Electric Shock Collar Education

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#41
Using an e-collar for aggression is really about the worst thing that you can do. This does nothing to re-hab the dog but rather adds yet another stress in the presence of the trigger to his aggression.
 

qwkslvr

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#42
I personally have not used a e-collar. My dog is soo sensitive that I don't think it would be a good idea. I had a trainer come to the house to help with alot of issues that I was having and we used a choke collar. My dog basically just shut down. He would not do a thing when I had to choke him to get him to sit at the heel postion. God forbid I make him lay down. He actually tried to bite me when I was told to choke him into submission. It was ugly. I decided I would stick with treats. The dogs does everything I ask if I have a goody and am not threatening him with a choke. I use the choke collar when we walk and I have no problems. I mainly use it for my peace of mind because he goes "cujo" on me when he is on a leash with people and dogs. We have a few fear aggression issues that are getting better as he gets older.
 
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#43
My dog is the same way. The e-collar would not be good for her because she is so sensitive. Clicker training helps build her confidence. Though, I do have to ask, I thought chokes weren't supposed to be used during walks? I'm confused...

BTW, my dog has fear aggression issues around other dogs, too. I got her from a rescue, and I suspect she was not socialized as a pup. She gets very fearful in new situations and around new people or other animals. Around dogs, this translates into aggression to keep them away. I also think she was one of those dogs who are hit when they misbehave. How did yours get better with his fear aggression? What kind of behavior modification did you do with him?
 

Doberluv

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#44
Animalcrackers, May I recommend the book, Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons? It would be just the ticket for your dog. Excellent book and very highly praised by many behaviorists. IMO and people like her, an e-collar wouldn't be good for any dog. It just isn't right. I think your dog can get better with a step by step desensatization program, expertly described in that book as long as it is followed consistantly and worked on how she instructs.
 
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#45
Thank you for the suggestion. I've tried looking for it in local bookstores, but it seems I will have to ask a relative who lives in the US buy it and then send it to me. Sorry to veer off-topic; I'll start another thread with my problem so as not to hijack this one.
 

Doberluv

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#46
You can order online at bookwise.com. It's a reputable company. I order books all the time from them.

I don't think it's off topic. The book would be good for anyone. Don't worry about it.
 
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tessa_s212

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#47
Reading the title of this thread, I had expected to read wonderful, well written out replies actually educating others about the use of these collars. I was saddened when reading though all this, I only saw more bashing of the tool with very little educating.

Can't say that I'd ever use one, but that doesn't mean one can't be educated on it. As I've been reading elsewhere, new collars and methods are being evolved with these that make it much more humane and actually using the learning theory instead of just "zapping" away at your dog, but instead a careful, thoughtful(of the dog's own pain sensitivity), and more humane way to successfully use these collars. If this is an e collar education thread, this is what I'd like to hear more about, not just the same old bashing of the tool and the people that use it. If I'm correct, there is a member here at chaz that is active in hunting with their dogs that has used this collar in training? I'd be interested in hearing about this training. :)
 

Doberluv

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#48
Did you see the very educational link in the beginning of this thread Tessa? Feel free to add any link you may have as to how wonderful these collars are for dogs. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.....bashing of equipment included.
 
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tessa_s212

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#50
I'm now getting the feeling that only because I am not a closed minded bigot when ti comes to these collars, I'm now the "enemy".

Since when does being open minded and willing to hear another's opinion make someone bad or the enemy?

Would I go out and use one? Nope. *I* personally wouldn't have a dog that could handle it. But, perhaps I just have a bit of faith in humans, I think there might be some out there that use this kind of collar paired with as much/more positive reinforcement as they possibly can with a dog that can handle the correction to get the result that is needed. And though I push and push for positive reinforcement at ALL times, I'm not going to go out and call anyone that even THINKS this collar might not be equivalent to beating a dog to death a dog abuser. Yes, I am a positive reinforcement trainer. I'm sure everyone would praise me for this,.. that is until, I admit to being open minded and willing to hear the other side's arguement. Then I might as well be grouped among the "enemy" side.

Yes, I've read the article. But it only presents one side. As with any valid research, I'd like to be presented with both sides. If the argument against this collar is so valid, then what is there to fear about presenting the success stories when this collar was used with the dog's own interested in mind?
 

