DA - I need help. Fast.

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#21
So I'll definitely be doing crate/rotate. I'm just worried about a few things, well not worried but questioning.

For C/R, how do I feed them, how do I give them each attention, can they go on walks together, go outside together..?
I live in a crate and rotate system, except there are multiple floors to the house, so it's a series of gates. The groups are allowed on the main floor/outside access every two hours. When we get up the first group goes outside, eats, then goes to the first floor. The second group is allowed outside, eats, and we do whatever we do for two hours. Then rotate. Train as normal, go outside separately, walk separately in the mean time.

Jack and Elsa are mortal enemies that I will never trust together again, but they can successfully be behind gates or see each other and illicit no response from the other. They can even hike together without intermingling or paying mind to the other, but there is no future for them together. Not that this is what may ultimately happen to you, but for us it was not the end of the world if you find yourself here a few years down the line. You build a routine and they build it with you. I will credit having multiple floors and groups that get along together for it being much easier.
 

joce

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#22
You'll come up with a system. We have had six dogs here while I fostered and sometimes had three separate groups. In the old house there was an addition that could be closed off and then a big front room and then the rest of the house. Good gates made it work. If we had to pass one dogs "zone" then that dog got crate while other dog on the way to food or walk or whatever.

We had a westie that was awful with other dogs in general and he always seemed to cause fights. So he was in the addition where the other dogs didn't even have to go past him to get him riled up.

I will admit it is nice having two dogs that get along now(for the most part. Darn bossy old cranky corgi!)but really it just became what we did and I didn't give it a second thought after a while.
 

DJEtzel

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#23
Thank you, this is what I was looking for. I thought I was just to crate and rotate and continue that forever. I feel that just them being apart might make them forget each other and have more fights when they'd see each other again. I just don't understand marking and treating Nitro for looking at Buddy when he isn't around, how do I go about doing that?

Edit: Also both dogs don't have any spots around the house, the kitchen is just where we're around most.

And another question on crate rotate, what should I do exactly? Separate them by a baby-gate or actually one in the crate, one out?
Absolutely not, necessarily. Crate and rotate is just a term to literally do just that, at least in this moment. It doesn't have to be a forever thing when it is referred to, it will depend on the dogs involved. My Border Collie and GSD pup are being crated and rotated right now, not because of aggression, but because my pup is paying too much attention to my border collie when they are both loose and will not stop pestering him and occasionally blows me off for him. So they don't get to hang out, period, for at least a week. Then after some more training on the pup's behalf, they'll start re-integrating. My border collie shouldn't have to put up with a pesky pup though. He'd RATHER be crated, honestly.

Taking them away from each other is going to be more likely to reset to neutral bounds between the two. Letting them engage in nasty/snarky behavior is going to reinforce it ten-fold. Like with any habit, to have a chance at correcting it permanently, you have to prevent it from happening at all for a lengthy period of time.

The marking and treating, I am referring to when they can see each other, but cannot get near each other, whether that is due to glass doors, leashes, crates, gates, etc. When you know that Buddy will not/can not come near Nitro to instigate a fight (over food) you can mark/treat Nitro for looking at Buddy, thus creating a positive association.

You can use actual crates or gates, whatever you prefer/works easiest, and prevents them from engaging in negative behavior. If they will pick over a gate or stare through/snarl through, I wouldn't use a gate, or double gate an area. Likewise with a crate- if the loose dog can walk up to a crate, I would not use that as a means of confining the cratee. It's going to create a lot of tension and that will not help.

I crated/rotated one dog with a separate group of Three dogs and Three dogs for about 6 months. Roommates three dogs could interact with my safe three, but stayed in a separate spot in the house. Duke could not interact or SEE any of them, period, or he would go batshit crazy. If he ever came into contact with one, he would try to kill it. So we kept two doors between him being crated and any loose dogs at any time. We had him in a spare bedroom, crated, on the far side of the house, with a baby gate in the doorway as well. I would get up in the morning, make sure roommate's dogs had been out already (She got up early/went to bed late) and that her door was closed and their gate was locked (two doors) then I would let my three out, put them in crates in the living room with breakfast, and walk the aggressor on leash outside to the yard to potty and play for about an hour. Then back into his crate with breakfast and my three got to come out for about an hour. Then back into crates and he came out for a few hours, then they did, etc. It is rough for a while, especially if you live with others (I lived with 4 other people) but it does become routine after a while.

