Dog Bit my dog (and strange behavior) help

Status
Not open for further replies.

lizzybeth727

Active Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
6,403
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Central Texas
#61
I don't event know how to handle Zacks dog issues anymore other than just expose him to as many dogs as I can (slowly and as comfortably as I can for him)

But I can't even put him in a group obedience class.
If you want to learn how to handle Zack's issues (exposing him to any dog is not necessarily the answer, and can often make the issues worse), "Click to Calm" is the best way, IMO, short of going to a training class specifically for reactive dogs.

But, if you think it's more important to learn about poodles, a breed that you've had all your life, or to read the second edition of a book you've already read, than it is hard for me to believe that it is important for you to learn how to handle his behavior. It just seems obvious that your priorties lie elsewhere.
 

smkie

pointer/labrador/terrier
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
55,184
Likes
35
Points
48
#62
IF i was a new member and i came here and read the replies on this thread i would leave and never look back. What is with people today? THis and a couple other threads just give me a headache. CAn we all be a bit more civil to each other? :confused::(

Back to the topic. Timing is everything imo. I agree that if you picked the other dog up and then scolded, the message was scrambled. You also need to remember that your emotions are key to alot of your dog's responses. IF you are anxious about it, your dog is going to pick up on it and escalate the worry.
 
F

FluffyZooCrew

Guest
#63
IF i was a new member and i came here and read the replies on this thread i would leave and never look back. What is with people today? THis and a couple other threads just give me a headache. CAn we all be a bit more civil to each other?
Oh come on...

This thread was COMPLETELY CIVIL until people started to get aggravated because the OP is completely ignoring all advice!

There were entirely too many members in this thread that gave her sound advice and good explanations in polite and CIVIL manner, and she chose to ignore every bit of it.

And this is NOT a 'new member'. The OP has been here for a while now. And she continuously starts thread after thread after thread looking for advice, but in every single thread, she ignores the advice, and goes on about how members misunderstood her, or how we are 'wrong'.

Members got fed up, and they spoke up.
 

Fran101

Resident fainting goat
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
12,546
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Boston
#64
Oh come on...

This thread was COMPLETELY CIVIL until people started to get aggravated because the OP is completely ignoring all advice!

There were entirely too many members in this thread that gave her sound advice and good explanations in polite and CIVIL manner, and she chose to ignore every bit of it.

And this is NOT a 'new member'. The OP has been here for a while now. And she continuously starts thread after thread after thread looking for advice, but in every single thread, she ignores the advice, and goes on about how members misunderstood her, or how we are 'wrong'.

Members got fed up, and they spoke up.

this.
 

CaliTerp07

Active Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
7,652
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
36
Location
Alexandria, VA
#65
XKCD rules, FZC. That's one of my favorites.

OP, I like Fransheska's suggestion. Go observe a dog park, and watch the scuffles and play that goes on there, and how it's very normal. It might give you a little more confidence in your dog's actions.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#66
I'll tell you my opinion and then I'll back off. Timing is generally exceedingly important in most training tasks. However, IMO it doesn't matter what kind of timing you have IF you're scolding. You can time it just right and you're still developing a sort of conditioned reflex. Ie: Dog gets punished in the presence of other dog. The other dog becomes a predictor of a bad thing; your nervousness, your punishing, scary tone, your possibly tightening up on a leash, whatever. This is a well established phenomenon known by most behaviorists. Punishment should NEVER be used in conjunction with aggression of any kind.

I had a very reactive Doberman and went through a long process to desensatize and counter-condition him to not minding other dogs so much while on a leash. He was never perfect, but improved a lot. I've worked with clients' dogs with the same problem. It's really quite common. There is a gradual approach, using distance where the dog is kept just below his reactivity threshold. This is the general protocal. Click to Calm is a very well written out, step by step program that I too highly recommend.

Yes, IMO your trainer is wrong to suggest punishment when treating reactivity or aggression issues. Your dog may well become worse. You may see some apparent improvement as he learns to suppress his reaction in order to avoid a scolding. But as is well known by most trainers worth their weight, this is very often a short-lived remedy and you can create an explosive reaction somewhere down the road. This is not about your dog knowing you mean business. Like I said before, dogs are not that aware of their behavior in a logical, thought-out way. To your dog, you are simply being scary and it happens everytime another dog is near. He will stop behaving period because it will take loads of repitition before he may tie his own behavoir to your punishment. Meanwhile, he's developing an escalating issue with other dogs.

