"Family" Training

cJw314

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#1
Greets!

Longtime lurker here finally posting! ; )

Brief background: I was raised with dogs - parents bred/showed Great Danes - and am finally almost ready to introduce my own family into the love of dogs! In the meantime, as a fervent researcher, I've been doing a lot of reading. However, I haven't seen much about others in the family "helping" to train a new dog in the home.

Should I be concerned about the excessive affection my wife and 5 year old daughter will certainly be lavishing on an adorable new pup in our home? :p


Thanks in advance for your input! : )

---
chris
 

Doberluv

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#2
Welcome!

I think it's a great idea, in fact, a must for everyone to take a little part in some aspects of training. As far as obedience, in the beginning, as the pup learns basics, I think one person needs to work with the dog primarily. As far as your child helping with simple commands, once learned, like sit or down in conjunction with the dog getting it's meal or some other thing he wants, that's really helpful. The child should be looked at by the dog as someone who also controls his resources and one with whom a positive assocation can be made. Your child walks by the dog food bowl, she can drop an extra special tid bit in there. With your supervision, your child can ask the dog for a sit and then put his food down or feed him some of it by hand. (carefully, like you feed a horse) LOL. Puppy teeth are sharp. This teaches the puppy that your child is no threat to his food being taken away. And in fact, is a great person to have coming close to his food. (adults too should do this a little bit) Your child can learn how to act around dogs and take a part in simple training.

Lavish attention is okay, but have the dog earn it most of the time. When the dog's behavior is how you like it, that's when to give the attention/affection. (don't have to carry it to the extreme and never give free attention, but don't give it when the dog is doing things you don't want) Save the good stuff for when you see good behavior. Watch for behavior you like...be observant and make a point to reinforce that.

Good luck. :)

Hope you browse through the training forum and other places. You might pick up some tips that you've forgotten about after all these years.
 

cJw314

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#3
Thanks for the quick response, Doberluv! :D

Good stuff!

It'll be interesting trying to explain to a 5 yo (and a 20 month old... and likely my wife - ha!) why we shouldn't love on the adorable fluffball puppy quite so much.

Good advice about the food; I hadn't quite figured out how to include the kiddos and this seems like a great way. It reminds me of the famed story of my older brother being bitten by our feeding pet german shep. Glad to have a plan for dealing with feeding time from the start!

I can't express how excited I am at the concept of a strictly positive reinforcement mindset going into dog ownership. My dad certainly was an 'old school' trainer, and as I learn more myself I see the issues with that. Fortunately, our Danes were always brilliant as both show dogs and pets and were never a problem. :phew!:

I guarantee you I've spent hours reading around the 'net and these forums... I'm living vicariously through other dog owners while I wait!


---
chris
 

Maxy24

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#4
Welcome to the forum!!

There is nothing wrong with the pup getting tons of affection from everybody just keep in mind when NOT to give affection, such as when the dog is chewing things (or people) he shouldn't be, is jumping up, is barking, is begging for attention, or is otherwise displaying behaviors you'd like to see less of. Make sure when they are done giving affection that they inform the dog (choose a word like "enough" or "all done" to mean that you are done giving attention for now) and then stop paying attention. The dog may beg all he wants so long as it does not work. Eventually the dog will learn when he hears those words nothing is going to make you change your mind so there's no point in trying.


So are you gonna get a Dane? Another breed? Shelter mix? or are you still researching?

Get some good training/behavior books my favorite is "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson.
Other good ones are "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller, "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell, Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier, and "For the Love of a Dog" by Patricia McConnell (not so much about training though, more about dog emotions and body language).
Though I haven't read them "Before and After getting your Puppy" by Ian Dunbar are supposed to be good for puppy owners, it's mostly about socialization I think. If you get this book try and get is before you get the pup. He uses luring, I prefer shaping (less chance of a dog becoming dependent on seeing the food reward in order to follow the command) but in any case it's not punishment based and you don't have to follow every single thing an author says.

And remember to start early, immediately even. On your very first walk bring the clicker and treats and start clicking and rewarding the dog for walking next to you. Know what rules you are going to have before the pup comes home and enforce them from the start. Most dogs jump up so teach the pup something else to do right away, choose what you want, he could sit on a mat off to the side until you release him or you could simply teach him to keep those feet on the floor but start rewarding/training those behaviors immediately.

