Dog Whisperer

Love That Collie

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Great link dr2little.
I watch The Dog Whisperer, mainly because I like to see what types of problems other people are having with their dogs. But each and every episode I view I am always left wondering about his so-called "Pack" at the "Dog Psychology Center". I have seen the majority of his "pack" shown in these shows as mostly the very same dogs. Dozens of them.

What I'm left wondering is, why doesn't he find homes for these so called rehabilitated dogs? I would think they would be better off with an individual or family as the owners instead of living with dozens of dogs all the time. I know some of them are his "personal" dogs that reside at home with him I presume but not all of them I wouldn't think? I know some are adopted out but I see dozens of the SAME dogs at that center living.
 

Doberluv

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What I'm left wondering is, why doesn't he find homes for these so called rehabilitated dogs?
If he did that, he'd lose a big part of his gig. Those dogs are props for his stage, to be exploited for the purpose of making him look good.....that he can control 50 dogs...and that he supposedly "rehabilitated" all of them to live happily ever after.

I have seen the majority of his "pack" shown in these shows as mostly the very same dogs. Dozens of them.

It's insane Love That Collie....that he even calls it a pack! LOL. A pack (of wolves) normally is Pa, Ma and the kids, maybe a stray or two....a very small and loose little family. Pops heads the family just like the male of many species and to exaggerate his concerns about daily life is ridiculous. Alpha wolves don't go around, telling the others what to do all the time. He couldn't care leess about anything but hunting, distributing food, breeding and seeing to it that Mom and pups are fed.

A pack is most certainly not made up of 50 animals, as Cesar loves to boast about all those dogs in that concrete, chain link fenced, prison. Secondly, domestic dogs are not pack animals. Thirdly, we are not dogs or wolves. Pack animals are conspecifics, members of the same species. Social characteristics or life style is not the same thing as packing behavior. A true pack is lighyears away from what he and other uninformed people think of as a pack. The behaviors which are labled, "dominance" are not dominance. What earthly reason would a scavenging animal (dog) have to give up his food being given to him by a human and instead, go hunting for deer?
 
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sam

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Fabulous link Doc. Why is this world so full of ignorance??????

Because information about better methods just isn't out there for the general public to see-- that's what really bugs me the most about all this.
I LOVE dogs. I tried REALLY HARD hard to be an informed dog owner and train my first dog well. Who knew there was any science to that? I read a book that was recommended to me called "Good owners, great dogs" by Brian Kilcommons. Hilarious, well written book (waaaaay better than Cesar ;) ) Brian Kilcommons uses traditional methods and he uses them well but it's still full of misinterpretations and misunderstanding about the way dogs learn, think and what motivates them-- but it all seemed to make so much sense. I bought in hook line and sinker. The other trapping is it works-- to a degree. You do see a decerease in some unwanted behavior especially at first. Then that darned old dog develops the punishment callous and those leash pops stop working.
I'm not stupid- I was an ICU nurse and a cometitive show jumper and I was very motivated to train my dog well, but go down to your book store and the great stuff isn't there! All the old outdated stuff sure is.
I assumed "positive dog training" was a bunch of wussy, bleeding hearts bribing dogs to behave with treats :p because they couldn't be tough enough to correct and discipline a dog-- seriously-- that was my perception.

People aren't choosing between different methods I don't think-- I think most poeple get a dog and think trainihng is common sense. If they run into trouble oir decide they should take a class, they go to whoever is closest, not realising there are different mthods to choose from and all that goes along with that.

I can't judge people too harshly - I didn't know any better either. Now I do but for me it took seeing it to believe it. I don't think reading on an inetrnet forum would have convinced me. I thank my lucky stars I found the trainer I did when I did.
 

Oski

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Great link dr2little.
I watch The Dog Whisperer, mainly because I like to see what types of problems other people are having with their dogs. But each and every episode I view I am always left wondering about his so-called "Pack" at the "Dog Psychology Center". I have seen the majority of his "pack" shown in these shows as mostly the very same dogs. Dozens of them.

What I'm left wondering is, why doesn't he find homes for these so called rehabilitated dogs? I would think they would be better off with an individual or family as the owners instead of living with dozens of dogs all the time. I know some of them are his "personal" dogs that reside at home with him I presume but not all of them I wouldn't think? I know some are adopted out but I see dozens of the SAME dogs at that center living.