If you say you've tried this or that, how long did you try? This type of problem can take months and months, sometimes even longer to work through and even then, management will always be important. What did you try? What exactly was your method? Read Click to Calm if you are interested in a good, sound method of dealing with this sort of thing. Fight, by Jean Donaldson is also good. There are still others. But be careful and steer clear of anyone suggesting any repressive remedies. They do not fix the problem. They only make you think the problem is fixed. And then when you have let your guard down, your dog explodes.

Now, this is all to say if you're sure this is a dog being reactive or aggressive and not just playing. It almost sounds like you may not be recognizing it for what it is. I hope that is not the case. A certified behaviorist or good trainer....who's educated in behavior, not just how to train this and that should be able to observe and help you.
 

smkie

pointer/labrador/terrier
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Messages
55,184
Likes
35
Points
48
#67
^^^^ is a civil and respectable reply. Valued information that any member could use.
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
46
Location
Ontario
#68
Well yes the timing thing. The dog was scolded for letting go. So if the dog was to learn anything it was next time don't let go :D.

But then the OP said the JRT wouldn't let go, but then scooped up her dog. Were you playing tug with the JRT with your dog as the tug toy?

Were there any puncture marks? Did the JRT keep jumping and trying to bite him after he was scooped up?

Why do you think this was aggression? What made you think that? As you described it-it sounds like perfectly normal play.
 

grab01

I'm on a boat..
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
444
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
the desert
#69
If I read the original post correctly, Zack didn't even know the other dog had his leg. Which tells me that, unless the OP can move at the speed of light, it was a play move and not a true 'bite' or clamping down. I cannot imagine a dog reactive/aggressive dog ignoring that.

Some dogs play by tugging on each other, biting body parts,etc. As a pup, Aesop was a (dog and cat) butt nipper, and Grimmy is a notorious foot grabber with the other dogs.

I don't think the wagging the tail while being scolded is 'weird' or 'odd'. It is possible that he isn't used to being scolded at home, so has no idea what you were going on about. Or, perhaps, he just doesn't care that someone who isn't his owner was chastising him. I know my terrier looks deflated if I give him a 'for heaven's sake Jules!', but if a stranger did so, they'd get only a little terrier cold shoulder. Not to mention, the behavior may not be wrong to him if that's his normal play style, so why should he connect your scolding to that behavior when it happened after the fact.

If you want to work on Zack's dog reaction, I'd work with an actual behaviorist if possible. How do you react when he sees another dog? It seems you're hanging onto his being attacked as a pup, rather than trying to move forward. I'd wonder if you're transferring some anxiety to him
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
519
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Says goodbye to chazhound....done with forums
#70
We do plan on getting a behaviorist as soon as we can afford it. The dog trainer we aren't even using anymore other than a phone call here and there because we can't do it right now. Why haven't I read click to calm? You may ask, 1. we can't buy anything that isn't in our budget, especially a book I'm probably going to read a chapter of and then put down and never pick up again. I've been reading the same book for the last 9 months...why because I just don't read. I've never been a reader and when I do read it takes me forever. I'd rather watch tv or play with my dogs or worry about the day to day. I don't read and I don't enjoy reading. As far as the dog park goes, the last few times at the dog park not onlytraumatized Zack but traumatized me. I watched a dog die when a dog got it in his mouth and ripped its throat out. I feel dog parks are terrible places that shouldn't exist.


I can't walk Zack when other dogs are out because we can be over 50 feet away and he see a dog and start barking like mad. Though he is fine with dogs he knows on a leash and off (but it takes weeks and sometimes even months for him to get comfortable) He has about 8 dogs he can now play with off leash (all female, he seems to )

So when I am out with him and I see another dog I tense up get anxious and walk the other way (to avoid the embarassment)

And I'm not a bad owner because my other dog I trained the same way never acts out at all.

Don't worry though I'll handle this myself. And I'm not going to ask advice on this matter anymore......

I shouldn't be on here anyway....I get too upset over these forums anyways.....

So I'm bidding a farewell to all. In other words I'm taking a break.

For how long? I don't know a few weeks maybe.... Maybe longer.


So thank you to those who helped but I need to stop wasting so much time on a dog forum with a bunch of strangers and more time with my family and dogs and having fun. These forums are just so darn addicting.
Anyways I'm taking a vacation....so bye for awhile
 

Zoom

Twin 2.0
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
40,739
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
40
Location
Denver, CO
#71
Quit taking Zack to the dog park when you know he's uncomfortable around strange dogs and you know that you are a bundle of nerves yourself, prone to overreacting, which does directly affect the situation and will make it worse.

