Disappointed - made the wrong call

Domestika

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#1
For those of you who don't know, I bought a purebred GSD puppy from a breeder I was familiar with last summer. She quickly fell into very bad health and suffered from several ailments, including autoimmune problems and finally a disease in her longbones (before the age of 5 months). She was returned as I had an overseas move coming up and the pup wouldn't have been allowed in quarantine with her poor health.

I learned recently that Nova's mother has produced another litter (second on in 10 months). I know some people don't agree, but this seriously irks me. The breeder has like 10 bitches to choose from and she has to re-use the bitch that produced an extremely unhealthy pup last time around? Sure, who know what percentage of Nova's illnesses were genetic or not or whatever. But why would you take the chance?

Also, just to complete my rant (and make me feel extra stupid for dealing with this breeder), she has AGAIN had litters born within 2 days of each other. Nova came from a group of 17 pups born on the same day from two different dogs. How one woman thinks she can properly socialise 17 pups singlehandedly I'll never know. I have no idea why she doesn't space out her litters more. Maybe it gives her a chance for a break, but why do two at once? Surely the pups suffer for it.

She (the breeder) has also produced more than 6 litters since Nova's litter was born last July. I consider that to be a little overboard. 6 litters in 10 months? Come on! I find it a bit hard to believe that that isn't financially motivated.

Also, I noticed on her website that she's had a dog from Nova's litter returned. And she's asking for 1400$ for this pup...where the dogs from that litter were originally sold for 1200$. What the heck!

Also, Nova is now in her breeding program. A dog with all of those ailments...and she sees fit to breed her. Any dog that has been that siginificantly ill (before 5 months of age!) should be spayed and left at that. I wish I had spayed her before I returned her. :( I'm pretty sure they're keeping her for the breeding program for her coat alone. It's quite rare. Doesn't speak to the breeder's dedication to improving the health of the breed.

End of Rant!
 

KenyiGirl

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Also, Nova is now in her breeding program. A dog with all of those ailments...and she sees fit to breed her. Any dog that has been that siginificantly ill (before 5 months of age!) should be spayed and left at that.
You're kidding! :eek: That just shocks me... I don't mean to slam you in any way, but the woman sounds more and more like a BYB to me. So many litters in such a short time, planning litters so that there are so many puppies that they may not have enough socialization, and incorporating a proven genetically unsound bitch into her breeding program... Its just all so irresponsible :mad:
 

Domestika

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You're kidding! :eek: That just shocks me... I don't mean to slam you in any way, but the woman sounds more and more like a BYB to me. So many litters in such a short time, planning litters so that there are so many puppies that they may not have enough socialization, and incorporating a proven genetically unsound bitch into her breeding program... Its just all so irresponsible :mad:
YES!
Exactly!

I have to admit...I was totally snowed by the fact that the majority of her dogs are Schutzund III and her dogs are that the RCMP use her dogs and all that. I guess I took it for granted that all those fancy titles meant "reputable".

Yes, sadly, she does sound like a BYB. Not health testing, breeding unsound animals and producing more than half a dozen litters in a year, breeding bitches every single season for 5 or 6 years in a row... Yep! Like I said, I totally made the wrong call.

I have a much better idea now though what I consider to be most important in a breeder/breeding program and what to look for next time around. Though...I don't really plan to do another purebred pup again. I'm still trying to talk the husband into ex-racing Greyhound rescues. :)
 

*Amy*

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#6
Also, Nova is now in her breeding program. A dog with all of those ailments...and she sees fit to breed her. Any dog that has been that siginificantly ill (before 5 months of age!) should be spayed and left at that. I wish I had spayed her before I returned her. :( I'm pretty sure they're keeping her for the breeding program for her coat alone. It's quite rare. Doesn't speak to the breeder's dedication to improving the health of the breed.
That is terrible. :mad: I think I would want to say something to that lady. I can't believe she calls herself a reputable breeder.
 
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Domestika

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#7
That is terrible. :mad: I think I would want to say something to that lady. I can't believe she calls herself a reputable breeder.
Well, part of the problem is that she claims that Nova is/always was in perfect health. Despite a 30 page medical record from my vet, x-rays, specialists' diagnoses, etc.