Doberluv

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#51
Oh come on Tessa. Don't start this again, about you being the "enemy." Isn't that just a little melodramatic? No one fears being presented with another view point. I, for one have read information during the course of several years, from both view points and have formed my opinion. Does that make me a "closed minded bigot?" Puleeeeze. It seems some on here think that making a informed judgement or opinion is politically incorrect or "judgemental." What a silly mis use of the word. What's wrong with being judgemental? It simply means making a judgement. Since when is there something wrong with that? Don't get all caught up in this polical correctness. That is just propaganda to stop people from thinking.
 

NemoGirl

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#52
Oh come on Tessa. Don't start this again, about you being the "enemy." Isn't that just a little melodramatic? No one fears being presented with another view point. I, for one have read information during the course of several years, from both view points and have formed my opinion. Does that make me a "closed minded bigot?" Puleeeeze. It seems some on here think that making a informed judgement or opinion is politically incorrect or "judgemental." What a silly mis use of the word. What's wrong with being judgemental? It simply means making a judgement. Since when is there something wrong with that? Don't get all caught up in this polical correctness. That is just propaganda to stop people from thinking.
Oh lord, I thought it was something I said:confused:
Everyone should have their own opinion, I dont see anyone making anyone an enemy or a bigot:confused:
Andrea
 
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tessa_s212

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#53
Oh come on Tessa. Don't start this again, about you being the "enemy." Isn't that just a little melodramatic? No one fears being presented with another view point. I, for one have read information during the course of several years, from both view points and have formed my opinion. Does that make me a "closed minded bigot?" Puleeeeze. It seems some on here think that making a informed judgement or opinion is politically incorrect or "judgemental." What a silly mis use of the word. What's wrong with being judgemental? It simply means making a judgement. Since when is there something wrong with that? Don't get all caught up in this polical correctness. That is just propaganda to stop people from thinking.
I can only sense what your words tell me to sense. And from your opinion of this collar and saying that I think it is "wonderful"(if you had a clue, you'd know otherwise), I could only suspect your opinion of me would be the same of others that have also chosen to be not completely closed minded on the subject. And with the attitude you've presented to me in this exact post, I can only suspect more that I am correct. Please, do not turn this into some petty thing accusing me wrongly of being melodramatic. There is a difference between melodramatic and simply stating a feeling, especially one at that without much emotion behind it{simply because bashing anyone could do will not affect me}. More or less, it was an observation made by your choice of words, the feeling I got behind them, and how I've seen others with different opinions treated as well. Can I not state with reason that your words made me feel as if you were making me apart of the enemy? Or is that now illegal?

It seems to be that the only person being defensive is you. Never did I call you a closed minded bigot or judgmental. Those are your own words. I was referring to MYSELF and my past behaviors and opinions as closed minded bigotry. It was only you that had applied it to yourself.

But, I do see now that my opinion is not appreciated and if I continue in this thread others will continue with personal slams hidden beneath words. Sad and unfortunate, but true when any kind of positive vs. punishment training that takes place here and anywhere else. Emotions run high, people are quick to be defensive(as shown), and opinions and judgments already formed. As I say, what's the point in discussing anything if both sides are not willing to learn? Until both sides are willing to learn, it is only two opposing opinions on their soap boxes, never really educating anyone. And, well... if its not for education, I'd rather not spend my time arguing. ;)
 

otch1

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#54
I'd like to referance my first post in this thread. It is near impossible, in my opinion, for many members to not approach this subject from an emotional stand point. (Unless... you are a trainer, behaviorist or have direct knowlege of having applied the use of an e-collar in training.) Tessa, you state you have an "open mind' about learning about the use of e-collars when training a dog. I am aware you are very active with your dogs and want to learn more about training, all methods of training. Doberluv is absolutely against the use of e-collars when training a dog, feels she's very well read on the subject and makes no bones about it . So, bring it on everyone. I believe that's what this thread is for. I am anxious to see factual, informative posts about studies done by qualified proffessionals on the pros and cons of this subject. I'm hoping to see more articles and studies.
 