Quit bringing strange dogs into the house since you know Zack doesn't do well with strange dogs. Although from what I read of this situation, had you just kept still and quiet, it would have been fine. I notice in all this, you never once said that Zach was freaking out in any fashion, which leads me to believe he was fine. After all, he was laying down in the JRT's presence, which isn't something scared dogs do.

Also, I think a huge part of your problem is that you just don't want to put in any real effort. People tell you to read "Click to Calm", which will tell you EXACTLY how to help Zack overcome his fear reactiveness and you say you're just flat out not going to do it, basically because it's too hard and time consuming.

Yes, yes, you've been working FOREEEEEVER on this issue. Congratulations. With the proper tools and knowledge, his progress would be quicker. But hey, it's your time. I wouldn't say getting FREE and EFFECTIVE advice is a waste of it, but obviously you do.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#72
We do plan on getting a behaviorist as soon as we can afford it. The dog trainer we aren't even using anymore other than a phone call here and there because we can't do it right now. Why haven't I read click to calm? You may ask, 1. we can't buy anything that isn't in our budget, especially a book I'm probably going to read a chapter of and then put down and never pick up again. I've been reading the same book for the last 9 months...why because I just don't read. I've never been a reader and when I do read it takes me forever. I'd rather watch tv or play with my dogs or worry about the day to day. I don't read and I don't enjoy reading. As far as the dog park goes, the last few times at the dog park not onlytraumatized Zack but traumatized me. I watched a dog die when a dog got it in his mouth and ripped its throat out. I feel dog parks are terrible places that shouldn't exist.


I can't walk Zack when other dogs are out because we can be over 50 feet away and he see a dog and start barking like mad. Though he is fine with dogs he knows on a leash and off (but it takes weeks and sometimes even months for him to get comfortable) He has about 8 dogs he can now play with off leash (all female, he seems to )

So when I am out with him and I see another dog I tense up get anxious and walk the other way (to avoid the embarassment)

And I'm not a bad owner because my other dog I trained the same way never acts out at all.

Don't worry though I'll handle this myself. And I'm not going to ask advice on this matter anymore......

I shouldn't be on here anyway....I get too upset over these forums anyways.....

So I'm bidding a farewell to all. In other words I'm taking a break.

For how long? I don't know a few weeks maybe.... Maybe longer.


So thank you to those who helped but I need to stop wasting so much time on a dog forum with a bunch of strangers and more time with my family and dogs and having fun. These forums are just so darn addicting.
Anyways I'm taking a vacation....so bye for awhile

I know so well what you mean by wasting your time. I mean, I can relate tot-all-y. The only difference here is that I care enough about my dogs' well being to MAKE the time to read and learn. To me it's not a waste of time...not for my dogs and not for myself. Too many insecure dogs because their owners don't know what they're doing where dogs are concerned and don't care to find out. I won't waste more time on someone who asks for help, doesn't appear to know what is happening between the dogs and then writes a post like that! :eek:

Good advice from Zoom as is usual.

Yup...work smart, not hard (or forev-e-e-e-r) If you paid attention and did what you were told, you wouldn't have to work fore-v-v-e-r-r-r-r-r....:rofl1:

I can't relate to anyone throwing away a chance to learn something. :confused:
 

bubbatd

Moderator
Joined
Nov 28, 2004
Messages
64,812
Likes
1
Points
0
Age
89
#73
Enjoy your time away ..... but read this thread daily ! You owe it to your dog and yourself !
 

elegy

overdogged
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
7,720
Likes
1
Points
0
#74
Also, I think a huge part of your problem is that you just don't want to put in any real effort. People tell you to read "Click to Calm", which will tell you EXACTLY how to help Zack overcome his fear reactiveness and you say you're just flat out not going to do it, basically because it's too hard and time consuming.
boy oh man, i wish i'd have had click to calm when i first started working with luce. we got there (and in pretty much the fashion that emma parsons describes) but it would have been faster if i'd had such nicely laid out clear cut instructions.

but yes, it takes effort.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#75
Same here Elegy.

(I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I get frustrated when I picture a little frustrated dog who's probably under sociailzed and just know he can get more comfortable and easier to manage and an owner who could be more comfortable..... and then you just flat out walk away to go watch TV and play.) Kids! Harumph! :rolleyes:
 

MafiaPrincess

Obvious trollsare Obvious
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
6,135
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
39
Location
Ontario
#76
So you got a stroller so you could go to the dog park more when one of your dogs doesn't really belong there?

