Electric Shock Collar Education

[Doberluv]

This thread is being started for the purpose of education and awareness. Here is one link which was posted by Dr2little in the other thread which was locked. If anyone has other links to informative sites, especially sites which are connected to solid, valid or reputable sources, that would be encouraged. Discussion and questions anyone may have is also encouraged, even if the discussions takes a turn toward describing alternatives or new ideas.

However, just to remind everyone, this can be a controversial subject and there are bound to be varying opinions. That is fine and normal. But we'll keep it in the confines of information; studies, experiments, even personal experience. And there will be no personal, direct hits against any one member. And added to that, no irrational defensiveness or delusional persecussion attitudes. Let's stick to information. That is, after all, what helps dogs. That is the goal.

Here is the first informative link. I encourage everyone to read it so you can form your opinion and even share with others.


http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.u...ockcollars.pdf

 

[otch1]

Hi Doberluv! Was unable to open this site? While I believe it's difficult, unless you're a trainer, behaviorist or have directly used an e-collar during training, to not approach this from an emotional stand point and will have a lot of people simply expressing personal opinions. Having factual information from studies would be great!! Is there something up with my computer, that I can't open this?

 

[Doberluv]

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/pdf/electricshockcollars.pdf

I just posted it again just in case. You have to have adobe reader. Do you have that? Bummer. We can see about finding more things like this which are easier to get at. I don't have time just now, but will be looking for more information...even both sides of the controversy.

Yes, I agree that opinions are best when begotten from not only an emotional standpoint, but from expert sources, studies etc.

 

[dr2little]

I'm glad to see this back with a more clear purpose and guidelines.

I have another link, a really good one with stats from very well known and respected sources. I'll post when I get back from work.

 

[Aussie Red]

We came to have a shock collar by happenstance. Came with a dog we got. We loaded it with new batteries and all took turns at having it on and receiving a shock from it. Very educational. They really pack a punch and I strongly stand against their use. It strongly reminded me of the time I used a butter knife to get toast out of a toaster and received quite a lesson there too. I can not see why anyone who professes to love an animal would then go to these types of means to torture it. Don't believe me put one on and start yelling see how you like it.

 

[Doberluv]

It strongly reminded me of the time I used a butter knife to get toast out of a toaster and received quite a lesson there too.

:yikes:

LOL. Sorry, just made me giggle a little bit.

 

[Aussie Red]

:yikes:

LOL. Sorry, just made me giggle a little bit.

I giggle about it too but the lesson is ingrained for ever lol

 

[Saje]

Ugh, I'm so paranoid about toasters. Even unplugged with a plastic knife I still cringe

Glad you guys started this thread. It's good for people to get all kinds information.

 

[sam]

As horrifying as some of the stuff out there is about shock collars I think I am more compelled when I ask for justification FOR their use rather than information telling me why not. I can't come up with an adequate justification to use pain, intimidation or force (barring a life threatening situation) in training my dog.There are other ways, ways that enhance the handler-dog relationship.

I am just now reading Suzanne Clothier's "Bones would rain from the sky" and am surprised at what an interesting and unique perspective the book gives- one I hadn't really thought of before inspite of reading zillions of behavior and training books.
I agree wholeheartedly that the relationship you have with your dog must be primary but I never really understood how that applied to my obedience behaviors and training. Anyone who finds this topic interesting should read her book.

I can't think of a time I have ever been forced to do something that resulted in me being a willing participant or even me doing a good job. The element of force changes things even without the element of fear or pain. I HATE having something forced on me, it makes me feel resentful, I think dogs are no diofferent. That's not what I want to resort to with my dog-- especially not when there are now much better ways available. I think once you have experienced the depth of relationship that comes with training at a very high level without resorting to the use of force, can you understand what it means.