I returned her with bad allergies, chronic diarrhea (from an intenstinal autominnue disorder) and a pronounced limp in her back legs from HOD (a long bone disease). Two weeks later the breeder contacted me to say that Nova was fine, she'd had no problems since I'd returned her, she hadn't had any reason to take her to her vet (as promised) and that, in her words, my vet must have "a screw loose" if he thought she was sick.

Sooooo, sad as it is, in her mind she's breeding a perfectly healthy dog. It's pretty easy to keep your head in the sand if you avoid letting a vet even look at the dog!
 

drmom777

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#8
So I assume she does no health testing before breeding. In a breed that is rife with hip and other issues.
 

Domestika

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#9
So I assume she does no health testing before breeding. In a breed that is rife with hip and other issues.
She seems to pick and choose. Of her 20+ dogs I've been able to find I think 3 of them in the databases. Not sure why she'd only do a few... I assumed health testing was mandatory for Schutzhund dogs or RCMP dogs!

I purposely chose a pup from a litter with a father from another breeder because I noticed about 80% of her litters are sired by one male she has. So Nova's father was extensively tested thankfully, but not so much the mother. Or...90% of her other dogs, it seems. :/
 

*Amy*

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Well, part of the problem is that she claims that Nova is/always was in perfect health. Despite a 30 page medical record from my vet, x-rays, specialists' diagnoses, etc.

I returned her with bad allergies, chronic diarrhea (from an intenstinal autominnue disorder) and a pronounced limp in her back legs from HOD (a long bone disease). Two weeks later the breeder contacted me to say that Nova was fine, she'd had no problems since I'd returned her, she hadn't had any reason to take her to her vet (as promised) and that, in her words, my vet must have "a screw loose" if he thought she was sick.

Sooooo, sad as it is, in her mind she's breeding a perfectly healthy dog. It's pretty easy to keep your head in the sand if you avoid letting a vet even look at the dog!
Wow, from that you can definitely see that she's breeding for money, and money alone. To turn her head at the vet records and believe the dog is perfectly healthy is insane.
 

Domestika

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Wow, from that you can definitely see that she's breeding for money, and money alone. To turn her head at the vet records and believe the dog is perfectly healthy is insane.
The fact that she didn't bother with even just a run-of-the-mill vet check irked me UNBELIEVABLY. I mean, if you had a pup returned for ANY reason...wouldn't you kinda just play it safe and make sure the pup was in good shape? Nevermind one that had had problems from day one. I mean, I had been in contact with the breeder from the outset, keeping her up to date on her various health problems and diagnoses. So it wasn't like I dropped her off one say and said "Oh, by the way, I think she's sick".

What tooootally annoyed me was when I got an email back from HER vet clinic weeks after I returned the dog saying "Who is Nova and why are you sending us x-rays for this dog?". I knew then that she had no intention of looking into any of it. Nevermind the fact that I had the x-rays taken expressly to enable her vet to do further diagnoses... Sigh.

Also, I would just like to add that at 1400$ a pup about 7-10 pups a litter at 6+ litters a year, this woman is making between 60-80k a year on these dogs. And she's pocketing most of that...considering that she doesn't have the expense of health testing. I'm beginning to realise why BYBs flourish...

Anyway! Breed rescues for me from now on!
 

jasmom87

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#12
I know exactly how you feel. Before getting Maddie, we loved cocker spaniels, and was the only type of dog I had ever owned. We lost my heart dog Misty after 12 wonderful years, and I did so much homework prior to getting another cocker. High recommendations by three different parties, research and many phone contacts before buying Freckles. She had so many health problems.

When I contacted the "breeder" she called me names and told me that she would never breed a dog from a mom with passed on the genetic problems. After thousands of dollars in Freckles short life, I could not return her to the breeder to be not treated as I did not trust her at all, we made the terrible decision to put her down.

I'm sorry that you have to go through this, and it stinks that there are people out there that would disingrate the breed.
 

Domestika

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When I contacted the "breeder" she called me names and told me that she would never breed a dog from a mom with passed on the genetic problems. After thousands of dollars in Freckles short life, I could not return her to the breeder to be not treated as I did not trust her at all, we made the terrible decision to put her down.
That is heartbreaking. I don't understand why people do things like that.

