Dual/multiple sired litters

[Tortilla]

So I'm actively looking for breeders for my next puppy (aiming for around 2013/2014, so not anytime imminent). I'm still fairly new to the breeder thing, because 2/3 of my dogs are rescues and we got Sally when I was eight. SO!

I stumbled upon one breeder who only breeds multiple sired litters because they claim that it basically speeds up their breeding 'time line.' They say that by using multiple sires they are able to accomplish the desired breedings in one litter rather than two or three. They said that 'what would normally take three or four years can be accomplished in one.'

I'm not interested in this particular breeder (for other reasons), I just sort of stumbled upon this and didn't really know what to make of it.

What do you make of it? Is this common breeding practise? My apologies if this is a stupid question, but I hadn't really heard of this before (like I said, still fairly new to the whole breeder thing). I mean I obviously knew it was possible, just wasn't sure how common it is.

 

[grayada1]

I am no breeder but it seems that would make it hard to tell which sire produced the desired offspring. If you like some of the dogs from a litter you wouldnt know which sire to breed again, you would have to use all the same dogs. Im sure there would be some situations where you could tell for sure, but it seems like it would make it more confusing.

 

[SaraB]

I know of some breeders who have done this. You have to genetically test the puppies to determine the sires for any registration though.

 

[Beanie]

Yep, if you do two sires in one breeding, you have to DNA test the puppies to find out who their sire is.

I have heard of it done before, but I would disagree that breeding two sires (and doing it every breeding) in some way speeds up your breeding time line. There are people who do two sires but all the pups end up only being out of one sire. There's no way of knowing how many pups you'll get that are from either sire; it's unlikely to be 50-50. If you had four and it went 25-75, that's not really advancing the breeding program, is it? You'd be assuming that ONE pup would be the pick to continue breeding from... and while it can happen that way, I wouldn't call it very likely. You might as well have only bred the one sire.

There's nothing wrong with it as a breeding practice though I do find doing it regularly to be a bit odd, particularly since it seems they're going off some strange ideas that lack much science as to why they prefer to do it each breeding...

I'm not sure I would call it common but it does happen. You will also find people claiming it happens "all the time" but that people don't DNA test and lie on their papers about the sire...

 

[Shai]

As SaraB said, you have to DNA the pups so yes you do know which dog sired which pup.

I do know breeders who've done this or plan to. Usually it's because they only breed a girl so many times (<=3 is normal for FCRs with 3 being not very common) and they want specific bloodline crosses and want to improve their chances of getting that cross in without having the bitch carry an additional litter. It's certainly not common though, and there's no guarantee you'll get pups from both sires.

 

[Romy]

I've mostly seen it done in breeds and lines that tend to produce large litters. It wouldn't make sense to do dual sires in a breed where 2-4 puppies is normal. But if you work with a breed where there isn't as much demand for pets, and have dogs that tend to produce 9-12+ puppies in a litter then it starts to make a little more sense.

It's still a gamble (all breeding is) and the paternity testing is an added expense, but for some people only having to put their female through one pregnancy instead of two and producing half as many puppies to try and place with other people makes it worth trying out.

 

[Aleron]

Nothing wrong with dual sire litters at all for a buyer. By time you get your puppy, you'll know which is the sire. Of course, it could be an issue if you really like one sire and not the other.

From a breeding standpoint, there are pros and cons like anything. The biggest issue I have seen with it would be that it doesn't seem uncommon for the litter to be very unevenly split. I knew a litter of 14 Belgian puppies from a dual sire litter and all but one had the same sire. Many of the other larger litters (8+ puppies) I've heard about had 1-3 puppies by one sire and the rest by the other. So you aren't necessarily getting a "two in one" doing a dual sire breeding. You're not likely to actually have a litter's worth from either sire and that gives you a lot less to choice from both.

 

[Fran101]

I'm fine with it as long as they do DNA testing and allow me to choose which sire I want a puppy from.

That said, it does kind of suck sometimes I imagine, because you can't be SURE there will be enough puppies from the sire YOU LIKE for you to be able to have one + other people ahead of you on the waiting list.

 

[pitbullpony]

I've read that if you do a surgical implantation of one sire into one horn and one sire into the other; it improves the odds; expensive all the way round though.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Nothing wrong with dual sire litters at all for a buyer. By time you get your puppy, you'll know which is the sire. Of course, it could be an issue if you really like one sire and not the other.

From a breeding standpoint, there are pros and cons like anything. The biggest issue I have seen with it would be that it doesn't seem uncommon for the litter to be very unevenly split. I knew a litter of 14 Belgian puppies from a dual sire litter and all but one had the same sire. Many of the other larger litters (8+ puppies) I've heard about had 1-3 puppies by one sire and the rest by the other. So you aren't necessarily getting a "two in one" doing a dual sire breeding. You're not likely to actually have a litter's worth from either sire and that gives you a lot less to choice from both.

I think for this reason I would never bother with it if I were to be a breeder. I wouldn't consider it to be unreputable, just... Not very advantageous.

 

[Kat09Tails]

I know a few who have done it (on purpose) because to them it took the bitch out of commission overall for less time (this can be important if you have a performance bitch actively campaigning or needed on a job), they wanted a side by side evaluation of the studs used since memory changes things sometimes, and the amount of time to raise a properly socialized large litter is tremendous and doesn't always meet real life needs.

I know for the people who did it the cost was heightened considerably but most considered it a huge asset to their breeding program, litter evaluation, their available training schedule and needs in the case of those raising puppies for real work.

 

[OwnedByBCs]

A Ridgeback breeder I know just did a dual sired litter, and it ended up being about 70% one sire, 30% the other. Nice puppies from both sires. I have no problem with it, I just think in my breed I probably won't ever have big enough litters to make it worth while. But, if you have a bitch you might only want to breed once (like a leased bitch, or an older bitch) then having the option to have two sires can be extremely advantageous.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

I know of people who have done it. Either the bitch is getting older, and they only want to breed it one more time, or a sire theywant to use has questionable sperm motility.. They may dual sire hoping for the best, but I agree with the above, unless you are breeding a breed with larger litter sizes, it may not get you what you wanted. And often I hear splits of 1,2 or 3 pups from one sire (or none) and lots from the other sire.. so unless one puppy was stunning from the smaller sired litter, you may have achieved nothing for your program.

 

[Shai]

Yeah I mean in the case of FCRs you are looking at a norm of 7-8 pups in a litter. Assuming you really like both studs (or else why would you go through the added expense, etc.) you're really not going to lose...worse case scenario you end up with most of the pups from one sire and you have a lot to choose from on that side. So you're not any worse off than you would have been if you bred to only one stud. And if you get lucky and you get a nice split of 3-5 pups from each sire then you have a few to choose from if you want to keep one from each.

 

[OwnedByBCs]

Keep in mind even if you only get two or three pups from one sire, they could be perfectly nice puppies. My last litter was only two and both turned out beautifully. Quantity may increase your odds of success but if you're choosing the right stud who compliments your bitch, you're probably going to get nice puppies regardless of the quantity. Uno, the. Westminster BIS winning Beagle, was a singleton