Good luck, and I hope you stick around!
 

cJw314

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#5
Thanks for the warm welcome! I'm enjoying it quite a bit - TONS of good info, all in one place - AND the users are "link happy", a trait I absolutely cannot condone enough, since the 'net is such a vast resource. Use it as a reference!

I'm all about ignoring the "bad" behaviors; I've already started trying to explain how to battle dogs jumping up onto you to our 5 year old. My wife's uncle has an older lab mix that's been allowed completely free reign over their home and jumps on us every single time. The instinctual response from the un-trained is to pet the dog, giving it what it wants - attention. I've explained why that's not the best thing to do. My hope is an informed family will only help and not hinder the training.

Oh how I would love to get a big, dopey-eared Great Dane... but it's just not realistic in a suburban home, even if I do have a decent backyard. I was sold on a Beagle, but I know that our yard can't handle the infamous nose and wanderlust... so I'm beginning to think it'll be either a terrier mix or shelter mix pup.

I have every intention of training the pup as soon as possible... not sure how to suggest the dog do something other than jumping up when it's so ready to do so from the start, even if I can hopefully negate that behavior, but I have time and resources to have a solid plan before d-day. :p


---
chris
 

Doberluv

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#6
That's so exciting how you're looking so forward to getting a dog and kudos for doing your research into the best breed or mix for your family.

not sure how to suggest the dog do something other than jumping up when it's so ready to do so from the start,
The best thing I've found to discourage jumping is to immediately and consistently turn your back and keep your arms folded so he can't grab at those and abolutely ignore. Not one word, look or touch. Look out of the corner of your eye and wait for him to sit. (When he is taught to sit and reinforced for that a lot, he will almost certainly try sitting to see if that will work since the jumping isn't getting him anywhere. lol.) That's when you immediately squat down and give him attention. If he jumps up again, repeat. Don't let this slide. Everyone who interacts with him must be consistent. It won't take him long to figure out what works to get a greeting and what does not. This is for when you don't see it coming and he's already jumped. The best is when you prevent it and catch him before he jumps. But we're not always paying attention. If you see your pup flexing his muscles, thinking about jumping, intercept with the cue to sit. (this is often the first behavior the puppy learns) Then reinforce the sit with praise and a tiny treat. (if you have one available at the moment) If you can prevent him from practicing the behavior in the first place, you're light years ahead of the game.

For a while, you can cue him to sit in order to intercept him when he is about to jump. As time goes on, you can fade out the cue gradually if you like so you don't have to tell him every time. Greetings will require a default sit, in other words. I prefer not to have to tell my dogs what to do all the time and certain behaviors are automtic. Sometimes just waiting, ignoring and letting the dog guess until he comes on the right behavior makes them smarter. It really does enhance learning to sometimes not talk too much.

That's the beauty of positive reinforcement training. Dogs tend to try offering new behaviors more and the odds are higher they'll hit on the right one. They're not worried about trying something and getting scolded. After all, they are guessing for quite some time until they rule out other incidental behaviors they may be doing at the same time. So to help with that guessing, be sure to practice in different locations, but start with low distractions when you're teaching a new thing.

Your hand that you use to help him learn to sit by luring will become a hand signal, which can become more subtle as time goes on. Luring is not the only way to teach. Capturing spontaneous sits and reinforcing helps too. If you lure, you want to fade that out asap so the dog doesn't get so dependent on it. You can hold your treat in the non-luring hand after a few tries with it in the luring hand. Asap, keep your treats on a neary table or counter top, not on your person all the time. This is why you hear people say, "My dog won't do it unless I have a treat." He needs to learn that by not having the treat, he will get the treat. LOL.

Reinforcement is very important for any behavior you want to see repeated. And prevention of unwanted behaviors, offerning alternative behaviors, incompatible with the offensive behavior, and reinforcing helps squeeze out the rotten behaviors, while building on the ones you like. Incompatible, meaning ... (sitting and jumping can't be done at the same time)

And as I'm sure you already know, without ample romping and mental/physical exercise, dogs puppies have a hard time settling down enough to think.

Look up socailization during the critical period...ideas to do. That is like the very most important thing of all, imo, with a new pup. Also, get that book Culture Clash. (just my personal fav.) I'm really excited for the time when you get your new pup. Hope you stick around and keep us posted.
 

cJw314

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#7
Holy Replies, Batman! :yikes:


You like to type, don't you Doberluv? ; )

My wife wants a Scotty, as she grew up with them in her home. I grew up with GSD and Great Danes. Somewhere in between, with hopefully less grooming, is where I'd like us to land. Of course, with two young children, we certainly need to be careful about our breed choice.