otch1

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#55
In addition, Doberluv posted a very interesting referance with statistics listed by the British veterinary Assoc., British ASPCA, independant veterinarians, the UKC and FCI against the use of these collars. They are even banned in some countries. I did not know this! Another posted the "pros" of the use of these collars with information given by Randall Lockwood PhD, (Reasearch and Educational Outreach for the Humane Society of the U.S), Dr Janet Steiss DVM and the American ASPCA. I'd like to see more articles like these! I found it very interesting how the same organizations, Brittains ASPCA verses ours, their UKC/ FCI verses our AKC have such conflicting information and opinions given on the use of these collars. Much like Europe banning ear crops and tail docking, while we are opposed to a ban on these procedures here.
 
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#56
Yes, I've read the article. But it only presents one side. As with any valid research, I'd like to be presented with both sides. If the argument against this collar is so valid, then what is there to fear about presenting the success stories when this collar was used with the dog's own interested in mind?
I posted links to nine different articles about e-collars. Some of them are pro e-collar, some list pros and cons. I believe that the information in these articles are good enough to go against the information in the article by the group Advocates for Animals (the first link provided). It seems like they used mostly high shock settings for the studies and I found the article to be somewhat emotional. Like you, I would like to see more research on the effect of these collars when they are used properly. Statements like this in the article also made me confused: "Shock collars are intended to be used when the dog is out of sight, in which case the owner cannot see how the dog immediately reacts to the shock." :confused: And according to what I've been told, the burns are not supposed to be a result of wearing an e-collar --you are not supposed to leave it on a dog and, when it is on, it must be fitted properly.
 
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tessa_s212

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#57
I posted links to nine different articles about e-collars. Some of them are pro e-collar, some list pros and cons. I believe that the information in these articles are good enough to go against the information in the article by the group Advocates for Animals (the first link provided). It seems like they used mostly high shock settings for the studies and I found the article to be somewhat emotional. Like you, I would like to see more research on the effect of these collars when they are used properly. Statements like this in the article also made me confused: "Shock collars are intended to be used when the dog is out of sight, in which case the owner cannot see how the dog immediately reacts to the shock." :confused: And according to what I've been told, the burns are not supposed to be a result of wearing an e-collar --you are not supposed to leave it on a dog and, when it is on, it must be fitted properly.
Wow! I completely passed over your post! I apologize! I'll have to go back through those websites to see what I think. Thankyou. :)
 

Roxy's CD

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#58
To be completely honest, most of the e-collar websites I've visited that were pro-collar, we're pretty clearly biased and apparently pushing the collar a bit too much.

The people I spoke with when I was thinking about using the collar, were the same way. Use it for EVERYTHING. Every little correction you would normally give with the leash, voice etc, is now to be done with the collar. Their explanation for this, was so the dog would learn that the collar was in fact a correction.

With my dogs, I never take ANYONE's word as the bible. EVER. Positive trainer or evil harsh aversive trainer.

I take what I think is appropriate for MY dogs in each circumstance, and see if it works. If it does, fantastic! Apparently that makes no matter here on this board.

I can see what you mean Tessa, and you havent' even used an e-collar! LOL

I've used one, but I take no mind to the comments about being lazy, abusing my dog, putting her in fear etc, because the facts are this:

-my dogs don't bite people
-my dogs don't bite other dogs
-my dogs don't have issues like many of the questions on this board (Oh my dog's peeing in the house or oh my dog won't walk well on a leash or how do I train my dog to walk off leash... my dogs do all of the above, or don't when it coems to the first two! LOL)

Sometimes I wonder where this board is headed when moderators openly admit to bashing other members.

When I first came here moderators were always very polite, although clear in their posts. I don't think when I first came here I ever read a post from a mod (even if it was on the other side of the fence than me) that made me feel like it wasn't appropriate or un-polite.
 
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#59
I find it sad that we have a member, who has this tool as part of her profesional training program, refusing to post in this thread for educational purposes.
 
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#60
To be completely honest, most of the e-collar websites I've visited that were pro-collar, we're pretty clearly biased and apparently pushing the collar a bit too much.
Yeah, that's true with some articles. I guess you can never be completely rid of bias with regard to almost every subject on the planet. I did like the paper on modern electronic training devices though.
 

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