I am in awe of the relationship built with my dogs that allows me to guide them and them to listen to me and comply even when they are at the highest amount of distraction and arousal and even though every instinct in their body tells them to do something else. I am moved to the point of tears to see my dog stop and turn on a dime away from chasing sheep because *I* quietly cued her to. I love that she is so enthused that she runs as fast as she can away from the sheep with me, beats me to the corner, lying herself down in preparation for another outrun. Her happy face and bouncing body saying "wahoooo hurry up! let's GO!" I am so touched that this incredible dog is willing to work WITH me when her and I both know it would be more fun for her to do her own thing.
When I compare that to the fear, sadness and hurt in her eyes when I have lost patience with her and done something that scared her -- not even hurt her. There is a huge difference in her attitude and our relationship for a period of time after that. Of course this is a dog that hasn't been trained with corrections, fear or any other real aversives so she is still very sensitive and has not built up the punishment callous and learned to hunker down and take it as the dogs I've trained with traditional methods quickly did. For me no competition goal, no off leash or distance obedience or anything else I can imagine is worth changing or potentially damaging that relationship with this animal that I love. That relationship is the foundation for everything we do. I have learned better ways and seen the results and I will never go back.

 

[mjb]

Is this discussion about using them for training or for confinement or both?

 

[NemoGirl]

Oh Lord I don't think I would ever use one..Maybe on my husband though..Sorry, okay it is a vey good thread lots of info..
Andrea

 

[sam]

Is this discussion about using them for training or for confinement or both?

It looks like the link Carrie posted talks about remote shock collars, electric fences and anti bark collars, so I would say feel free to state an opinion about any or all.

Great link BTW.

 

[Doberluv]

As horrifying as some of the stuff out there is about shock collars I think I am more compelled when I ask for justification FOR their use rather than information telling me why not. I can't come up with an adequate justification to use pain, intimidation or force (barring a life threatening situation) in training my dog.There are other ways, ways that enhance the handler-dog relationship.

I am just now reading Suzanne Clothier's "Bones would rain from the sky" and am surprised at what an interesting and unique perspective the book gives- one I hadn't really thought of before inspite of reading zillions of behavior and training books.
I agree wholeheartedly that the relationship you have with your dog must be primary but I never really understood how that applied to my obedience behaviors and training. Anyone who finds this topic interesting should read her book.

I can't think of a time I have ever been forced to do something that resulted in me being a willing participant or even me doing a good job. The element of force changes things even without the element of fear or pain. I HATE having something forced on me, it makes me feel resentful, I think dogs are no diofferent. That's not what I want to resort to with my dog-- especially not when there are now much better ways available. I think once you have experienced the depth of relationship that comes with training at a very high level without resorting to the use of force, can you understand what it means.

I am in awe of the relationship built with my dogs that allows me to guide them and them to listen to me and comply even when they are at the highest amount of distraction and arousal and even though every instinct in their body tells them to do something else. I am moved to the point of tears to see my dog stop and turn on a dime away from chasing sheep because *I* quietly cued her to. I love that she is so enthused that she runs as fast as she can away from the sheep with me, beats me to the corner, lying herself down in preparation for another outrun. Her happy face and bouncing body saying "wahoooo hurry up! let's GO!" I am so touched that this incredible dog is willing to work WITH me when her and I both know it would be more fun for her to do her own thing.
When I compare that to the fear, sadness and hurt in her eyes when I have lost patience with her and done something that scared her -- not even hurt her. There is a huge difference in her attitude and our relationship for a period of time after that. Of course this is a dog that hasn't been trained with corrections, fear or any other real aversives so she is still very sensitive and has not built up the punishment callous and learned to hunker down and take it as the dogs I've trained with traditional methods quickly did. For me no competition goal, no off leash or distance obedience or anything else I can imagine is worth changing or potentially damaging that relationship with this animal that I love. That relationship is the foundation for everything we do. I have learned better ways and seen the results and I will never go back.

It looks like I'm stalking you. LOL. I keep following you around and quoting you. But I can't help it. Everything in your post is from my own heart. Your words are my words. (only no one has to suffer another one of my word salad posts. lol)

Oh, and I absolutely LOVED that book by Suzanne Clothier....wonderful, wonderful book. That was one of the earlier books I read. I highly recommend it to anyone.