Thanks for all of the advice; I've gotten into the habit of turning away from any jumping dog I encounter and am trying to get the family into it, just to help spread the knowledge. Call me an elitist, but nothing bugs me more than a dog having a human as a pet out of sheer ignorance. :mad:

I was aware that being consistent is important, but to this extent - as well as the proactive mindset of prevention by paying attention to the dog - are kind of new to me. It'll be interesting trying to keep that in mind...

I've been wondering about luring's place in clicker training; I understand the "purists" abhor it, but I can see how it might help to get the shaping process jump-started. I plan on doing some reading on it today, actually. From what I understand, there are plenty of arguments (literally!) just waiting out there for my enjoyment. lol

Is "socialization during the critical period" another book title, or just a topic to research? I'm familiar with the socialization part of it, but haven't heard it in that context...

Thanks again! I think you're as excited for me - if not more - than I am! :D


:edit:

Culture Clash is on request at my local library. : )

:/edit:
 

Doberluv

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#8
LOL. I like to type all right...about as much as the next guy. The thing is, I have a lot to say and don't want to leave out any details.:p

What I meant by socialization during the critical period is that it is a very, very, very important thing to do with any pup. The critical period is between birth and about 12 - 14 weeks or so. Where you get your pup is important....find out what he/she has been exposed to in the way of people (all kinds of ages, sizes, shapes, colors) other dogs, being in a house hold where he hears pots and pans clattering, vacuum cleaners running. If he's raised purely outside, he is not likely to have early exposure to these things and be shy and fearful later. When you get your pup, he needs plenty of exposure, meeting and greeting lots of different people, seeing different envrionments, objects, ground surfaces and I mean copious amounts. BUT....very important: All experiences need to be pleasant, not over whelming or frightening. So, things need to be planned and set up, not left up to chance...that some dog, for instance jumps him and scares the bejeezus out of him. No good. This window of time is short and if you miss it, this can cause permenant mal-adjustment in your dog. This window is present in ALL animals, but it can come in different lengths of time. It is a safeguard built into nature so that animals will learn what is safe so they're not afraid of everything and they learn what to avoid so they don't get eaten. The things they haven't been socialized to, later become things they avoid like the plague in the future. They didn't need them to survive thus far, so therefore they must be dangerous.

You need to weigh the safety issues as far as vaccinations. Some people are so paranoid about diseases, they don't socialize their puppies enough and forever their dog is mal-adjusted, fearful and defesive. You can ask around if there have been any cases of parvo where you take you pup. You can stay away from pet stores where too many dogs are or dog parks. Set up visits with dogs or puppies you know that are healthy and bomb proof/gentle/tolerant of puppies. You can wait until the first 2 of 3 series of vaccines are finished before getting into a puppy class, which is good for socilization and learning training tips. (if you find a good trainer)

Luring has it's pros and cons. Some trainers do abhor it. I use it with some things that I find more pracitical to use it for, but I use it judiciously and fade it as soon as I possibly can.

Well, I hope the library can get you Culture Clash. It is chalk full of good information.

There are so many cool dog breeds that I'm sure you and your wife will find a compromise and pick just the right one for your family. I am really excited. If you balk at this at any time, I'm calling your wife!:rofl1:
 

cJw314

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#9
Crystal clear explanation of socialization; thank you for the clarification!

I have noticed a few local dog trainers/shops, but haven't started researching them seriously yet. Perhaps there's a couple of people here @ chaz that may know some people around Louisville... o_O

I always thought that the hint of a treat - or maybe the scent of said treat - would be enough of a "lure", but I have absolutely zero experience with that so far. It'll be interesting to see how often I'll find it "useful"...

Culture Clash is due back in the library first week of march; they'll call and let me know to come pick it up. ; )

ME balk? Ha! She actually made a joke about getting a GSD this morning! I said if that was the case, we might as well get a Dane! Her issue has always been hair - and with 2 cats, we're already cleaning up enough of it - and a GSD certainly wouldn't help with that!