FOLKS COME ON, are you serious???! :yikes: Why would he try to find homes for dogs that are perfectly happy and healthy and well taken car of where they are??? Wouldn't that just leave one less home for one more dog that is in need of a home before it gets put down??? I have a feeling that some of us are really running out of things to slam this guy on and had to resort to pointing out something that not only isn't a problem, but a great thing for those dogs. Dogs love being with other dogs...that is why they are pack animals. I digress....:rolleyes:

and yes they are pack animals still....come to Detroit where there are wild dogs running loose...you will find them together like a bunch of scruffy coyotes...we just domesticate the dogs that we take to evolve into our families with or without other dogs around...but given their choice, they would most definately pack up.
 

Doberluv

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Sam, I don't blame people for not knowing when they are cut off from information or satisfied with what they're doing. There wouldn't be the incentive.

I too, use to train, using the more compulsive way. But I have somewhat of a background in animal behavior, (Pavlov, the Skinner box, wolf behavior and other animals) although it's been years. Back then it wasn't applied so much to dog training. When I started looking into a better way to train, some time later, I spent literally half the hours in a 24 hr. day, 7 days a week, for about 6 years, obsessively reading about "positive reinforcement," among other things "dog." And I bought it hook, line and sinker and started applying it to my own dogs and seeing day where there use to be night.

I still have a lot to learn and some old habits combined with my own personality which has loads of room for improvement. However, the information is there and the best of the best back it solidly and compellingly, not to mention first hand observations. The education is there for the taking.

It's just a darn shame that CM is doing what he's doing and people are unfamilar and somewhat detached from their dogs (as dogs) or they'd surely see what body language and expressions are on those animals he works with. Maybe that comes with having been obsessed and fascinated with dogs for many, many years, that connection to see the emotion in dogs, even if we can't know what is positively or completely in their minds.
 

Doberluv

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you will find them together like a bunch of scruffy coyotes...we just domesticate the dogs that we take to evolve into our families with or without other dogs around...but given their choice, they would most definately pack up.
Being social does NOT equal a pack. Coyotes aren't true, constant pack animals either. There are functions and even seasons, food sources at the time, which determine a pack and primary scavenging animals do not engage in most of those functions. Further more, we are not talking about wild canids.

Our dogs living in our homes do not engage in functional pack behavior.
 

Groch

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dr2little,

I think it undercuts your argument a bit to say in one sentence I find it frightening to see people here, particularly dog lovers, suggest that our distaste for his "methods" is sour grapes. and to follow in the next paragraph with FYI, Cesar is far too busy with celeb. dogs to bother with poor unadoptable rover sitting on death row at the pound.

I am similarly perplexed by the opening paragraph of the link you provide. This advocate of "Positive rewards based training for dogs" begins by asserting Dog training is a divided profession.......Dog training camps are more like Republicans and Democrats, all agreeing that the job needs to be done but wildly differing on how to do it. The entire remainder of the article and the links indicate, as does Doberluv, that anyone disagreeing with the author are "ignorant"

Worse than ignorant, the "Bark" article suggests, Millan fans represent a luddite (Republican?) rebellion against science and the educated elite who wish to control, dominate, and punish something, anything in their world; and if it is a defenseless dog, so be it.

Well, I am a liberal Democrat. grad school graduate, and do not wish to dominate or punish anything (perhaps why I feel fine owning a very polite poodle).

This thread was started by someone who WAS aware of the criticism Caesar Millan had received. On viewing the show and they did not see the actions taken and philosophies he espouses resulting in a string of cruelly brutalized dogs with vacant stares who are no longer able to enjoy human contact.

Sorry, but I still don't see it either. I do see a show that in every episode underlines the fact that their are far more bad owners than bad dogs and encouraging them to seek professional assistence.

I guess I am just ignorant.
 

RD

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Define true pack animals, though. What mammals exist in a rigid, constant pack with clearly defined social hierarchies? Sheep hang out in a herd, but nobody is the "boss sheep". Cattle do the same thing, without a clear, constant alpha.
 

Doberluv

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Opinions are opinions and everyone has a right to them. If people think what Cesar, (just a man who has no training or education in animal behavior, canine behavior specifically) does has more merit than all the sources on that link, (and those aren't the only people) all the proof shown in how positive reinforcment works better, all the science, the research, the trials, controlled studies, yeras of observation, the brain chemistry comparrisons which demonstrate biochemical and stress hormone levels in various contexts, causative stimuli and emtions,etc, etc, etc...then, yes, I have my opinions about their opinoins.
 