 

[animalcrackers]

What about these articles? I've never used an e-collar in my life, so I don't really have the authority to talk about it, but hopefully these links are somewhat informative.

http://www.coondawgs.com/articles/ecollars.pdf
http://www.tarheelcanine.com/articles/Obedience Training/OffLeashECollar.pdf
http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/Robinson_06/robinson_706.html
http://www.dogonittraining.com/articles/moderndevices.html

This one is very interesting, to say the least. I always believed that e-collars aren't for use in aggressive dogs.
http://www.loucastle.com/rehab_training.pdf

 

[sam]

What about these articles? I've never used an e-collar in my life, so I don't really have the authority to talk about it, but hopefully these links are somewhat informative.

http://www.coondawgs.com/articles/ecollars.pdf
http://www.tarheelcanine.com/articles/Obedience Training/OffLeashECollar.pdf
http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/Robinson_06/robinson_706.html
http://www.dogonittraining.com/articles/moderndevices.html

This one is very interesting, to say the least. I always believed that e-collars aren't for use in aggressive dogs.
http://www.loucastle.com/rehab_training.pdf

I guess if you google search you can find arguments to substantiate just about anything in the name of training. Like anything else, I guess it's up to the individual to consider the sources, look at all the information out there and decide for themselves what they should do to and with their dog.

There is excellent behavioral science out there, reproduced many times over showing the problems with punishment in training and also that there are far more effective methods which also happen to be humane, yet there are still plenty of people who choose to use harsh aversives.
-Can harsh punishment and aversives suppress behavior and be used in dog training to control and punish an animal ? YES.

-Does it work as well as other methods? NO.

-Are there very serious possible side effects that come from training using physical punishment? YES.


And you say that you thought adding pain and punishent to an aggression situation isn't recommended and you are RIGHT. Sadly that doesn't mean there aren't people out there using it. Do they often suppress the dogs outward siogns of aggression? YES. Have they addressed the underlying cause of the problem or made the situation safer? NO. All they have done is removed the ticker from the bomb.


I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but when species far less biddable and trainable than dogs have been successfully trained to do all sorts of tasks far more challenging than what we ever ask of our pet dogs, why aren't we looking to THOSE methods and saying how can I use that to help me train my dog ?
I also don't understand how it so so socially acceptable to cause anxiety, fear and pain to our pets or working/sporting dogs in the name of training. How can our need to control our dog override our love and compassion for him to that extent? No matter how many debates or discussions we have, I'll just never understand that.

 

[sam]

It looks like I'm stalking you. LOL. I keep following you around and quoting you. But I can't help it. Everything in your post is from my own heart. Your words are my words. (only no one has to suffer another one of my word salad posts. lol)

Oh, and I absolutely LOVED that book by Suzanne Clothier....wonderful, wonderful book. That was one of the earlier books I read. I highly recommend it to anyone.

Heh heh. We are two nuts from the same tree

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Since Suzanne Clothier has been mentioned ..

It might interest people to know that she is an advocate of using a variety of equipment, based on each individual dog and the sensitivity or toughness of that dog. She believes, much as I do, that some dogs need to have more available correction.

Her article on Prong Collars: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Some quotes:

"To understand how the prong collar (or any collar) works as a stimulus, you must first understand how the dog learns. Briefly, the dog learns when the advantages and disadvantages of his actions are spelled out in black and white. When the choice between advantage and disadvantage is clearly defined, the dog is able to make his decision without stress or confusion. Training difficulties arise when the trainer has not made clear to the dog where his advantage lies. It is the trainer's responsibility to see that the stimulus, be it inducive or compulsive, is sufficient for the dog to clearly perceive his advantage, which is to respond to the handler's wishes."

"It is also the trainer's responsibility to know when to escalate the stimulus, and when to choose a new one if desired results are not achieved."

"All dogs perceive physical stimuli differently. Some dogs are physically sensitive, some are not. Distractions or all-consuming activities also can alter that sensitivity."

"Breed characteristics play an important role in terms of physical sensitivity. Many breeds were selectively bred to be physically insensitive."

"What is appropriate for one dog is not necessarily right for another. The skilled trainer is conscious of the internal and external forces that affect the dog's response to stimuli, and can make an informed choice as to method, equipment and motivation necessary for each individual."

"The prong collar, or any other properly applied stimulus, allows the dog a clear choice. All collars work by creating unpleasantness for the dog---the collar tightens, which the dog dislikes, and therefore he is motivated to act in such a fashion that the collar does not tighten."

These statements could also be applied to the use of an e-collar.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
.. who purchased a dog from Suzanne Clothier ..

 

[blue]

Ok the article Iliama posted was from 1988, could Sam or somebody post the copyright/original print date for "Bones would rain from the sky"?

 

[Zoom]

September 2002

 

[blue]

Thanks Zoom.