If it was up to me, we'd already have had a pup last year... I might have you call my wife to get _her_ to not balk. lol! :D
 

Doberluv

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#10
I always thought that the hint of a treat - or maybe the scent of said treat - would be enough of a "lure", but I have absolutely zero experience with that so far. It'll be interesting to see how often I'll find it "useful"...
You have to be careful not to bribe. And a lure is kind of almost a bribe. Letting your dog see the treat or know you have it on you in most cases is risky business.

Here's a good article on something that I've trained myself to make part of my life with my dogs.

26. Zen
 

lizzybeth727

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#11
I always thought that the hint of a treat - or maybe the scent of said treat - would be enough of a "lure", but I have absolutely zero experience with that so far. It'll be interesting to see how often I'll find it "useful"...
Call me a purist, but I use luring EXTREMELY sparingly. There are a few problems with it, one being that, as Dober said, a lure is a bribe; if you use lures too much, or incorrectly, your dog will learn that he doesn't have to do the behavior until he sees a treat ("show me the money!"). This is why many people say that training with treats doesn't work, because the dog will not work without seeing the treat.

The other problem is that it's often very difficult to "fade" the lure. Dogs are so in tuned with our body language, that it is very quick and easy for them to learn sign language cues; and sign language cues are the cues you get when you lure. But if they've learned with the sign language, it's very difficult for them to learn a verbal cue. So while luring is a quicker way to get a dog to try a new behavior, it's actually less efficient in the long run because you will spend more time trying to get that behavior on cue. At least, if you need it on verbal cue. It's WAY easier to start cueing the behavior with a verbal cue, and then later teach a sign language cue.

That said, I do use luring to teach a few behaviors. I use it for behaviors that would be extremely difficult for the dog to just do on his own or to teach using another method, and I only do it with dogs that are already clicker-savy and have been taught several behaviors without using luring. When I do train with luring, I'll use a treat lure only 3 to 5 times. After that, I hold my hand as if I have a treat in it, and "lure" the behavior again, clicking and getting a treat from my treat bag when the dog does the behavior. That way they learn pretty quickly that doing the behavior without seeing a treat will still get them a treat. Then I only use my hand to "lure" the dog about 10-20 times, before starting to fade the lure and switch to a verbal cue.
 

cJw314

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#12
Thanks for the reminder link to the Zen article Dober; that's on my "to read" list. ; )

I was of the mind that I wouldn't "lure" at all... until I really thought about it. It seems like Lizzy nailed it - bribery and difficult to stop using. I saw an interesting youtube vid last night that showed using a pointer that the dog knew to nose as a starting point to get the body placement near enough to shape it into the desired behavior. I thought that an interesting alternative to luring. Again, I could just be a simply ignorant idealist at this point. :p

It's most certainly not a tool I'll be using in the beginning; I don't see anything I need to teach a new-to-training pup that would require a lure. Not to mention starting myself off on bad habits... ; )
 

lizzybeth727

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I saw an interesting youtube vid last night that showed using a pointer that the dog knew to nose as a starting point to get the body placement near enough to shape it into the desired behavior. I thought that an interesting alternative to luring. Again, I could just be a simply ignorant idealist at this point. :p
I don't use a lot of luring, but I DO use a lot of targeting, like what (I think) you saw in the video. The first thing I teach dogs to do is to touch my hand with their nose; then I can use my hand as a target when I'm doing loose leash walking, recalls, and lots of other behaviors.

There IS, however, still a fine line between a target and a lure. I think the dog is more successful with a target because he's still focusing on what to do - find the target, then move to touch it - versus luring where he simply follows the lure and is probably not terribly aware of where his body is going.

But still, I do try to avoid targeting wherever possible. For example, a lot of people teach loose leash walking by using a target stick - they teach the dog to touch the end of the stick, and then put the stick where they want the dog's nose to be in loose leash walking position. This is a good way to keep the dog engaged with you if you're having a hard time keeping his attention or something, and I do think some dogs need the target. But for me, I'd rather just teach the dog that being in heel position at my side is a good place to be; I put the responsibility on the dog to find the position, and then I work hard to reinforce that position and keep his attention focused on staying there. If I don't have to use the target stick in the beginning, I can avoid having to fade it later on; it takes longer in the beginning, but I do believe it's more efficient in the end.

BUT, that said, keep in mind what your purpose of training is: for you and your dog to have fun and build a good relationship together, to give him some enrichment and an outlet for mental energy, and possibly to start competing in a sport in a year or two. As long as you're reaching those goals, it doesn't really matter whether you lure or target or what you do. :)
 

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