Oski

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Being social does NOT equal a pack. Coyotes aren't true, constant pack animals either. There are functions and even seasons, food sources at the time, which determine a pack and primary scavenging animals do not engage in most of those functions. Further more, we are not talking about wild canids.

Our dogs living in our homes do not engage in functional pack behavior.

Im talking about wild dogs because we are absolutely talking about how dogs think and choose to live...and given that choice...as they would have in the wild, they would resort back to their ancestry ways...the wolf....(is that a better canid to compare too?)...they are all the same.

can·id [kan-id, key-nid] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
any animal of the dog family Canidae, including the wolves, jackals, hyenas, coyotes, foxes, and domestic dogs
 

Oski

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dr2little,

I think it undercuts your argument a bit to say in one sentence I find it frightening to see people here, particularly dog lovers, suggest that our distaste for his "methods" is sour grapes. and to follow in the next paragraph with FYI, Cesar is far too busy with celeb. dogs to bother with poor unadoptable rover sitting on death row at the pound.

I am similarly perplexed by the opening paragraph of the link you provide. This advocate of "Positive rewards based training for dogs" begins by asserting Dog training is a divided profession.......Dog training camps are more like Republicans and Democrats, all agreeing that the job needs to be done but wildly differing on how to do it. The entire remainder of the article and the links indicate, as does Doberluv, that anyone disagreeing with the author are "ignorant"

Worse than ignorant, the "Bark" article suggests, Millan fans represent a luddite (Republican?) rebellion against science and the educated elite who wish to control, dominate, and punish something, anything in their world; and if it is a defenseless dog, so be it.

Well, I am a liberal Democrat. grad school graduate, and do not wish to dominate or punish anything (perhaps why I feel fine owning a very polite poodle).

This thread was started by someone who WAS aware of the criticism Caesar Millan had received. On viewing the show and they did not see the actions taken and philosophies he espouses resulting in a string of cruelly brutalized dogs with vacant stares who are no longer able to enjoy human contact.

Sorry, but I still don't see it either. I do see a show that in every episode underlines the fact that their are far more bad owners than bad dogs and encouraging them to seek professional assistence.

I guess I am just ignorant.

no you're not ignorant...I think it is ridiculous how this post has turned into connecting training preference based on your political party preference.

I am a libertarian/republican...which is pretty much opposite of you, yet we seem to be on the same page with this debate..lol

So, see guys....you really can't go there.
 

Doberluv

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Im talking about wild dogs because we are absolutely talking about how dogs think and choose to live...and given that choice...as they would have in the wild, they would resort back to their ancestry ways...the wolf....(is that a better canid to compare too?)...they are all the same

They are NOT the same as wolves even though they are indirectly and distantly related to them. Naturally, they share DNA. Domestic dogs would NOT make it in the wild. Research of (archeological and DNA) findings strongly suggests that there was more than one domestication event. All organisms find an eccological niche in which they thrive and reproduce. Dogs' niche was found with humans during the Mesolithic period when humans changed from hunter gatherers to agriculturists. Dogs are meant to be with humans. We just need to show them how to live without peeing in our house and a few other things so we can be harmonious together.

I've spent way too many years and hours of almost every day in my education of the domestication, evolution, biology where it pertains to canines, archeological and DNA findings, recent research, wolf behavior, dog behavior and training to continue discussing this with you. I appologize.

The main point is that Cesar Milan and his methods are ridiclous, irrelevant to domestic dogs and people that really understand and love dogs don't follow and try to emulate him. This is not simply a matter of "different" training methods or training "preference." What he is doing ISN'T a method. It's mistreatment, no understanding or compassion for what a dog needs, being in the niche he is with humans. The "Dog Whisperer" is utterly ridiculous and a travesty! Makes me wonderwhat some of you base your opinion on? What source?
 
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Zoom

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FOLKS COME ON, are you serious???! :yikes: Why would he try to find homes for dogs that are perfectly happy and healthy and well taken car of where they are???
So why bother to work for the adoption of animals from no-kill shelters? They're perfectly happy and well-taken care of where they are, right?