I have click to calm. It was a good book. Lots of pictures if you hate reading.... Was the wrong book for Cider issues.. but I like a full bookshelf of materials on dogs.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
519
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Says goodbye to chazhound....done with forums
#77
So you got a stroller so you could go to the dog park more when one of your dogs doesn't really belong there?

I have click to calm. It was a good book. Lots of pictures if you hate reading.... Was the wrong book for Cider issues.. but I like a full bookshelf of materials on dogs.

No we don't go to the dog park. We go to the big park to walk. We got the stroller to go to the flea market and go to the big park to walk. (I don't do dog parks)

I just rather be told how to fix it and given basic easy instructions but we will handle this our way. He isn't under socialized. He has been exposed to just as much. by the way I do exagerate his behavior a bit. He isn't nearly as bad as it comes off I just get so frustrated at times and blow things out of proportion.....we all do. The dog is a good dog but I guess I get a little overexcited and well make things out to be more than they are. I do overexaggerate a lot,. Thats just an issue I have. His only problem is he barks at dogs bigger than him.

And there was no other dog....I made up the situation because I didn't want to admit that I was concerned about my dog.....not reacting to being corrected. There was no other dog but I didn't want you to know it was my dog. it was my dog that didn't react to being corrected.....okay I just didn't want anyone to know that I was concerned about my well trained dog.


It was my other dog that grabbed his leg and wouldn't let go. Something she has never done before....and Zack did growl at her but he usually just lets her do whatever to him. But grabbing him like that was uncalled for but I didn't want anyone to know it was my one dog. Because she is so good. And Zacks problems aren't bad and I just overexaggerate them okay.......what may sound bad is just me venting and raving over it. (I'm a very uptight individual)

I never should have made him out to be a not so good dog because he is perfect at home and around people and around the dogs he knows. And most dogs his size.....Sorry I wasted your time

But Sasha is my pride and joy and I have worked hard with her and I just didn't want anyone to know she was less than perfect.

(Zack is my husbands dog but I love him just as much but my husband pretty much handles his training so I let him.....and Zack just isn't to the point where Sasha is and I get frustrated with him a lot because he doesn't learn easy and he has that small dog attitude and selective hearing. I am trying to rework him because we made alot of training mistakes with him. Zack was our first dog as adults and the first few months of his life he was passed back and forth between us and relatives......we got married and went on a 2 week honeymoon and ended up out of town a lot so we didnt have much to do with his training. We didn't want to be out of town but we had to)

Needless to say we are doing the best we can and he will be fine....I just get frustrated over him at times and feel better after venting and complaining because I don't get to do that at home and its better than me taking it out on him by yelling at him.
 
F

FluffyZooCrew

Guest
#78
And there was no other dog....I made up the situation because I didn't want to admit that I was concerned about my dog.....not reacting to being corrected.]There was no other dog but I didn't want you to know it was my dog. it was my dog that didn't react to being corrected.....okay I just didn't want anyone to know that I was concerned about my well trained dog.
:facepalm:

Oh. My. God. I don't even know what else to say at the moment. Other than the fact that you are a sick, sick person and you should really seek help.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
519
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Says goodbye to chazhound....done with forums
#79
:facepalm:

Oh. My. God. I don't even know what else to say at the moment. Other than the fact that you are a sick, sick person and you should really seek help.

I'm not sick, I like to get on here and VENT. Its my way with dealing with the small things that get under my skin.

And it helps pass time when there is nothing to do
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
519
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Says goodbye to chazhound....done with forums
#80
:facepalm:

Oh. My. God. I don't even know what else to say at the moment. Other than the fact that you are a sick, sick person and you should really seek help.

I'm not sick, I like to get on here and VENT. Its my way with dealing with the small things that get under my skin.

and it helps because I have 2 dogs that are very young and very close in age and I am with them all day and it gets to me at times because I'm overwhelmed


Two dogs 5 months apart in age and we have had them each since they were 9 weeks and 12 weeks old. ITs a lot to handle most days. I grew up in a one dog at a time house and now I'm constantly breaking up scuffles and training and the dogs are all I do.....I want a break and don't get a break so SORRY IF I COME OFF bitchy and A LITTLE NUTS. I'm a bit overwhelmed here.

I love them both and wouldn't trade them for the world but
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

No members online now.
Top