Electric Shock Collar Education

[Roxy's CD]

I don't know why anyone, in their right mind, would want to post about something, that in their opinion/experience is a positive, (not neccessarily e-collars) knowing that the people they're posting it for, will only pick out negatives and post holes in the theory/opinion.

It's not even neccessarily a debate anymore, no mind friendly debate.

It's definitely not education when someone posts a positive about a collar in their experience and it's ripped and torn apart, declared non-effective and dangerous.

Education in my opinion, doesn't always mean RIGHT or even that you have to believe it. I was taught in elementary school that the bible was the know-all end all of everything in life. Do I personally believe it, now or then? (not to make this religious) No I don't. But can I carry on a polite conversation with a Christian about their beliefs and morals? Yes I can. It doesn't mean that I believe what they believe, or even think it's right. Hearing what other people have to say and their thoughts on things when discussed politely is education to me.

 

[Buddy'sParents]

So then let's keep it educational and on topic...

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I find it sad that we have a member, who has this tool as part of her profesional training program, refusing to post in this thread for educational purposes.

I'm guessing this is aimed at me, given your comments on the "Valid Question" thread. I'm not sure what your motivation is - are you WANTING to use a shock collar and just don't know how to ask?

I have nothing to hide. I'm not afraid to discuss my use of the collar, because I know perfectly well what level I used and what effort I put into training her without the use of any aversives first. Here's the post where I described in detail my use of the shock collar:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50392&page=3

There you go! Are you happy now? Ask the others if they're happy now too .. *L*

By the way, you made yet another nasty insinuation when you said "a member, who has this tool as part of her professional training program" .. I have used this e-collar for one reason on one dog (my OWN dog) and it really has nothing to do with my "training program". It is simply a means to stop my dog from running off while being allowed to play and run in the woods and have a great time exercising freely. There was a structured set of exercises I went through to condition a behavior that would prevent the shocking sensation, but as far as part of a "training program" - nope, not really. I don't use the collar for my competition work. I don't use it to teach heeling or stays or competition recalls or retrieves or jumps or stands or scent articles. I've never used it on anyone else's dog nor have I ever offered to.

But heck, since people continue to suggest that my training methods are cruel and abusive, and continue to impugn my reputation as a trainer, maybe I SHOULD just plan on offering my e-collar to the general public. Then I can come back here and tell everyone how well it's worked on OTHER dogs.

Satisfied, blue?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

My poor abused dog, getting to run off-leash on the beach with her German shepherd buddy:

 

[NemoGirl]

I'm guessing this is aimed at me, given your comments on the "Valid Question" thread. I'm not sure what your motivation is - are you WANTING to use a shock collar and just don't know how to ask?

I have nothing to hide. I'm not afraid to discuss my use of the collar, because I know perfectly well what level I used and what effort I put into training her without the use of any aversives first. Here's the post where I described in detail my use of the shock collar:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50392&page=3

There you go! Are you happy now? Ask the others if they're happy now too .. *L*

By the way, you made yet another nasty insinuation when you said "a member, who has this tool as part of her professional training program" .. I have used this e-collar for one reason on one dog (my OWN dog) and it really has nothing to do with my "training program". It is simply a means to stop my dog from running off while being allowed to play and run in the woods and have a great time exercising freely. There was a structured set of exercises I went through to condition a behavior that would prevent the shocking sensation, but as far as part of a "training program" - nope, not really. I don't use the collar for my competition work. I don't use it to teach heeling or stays or competition recalls or retrieves or jumps or stands or scent articles. I've never used it on anyone else's dog nor have I ever offered to.

But heck, since people continue to suggest that my training methods are cruel and abusive, and continue to impugn my reputation as a trainer, maybe I SHOULD just plan on offering my e-collar to the general public. Then I can come back here and tell everyone how well it's worked on OTHER dogs.

Satisfied, blue?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

My poor abused dog, getting to run off-leash on the beach with her German shepherd buddy:

I don't judge you, I can't~ I don't know enough about you..
I just feel it wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't choose it, but who am I to say what works for you or that you don't have your reasons or great results. I think it's better not to judge until you walked a little in that persons shoes(JMO).. Andrea

 

[Buddy'sParents]

I have used this e-collar for one reason on one dog (my OWN dog) and it really has nothing to do with my "training program".

Warning...honest question coming...