I think what Dober, Sam, Doc, Otch and others are trying to get at is that it's incredibly frustrating to have done all this SCIENTIFICIALLY BACKED research into true behaviors and their causes, only to have all that worked brushed aside by the gimmick-filled tv drama of an "instinctual trainer". I work with dogs for a living--namely a high-end boarding resort while I finish my apprenticeship in training. I cannot tell you how many times a day I cringe when I see a client with a dog who is known for it's leash aggression and walk just a little bit closer to a potential target because "We've been watching Ceasar" and they now know that "TSST!" and poking their dog in the neck is the cure for the common bite. My diplomatic and redirecting skills have been well-honed by this point.

I'm also developing a specialty in aggression cases. My job is going to compounded 100 times over by people who have watched this show and think that severe aggression can be fixed in a half hour and with only one of our cheap freebie leashes like you get at the vets. When I tell them that it takes anywhere from weeks to a year to fully fix certain behaviors, I'm going to have to deal with clients asking me "Why can't I just do what CM does?" and possibly taking their dogs elsewhere. Now hopefully, the ones with the biggest problems will recognize and understand what I am saying when I tell them why doing what CM does in a TV show won't work for their dog and that I'm not just trying to fleece them out as much money as I can.

Just so that this post isn't filled with sour grapes, I will tell you a couple things I like about CM. He has shown the public that you cannot treat your dog like a little person and expect it to be a good dog. He has shown that sometimes what seems like a huge problem worthy of dumping or euthanizing a dog can really be helped by a few simple and consistant routines. He has helped to get the idea of dog training out to more people who may have just previously banished Sparky in the back yard for the rest of his days.
 

Oski

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I've spent way too many years and hours of almost every day in my education of the domestication, evolution, biology where it pertains to canines, archeological and DNA findings, recent research, wolf behavior, dog behavior and training to continue discussing this with you. I appologize.

Im sorry too that you're way to educated to talk to me....PLEASE....why are you a part of an informal forum if you have that disposition?
 
G

GSDluver4lyfe

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FOLKS COME ON, are you serious???! :yikes: Why would he try to find homes for dogs that are perfectly happy and healthy and well taken car of where they are??? Wouldn't that just leave one less home for one more dog that is in need of a home before it gets put down??? I have a feeling that some of us are really running out of things to slam this guy on and had to resort to pointing out something that not only isn't a problem, but a great thing for those dogs. Dogs love being with other dogs...that is why they are pack animals. I digress....:rolleyes:

and yes they are pack animals still....come to Detroit where there are wild dogs running loose...you will find them together like a bunch of scruffy coyotes...we just domesticate the dogs that we take to evolve into our families with or without other dogs around...but given their choice, they would most definately pack up.
If it was up to them, they would be running a muck, not giving a hoot about us. Dogs care for themselves and I think would be much happier free to roam, no constrictions, no rules, and can p*ss wherever the the hell they want. They would only stop by to get some food.

I know what you mean about the packs in Detroit. I was over in the East side on Saturday and there were like 10 dogs running together. Its a shame everywhere you look is stray dog.
 

Oski

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If it was up to them, they would be running a muck, not giving a hoot about us. Dogs care for themselves and I think would be much happier free to roam, no constrictions, no rules, and can p*ss wherever the the hell they want. They would only stop by to get some food.

I know what you mean about the packs in Detroit. I was over in the East side on Saturday and there were like 10 dogs running together. Its a shame everywhere you look is stray dog.
i know...I hate seeing them in that type of atmosphere...smog, abandoned buildings..etc...It doesnt seem like there is a tree left in Detroit anymore..lol
 

Doberluv

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I've been on this forum for a few years. The reason I am on the forum is that I get satisfaction when less experienced dog owners ask for help with often, serious problems to them. They take in what I suggest and what other more knowldgeable dog people suggest, practice what has been shared with them, come back to thank me in a p.m. or on a thread and give updates of their success. I am happy when dogs and owners are happy. There's nothing more miserable than having a rotten time with a dog. I am passionate about dogs, in case you haven't noticed and this is why I am on a dog forum. Besides that, I have developed many friendships with some of the people here. They don't all think I have a rotten disposition or resent me for sharing what I have learned, even if it isn't the end all. Some help and tips are better than none.

Discussing opinions is great. I have opinions about food, but I know I'm not as well versed in nutrition as a few other people on this forum. So when I gather information from them, I tend to combine it with a little of my own research. But since I do not specialize in nutrition, I realize that their opinion is better than mine. There is a nutritionist on this forum and I do not presume to know more about it than she does. I respect her help and opinions.

