority and in power.

Again the mentally ill person, I am not saying he was not a threat. He did have a knife, he was acting erratic and screaming kill me or shoot me. I get that. I get that legally they were justified in shooting. What I am saying is when you WATCH the video, and see how fast it is, its very disconcerting.

I think it is an overall across the country issue as way to many police brutality situations have been happening. I dont always blame the individual officers but I do definitely think its an epidemic. I think there is more and more us vs them mentality and taking sides when none should exist. I very much believe the Mike Brown shooting was instigated by the officer. I think that the majority of officers seem to not know how to de-escalate a situation and only know how to try and force a resolution quickly.

Being a cop is very hard and often a thankless job. I totally get that and have known some awesome officers throughout my life. Some really do go into it to help, to be ambassadors for others, to truly protect and serve. Unfortunately others join because it makes them feel bad-ass and powerful. Because they like being able to order others to do things. And because its a tight community, they often dont get thrown out or knocked down like they should, but their behavior gets excused or ignored. How many women have had horrible times trying to get protection from their abusive husbands when they are cops? Again, its not that all individuals are bad but the culture, to me, definitely does not help this situation at all.
Of course the robbery was relevant, it goes to Brown's mindset. HE knew he'd just committed a strong-arm robbery, he's now an adult, and the first thing he sees AFTER committing the crime is a cop?? Brown doesn't know that Wilson doesn't know about his crime, so what do you think his first thought was?? 'Oh, goodie, now I can be arrested and go to jail?'

Shift blame? How about Brown being portrayed as a choir boy and the cop being portrayed as a racist who decided to execute a defenseless black kid for no apparent reason? A cop who, until that point, had never even fired his gun on the job? Who never had any disciplinary issues? Had no complaints filed against him? People are claiming the robbery was out of character for Brown, but ignore that Wilson firing his gun, for the first time on the job, was also out of character. So he just decided to kill a black kid that day? Why? I suppose Wilson also bashed his face himself?

Yes, you've repeatedly blamed the cops for the community's mindset. What about the community? Nothing is their fault? What about the tone Al Sharpton is setting? What about the tone set by the New Black Panthers? No responsibility there? They get a free pass?

The cops have an 'us vs them' mentality? I won't naysay that but aren't you doing the same thing right now by accusing the cops of instigating the shooting, instigating the rioting, instigating the looting? The people who committed criminal acts bear no responsibility because, ultimately, in your eyes, it's the cops' fault? Is that what you're saying?

Yes, there are bad cops, and yes, they need to be weeded out, held accountable and imprisoned if necessary. However, no one should be railroaded on public sentiment or from the threat of violence.

Maybe Missouri should look into the law Wisconsin instituted - that any police-related death is immediately turned over to an outside agency to investigate, rather than letting the officer's department handle it, so there is no whitewashing or burying of evidence, on either side.

That law, by the way, was sponsored by a father whose 23 year old son was gunned down by a cop who had a record of being abusive and using excessive force. The family won a wrongful death suit but the cop responsible was still on the job, so the father used the funds from the lawsuit to mount his own effort to bring accountability to police departments. He wrote letters to everyone; politicians, news media, even Oprah, and couldn't get anyone to listen, until Serpico (yes, that Serpico) agreed to help him. Five police unions backed the proposed law, because, yes, even cops want the bad cops held accountable. It took years but that law is the first in the country to be instituted at state level. FYI: The man's son was white, the cop Hispanic.
 
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#58
Of course the robbery was relevant, it goes to Brown's mindset. HE knew he'd just committed a strong-arm robbery, he's now an adult, and the first thing he sees AFTER committing the crime is a cop?? Brown doesn't know that Wilson doesn't know about his crime, so what do you think his first thought was?? 'Oh, goodie, now I can be arrested and go to jail?'

Shift blame? How about Brown being portrayed as a choir boy and the cop being portrayed as a racist who decided to execute a defenseless black kid for no apparent reason? A cop who, until that point, had never even fired his gun on the job? Who never had any disciplinary issues? Had no complaints filed against him? People are claiming the robbery was out of character for Brown, but ignore that Wilson firing his gun, for the first time on the job, was also out of character. So he just decided to kill a black kid that day? Why? I suppose Wilson also bashed his face himself?

Yes, you've repeatedly blamed the cops for the community's mindset. What about the community? Nothing is their fault? What about the tone Al Sharpton is setting? What about the tone set by the New Black Panthers? No responsibility there? They get a free pass?
I dont have reason to believe Brown was worked up over the robbery. I watched the full tape of the robbery, including Brown at the front counter having some kind of exchange with the cashier (some people are saying money was exchanged but that is definitely not verified in any sense and likely he took at least something even if he paid for others). The owner nor cashier reported it and I am pretty sure there was likely a reason why and that Brown knew. Now, yes, that is a big assumption on my part...but so is assuming that Brown was all worked up over it.

And I dont know how many times more I can say this. Yes, there is blame on both sides. BUT the cops ultimately are in power and have the authority so yes, the onus is on them to start fixing it

It is more than this just one moment and that is the true issue. People didnt erupt because of one shooting but because it was the final straw. Again, that area is known for being very corrupt in law enforcement. Ferguson has a long history of extreme racial profiling. Again, up until this last chief of Ferguson (who took over 4 years ago) complaints werent even filed with the personnel records.
 

joce

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#60
I really don't think the minds are going to change here. I respect the opinions and am not stooping to calling names like a child. But very much agree with snark. I don't care what color you are or what your beliefs are, there are rules. Follow them.
I can't understand thinking the robbery is a non issue. And if no one seemed worked up it's probably because it happens so often and they let it go. How not to get shot as a store owner. I think that's horribly sad.
 

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