Would you ever recommend it as a part of your training program? And, if you did (or at least would consider so) what would be the grounds for doing so?

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Warning...honest question coming...

Would you ever recommend it as a part of your training program? And, if you did (or at least would consider so) what would be the grounds for doing so?

I don't mind an honest question.

I would NEVER recommend a device like this purely as a positive punishment (i.e. zap the dog on a high level when it does something "wrong"). I would never offer the collar as a solution. But if I knew someone had gone through the same thing I had with my dog - the devotion to training, the thousands of recalls with positive reinforcement, the use of a large number of motivators, the in-depth evaluation of their dog's needs, etc. .. and they came to me and said "I need to know how you used the collar and how it worked for you to allow your dog to play off-leash" - well, I'd give them an honest answer. If they just wanted to use it for some competition behavior, I wouldn't be a part of it.

And if they decided to use it, I would insist they get the expensive collar with the range of 100 levels. I'd insist they use it on themselves first. I'd insist that they really understand the concept of low level stimulation and how to do the training steps. If their choice is to use the collar (not my recommendation, but their own choice) then I would want to see that they use it in the most humane way possible.

There's a woman who has come to my training classes who uses a shock collar on her dog and she's not allowed to use it in my class. I can't stop what they do elsewhere but I do control what happens in my classroom. Like everyone else, she worked her dog on a flat collar. In more than 15 years of working with people and their dogs, I've never had anyone use a shock collar in training with me.

I hope that answered your question .. *S*

Melaniei and the gang in Alaska

 

[Scott Campbell]

Hi - I am new here and kind of skimmed over the past post. I see this site is very anti e-collar. It appears more people are against the use of an e-collar because of being misinformed.

I know this is going to be an uphill battle but here we go...

I use these collars on a regular basis and my clients are extremely happy with the results. Of course I never get called to help a dog who is good or responds well to treats and praise. I get of course the wacky, biting, chasing kids, will not stop yapping dogs. That being said using the right technique will work and the dog is not in pain while I work with them. I would be out of work if I hurt the dog and I would never get a referral, more counterproductive than anything. I make everyone of my clients hold the collar in their hand and show them what level we will be working with the dog. Most people are amazed that there is such a low level of stimulus.

One has to first introduce the collar to the dog. Much like learning a new language. Most people take the collar and place the dog in its most stressful situation and then ZAP!! (Doesn’t work right?) It is much like if you were walking down the street and some guy came up to you and started yelling Japanese at you and then smacked you in the side of the head. You will either fight back or run away. The dog is also going to do two things 1.either run away to get away from the shock or 2. Find out what is hurting them and bite.

This has to be a slow introduction so the dog understands the language. When the dog understands what you are trying to say the rest is easy. Yes I know sounds stupid and confusing and I am sure (as I did) you are asking the question how is pressing the button not a correction. All I do is get the attention of the dog, it can not be compared to leash and collar.

Leash and collar training is if the dog does not do the action you correct, right? E-collar is on the other end of the spectrum and can not be used together. Imagine that leash and collar is Spanish and e-collar is German. If you put the two languages together to someone who is trying to learn the language it would not make sense. They would get confused stop trying and become very disinterested. The same thing will happen to a dog. I can not argue that I am making the dog do something but that is what obedience is, making a dog do something.

If you have a good dog who does what you say when you say to do it then the e-collar is not for you. I have seen plenty of dogs who do not need any kind of mechanical device to help them understand but have seen plenty more who do. The crazy dogs of the world can understand what you are saying if you speak the right language and can be sociably acceptable. The e-collar is not a magic wand and I DO NOT recommend anyone to go buy one to use on their dog without proper instruction from one who understands what they are doing.

 

[DanL]

Nice post Scott and welcome!

Mel, I don't think it was you who was being called for in Blues post. I forget the user name but I was thinking it's someone who uses an e-collar to field proof her retrievers. I completely agree with you on how you used the collar, as a last resort for a difficult problem.

 

[midnightbirdgirl]

IliamnasQuest, e-collars can be great training tools, I agree. But they are tools. Only a small part of the equation and are very helpful in the right hands. Someone who would abuse an e-collar should not have a dog at all. I used it on myself first, and only use it on the lowest effective setting. After seeing a neighbor dog get hit by a car right in front of me and after another neighbor's dog was killed the same way a week later, I am all for the appropriate use of said collars.
MBG