When I gather information from behaviorists who have been in it longer than I have, have graduated from universities such as Purdue, Berkeley and other such esteemed behavioral departments, I tend to take in what they say as having considerable merit. Then I couple what I learn from them with still more research.

I might ask you the same question. Why are you on a dog forum? Are you here to learn at all? Or just to debate something on which you have nothing to substantiate your opinoin? That's OK, if that's your strategy. I don't understand why you question my reasons for being on a dog forum or my disposition. There are only a very few things which make my normal, sunny disposition take a left turn. One of them is someone trying to argue something that is abundantly clear that they haven't looked into very much, make uniformed and rash statements, resist all that someone who has made the topic her life interest and work. And the other thing that tends to skew my generally cheerful disposition... is Cesar Milan.

Enjoy yourself. I'll bow out and let you take it from here. Carry on.
 
G

GSDluver4lyfe

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i know...I hate seeing them in that type of atmosphere...smog, abandoned buildings..etc...It doesnt seem like there is a tree left in Detroit anymore..lol
Yeah, its depressing. I will never forget this one, looked like a chow/gsd mix that chased my car for like a mile. He had the sweetest look in his eyes and was barking at me (in a talking way) and if I didnt have Cheko in the car I would have taken him with me but too much of a risk. It was really sad.
 

Oski

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I've been on this forum for a few years. The reason I am on the forum is that I get satisfaction when less experienced dog owners ask for help with often, serious problems to them. They take in what I suggest and what other more knowldgeable dog people suggest, practice what has been shared with them, come back to thank me in a p.m. or on a thread and give updates of their success. I am happy when dogs and owners are happy. There's nothing more miserable than having a rotten time with a dog. I am passionate about dogs, in case you haven't noticed and this is why I am on a dog forum. Besides that, I have developed many friendships with some of the people here. They don't all think I have a rotten disposition or resent me for sharing what I have learned, even if it isn't the end all. Some help and tips are better than none.

Discussing opinions is great. I have opinions about food, but I know I'm not as well versed in nutrition as a few other people on this forum. So when I gather information from them, I tend to combine it with a little of my own research. But since I do not specialize in nutrition, I realize that their opinion is better than mine. There is a nutritionist on this forum and I do not presume to know more about it than she does. I respect her help and opinions.

When I gather information from behaviorists who have been in it longer than I have, have graduated from universities such as Purdue, Berkeley and other such esteemed behavioral departments, I tend to take in what they say as having considerable merit. Then I couple what I learn from them with still more research.

I might ask you the same question. Why are you on a dog forum? Are you here to learn at all? Or just to debate something on which you have nothing to substantiate your opinoin? That's OK, if that's your strategy. I don't understand why you question my reasons for being on a dog forum or my disposition. There are only a very few things which make my normal, sunny disposition take a left turn. One of them is someone trying to argue something that is abundantly clear that they haven't looked into very much, make uniformed and rash statements, resist all that someone who has made the topic her life interest and work. And the other thing that tends to skew my generally cheerful disposition... is Cesar Milan.

Enjoy yourself. I'll bow out and let you take it from here. Carry on.
I really don't have to back up saying something so simple as "dogs are related to wolves"....I was simply comparing the pack mentality of domesticated "wolves" with those of wild ones...afterall, they are related, you pointed that out yourself by saying they share the same DNA sequencing.

If you want scientific data, journals, scholarly papers, then here...maybe you can look at something from this guy...maybe you will correspond with a Dr.'s point of view since I am not worthy of your time and knowledge...as you pointed out before.

"The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence.... In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.” Taken alone, these data suggest that gray wolves are 20 times more closely related to dogs than to coyotes."
http://www.kc.net/%7Ewolf2dog/wayne2.htm


I am on this forum because I want to share knowledge, ask questions, have mature debates, and meet new people....that is what they are for. It sounds to me that you only enjoy participating in threads if everyone agress with your point of view, otherwise you tell them that you are to educated to talk to them. Im sorry, but if you think that just because I don't flaunt the areas that I am knowledgable in, that I really shouldn't post replies that are in a thread that is based off of everyones opinion as it is..then you are sadly mistaken.

No need for bows or to give me the floor....you already made it clear that you didnt want to hear anything I had to say anyways.
 

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