So I'll definitely be doing crate/rotate. I'm just worried about a few things, well not worried but questioning.

For C/R, how do I feed them, how do I give them each attention, can they go on walks together, go outside together..?
I would let one out in the morning, bring him back in, feed in his crate. Let the other out, bring him back in, feed in the common area. Give that dog attention for a half hour-hour, and swap.

Personally, with dogs that bicker like this but aren't intent on killing each other all the time, I would do leash walks with them AND ANOTHER PERSON. One handler per dog, always walking parallel, as much as you can. This will be a positive addition to their relationship and neither will be better than the other or have the opportunity to start/end anything.

Good luck. :)
 
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#24
You'll come up with a system.
Exactly. You'll just have to experiment a little bit to figure out what works best for you.

In our house, everyone can safely and comfortably see, hear, and interact with each other more or less all the time through the gates, and we people are in and out of both areas regularly. So we don't make much of an effort to do anything special during the day. But in the evenings, Maisy and Squash go upstairs to the bedroom/to bed about an hour or two before Pip so he gets to spend some "alone" time with us with free roam of the first floor, gates open.

At this point mine can safely be outside together or on walks. Pip tends to be a bit of fun police, so I make sure that the youngsters get time outside without him, too - plus that is time he has free roam inside as well, it pulls double duty.

If I literally had to crate, I'd probably do something like TWAB described... rotate individuals or groups in blocks of time. You'll eventually just get a routine down that works for you.
 

Skits

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#25
Alright thanks everyone, we'll give it a try. Luckily they aren't fighting enough that I'd worry about them growling through the fence. They actually haven't fought in the past three days, not even a stare from Nitro but I've been giving him his rescue remedy. Call me crazy but I think it works haha.

I'm going to pick up a baby fence today and get started on a routine. I really had no idea that so many people on the forum have been doing this. I was always so surprised that everyone's dogs got along so well, especially those with 3+ or bully breeds.
 

Skits

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#26
Thought I'd update - So far C/R is doing fine. They're both doing fine with the new schedule and we rotate them from one of the bedrooms and the rest of the house. I'll keep doing this for awhile.

When would it be safe to re-introduce and when could they do activities together again like walking, going outside, eating together, etc.
 
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#27
When would it be safe to re-introduce and when could they do activities together again like walking, going outside, eating together, etc.
If it were me, I'd never let them eat together. I don't even let dogs that get along eat together. Or have high value treats/toys. It's just too much potential for an issue, especially with dogs that are already having skirmishes.

As for the rest, I'd work on that with a trainer who can observe the dogs together.
 

Skits

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#28
If it were me, I'd never let them eat together. I don't even let dogs that get along eat together. Or have high value treats/toys. It's just too much potential for an issue, especially with dogs that are already having skirmishes.

As for the rest, I'd work on that with a trainer who can observe the dogs together.
Alright, how come there's potential for an issue even with dogs that get along? Mine never had an issue at all, they each finish off their bowl and walk away, then Buddy sometimes checks both bowls for more haha. But okay, will do that then. Still no reply from the trainer I wanted so I'll give them a call and call others tomorrow.
 

DJEtzel

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#29
Alright, how come there's potential for an issue even with dogs that get along? Mine never had an issue at all, they each finish off their bowl and walk away, then Buddy sometimes checks both bowls for more haha. But okay, will do that then. Still no reply from the trainer I wanted so I'll give them a call and call others tomorrow.
Dogs are naturally going to want to make sure that they keep their food... Even dogs that have never guarded against each other can/will when stressed enough or pestered enough, even if they're just feeling threatened for the day. Feeding together does add stress, even if everyone is playing nice, and between two dogs that already have a history of fighting, it is not worth adding that stress. I rarely feed dogs together, either, but do a few times a week just to know that I *can* if we have to travel and I need to. They are respectful, but for the most part, I put their minds at ease by feeding in separate rooms (even if there's no physical barrier... 10'+ while they both eat is a good distance to feel safe) or crates. It's just to prevent things from going bad. I don't want to push my luck with all these males in the same house. XD
 

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