I'm starting to think that the most important part of finding a breeder is forming a personal relationship with the person. They can say whatever they want and some things look good on paper, but it's not until you really know them that I think you can tell if you can trust them. Of course, most people aren't so immoral...but when you do find one, man do you wish you had known better!

I'm so sorry to hear that your pup was put down. I debated whether or not to return Nova to the breeder, as I worried that she would not be well looked after, but the breeder assured me that Nova's health was her number one concern and that she would be in close, regular contact with her vet to work out her health problems.

I knew something wasn't right the day I returned her and apologized for forgetting to bring Nova's medication (a heavy-duty anti-inflammatory to ease the pain of her bone disease) and the breeder said "Oh, that's ok. We usually don't give them anything for it. What they need is to lie down and rest and not be up running around so we usually don't give them anything for the pain."

:yikes::yikes::yikes:

I kick myself now that I ever got involved.
 

HoundedByHounds

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#14
I understand you are kinda virtually kicking yourself but I do want to caution you. This forum is VERY, public and I'd hate to see you brought into anything legal because of what you posted here. True or not...the truth is most of this should be between you and the breeder...and could be construed as harrassment by the right smarmy lawyer.

I fully understand you've not mentioned names...but I think in past posts it's been mentioned at least to a point who you're speaking of.

Just protect yourself...and sometimes it is better to let things go...than to get to the point where you are stuck on one thing and it upsets you this much. Moving on with the knowledge you have is great...and sharing that knowledge is also great when it's done in a way that is protective of yourself ;)

((hug)) I know it's probably annoying what I posted but I really did post it solely to help.
 

Domestika

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Just protect yourself...and sometimes it is better to let things go...than to get to the point where you are stuck on one thing and it upsets you this much. Moving on with the knowledge you have is great...and sharing that knowledge is also great when it's done in a way that is protective of yourself ;)

((hug)) I know it's probably annoying what I posted but I really did post it solely to help.
hahaha..yes, I understand.

I am a dweller. Though I have pretty much let this go...I just recently took a look at the breeder's website and felt the need for a rant. :)

And I considered myself to be slightly more educated than the average person when choosing a breeder and dog, so I thought I'd let people know where I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Hopefully it'll help someone else!

As far as legal issues go, I haven't attributed any comments to the breeder that I don't have proof of in emails from her so I'm not particularly concerned about that. But I understand what you're saying, libel, etc and so on.
 

smkie

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#16
WHere you should be able to write about a situtation like this? CAn they sue you for saying the truth? Knowledge is power, less puppies to suffer and all of that, surely there is somewhere you can say such a thing to let other people know. WE have the better business B here. Can you report breeders?
 

Domestika

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WHere you should be able to write about a situtation like this? CAn they sue you for saying the truth? Knowledge is power, less puppies to suffer and all of that, surely there is somewhere you can say such a thing to let other people know. WE have the better business B here. Can you report breeders?
I wonder if the Better Business Bureau does cover breeders... I don't really know what constitutes a "business". There should be a BBB JUST for breeders! That'd be a full time job, surely.
 

smkie

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#18
THere ought to be a website that allows people to thumbs up or down a breeder. THat would be helpful.
 

Domestika

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THere ought to be a website that allows people to thumbs up or down a breeder. THat would be helpful.
Though..sometimes I think there are just as many idiot owners as there are idiot breeders (no offense to lovely Chaz breeders and owners!) that I wonder if breeders would get flamed by owners with unreasonable demands or expectations (ie. "dog wouldn't stop peeing on carpet - hate this breeder", etc).
 

jasmom87

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#20
I'm still looking into filing a complaint with the AKC. I don't know if I should just let it go or do something. I do know through the cocker group I used to be on that it has happened more then once to other people.

Time has healed some of the anger, but whenever I see pictures of Freckles and want to fix it. That is why we went with a spaniel dog, but no more cockers for me. I needed a puppy in great health, and I know that there are no guarantees....

I think the venting is healthy as long as you don't slander.
 

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