DA dogs with Canine Good Citizen certification?

[cliffdog]

I'm looking to have Abbey take the CGC test in the near future because I've really wanted her to get into therapy work. She loves people and has pretty good obedience, but I'm worried about test 8, reaction to another dog. Abbey is aggressive to dogs outside her "pack". She gets along with Bonnie, Bonnie's brother Clyde, and my sister's dog Laine, but other than that, she tries to outright kill any dog she meets. It's not fear, either... she gets quiet, starts shaking, and tries to pull to the other dog. I'm worried that I won't be able to get her to sit still and show "no more than casual interest" in the other dog.

So, I was wondering, does anyone here have a DA dog who managed to get their CGC certification? Any tips on training? Should I maybe save up for an e-collar to train her? She's very soft to correction, so I've only used positive marker training on her so far, but I don't know if that'll be enough to get her past the dog problem.

 

[Saeleofu]

Try the book Click to Calm. Gavroche was only mildly DR when he got his CGC (it progressed when his thyroid decided to stop working), and he did it with no problem - basically I just got him to focus on ME and not even look at the other dog. At this point I think he's probably back to where he could pass the CGC again, but he was to the point where between being fearful around people and DR, he would NOT have passed it. Click to Calm helped a TON in getting him to be better with other dogs. That being said, he wasn't truly DA, but moderately severe DR.

Bottom line is, if your dog tries to eat the other dog, they won't pass. Which I'm sure you know.

Also I would try to do positive training before trying to use aversives when it comes to aggression of any sort. I'm not against using aversives, but using them to work on aggression can make aggression worse.

 

[ihartgonzo]

I second the recommendation for Click to Calm. Control Unleashed is another must-have, there are soooo many amazing "games" to play to modify reactive behaviors!!! Look At That is one of the best games to play to teach a dog that looking at a strange dog is non-threatening and positive.

Being that she's dog friendly to your own dogs, I would venture to say that her aggression is fear-based, she just has a different way of reacting to that fear. You could use an e-collar and possibly get quick results, but you wouldn't be changing her opinion of strange dogs at all. In fact, you'll probably make her fear & loathe them MUCH MORE! She will only not react to avoid the shock, and being that you cannot use an e-collar in a CGC test, she might realize that and react to the other dog anyway. Changing the way she perceives the presence of strange dogs, as a source of yummy rewards/praise/good, will actually change the way her brain & body respond to seeing them permanently. Clickers are so valuable in the process because you can capture the moment she relaxes.

 

[Aleron]

Also I would try to do positive training before trying to use aversives when it comes to aggression of any sort. I'm not against using aversives, but using them to work on aggression can make aggression worse.

I agree with this.

As for CGC, some dogs will never be able to get one because of dog-dog issues or strangers touching them issues. Of course, plenty of dogs are DA but well trained enough and managed enough that no one notices in public. FWIW Your dog can't show any DA not just during your test but at any time before or after the test while the evaluator is present. If an evaluator sees a dog become DA, they have to fail them even if the dog isn't being tested at that time.

 

[elegy]

Luce has hers.

I agree with the others- a shock collar is not the right answer. Desensitization training while working under threshold and teaching your dog self-control and focus are going to be much better answers. This is true for any dog, but ESPECIALLY with a soft dog.

And what she's experiencing could very well be fear. A lot of fearful dogs choose the "the best defense is a good offense" option when dealing with other dogs.

 

[Mach1girl]

Many APBT are DA and still receive their CGC. Try this, for training, wrap treats in celophane, you know, the crunchy soundign celophane? Get her used to the noise the wrapper makes when you open it for a treat. Keep the celo in your pocket, and when that test is administered, crinkly the celo, it will (or should if she wants it bad enough) at least divert her attention to you, off and away from the other dog.


FYI-they are supossed to "make a pass" with another dog, they should not approach your dog, with this other dog.

If the CGC is for rehab therapy and such for humans, I dont believe this should be part of the test! But-

 

[stardogs]

If I had tested someone for the CGC who used the cellophane trick I'd likely have failed them - there's a reason food is not allowed in the test and I feel that using a wrapper in place of food goes against the goals of the test.

For people with dogs who are on edge with others but don't react unless provoked, I always suggested a solid sit stay a bit to your side and behind when stopping to "greet" the other person in that segment of the test. Shows nice proactive handling, sets the dog up for success, and can easily be used in real life.

 

[kady05]

Many APBT are DA and still receive their CGC. Try this, for training, wrap treats in celophane, you know, the crunchy soundign celophane? Get her used to the noise the wrapper makes when you open it for a treat. Keep the celo in your pocket, and when that test is administered, crinkly the celo, it will (or should if she wants it bad enough) at least divert her attention to you, off and away from the other dog.


FYI-they are supossed to "make a pass" with another dog, they should not approach your dog, with this other dog.

If the CGC is for rehab therapy and such for humans, I dont believe this should be part of the test! But-

#1, no treats or "aids" are allowed during the test, so crinkling anything in your pockets would more than likely fail you under most evaluators.

#2, yes, they do "make a pass". You have to walk up to another person with your dog in heel position, while they also have their dog in the heel position. You go up and shake hands with the person and the dogs are expected to show little interest in each other. There is also a "walking through crowd" portion of the test.. when I had Sako tested (this was for his CGC and TDI), this involved 10 of us weaving in/out of cones, the dogs all had contact with each other.

 

[Aleron]

If I had tested someone for the CGC who used the cellophane trick I'd likely have failed them - there's a reason food is not allowed in the test and I feel that using a wrapper in place of food goes against the goals of the test.

I was thinking the same thing. And really, it sort of defeats the purpose of the CGC test.

For people with dogs who are on edge with others but don't react unless provoked, I always suggested a solid sit stay a bit to your side and behind when stopping to "greet" the other person in that segment of the test. Shows nice proactive handling, sets the dog up for success, and can easily be used in real life.

This is excellent advice and what I teach to everyone in my CGC classes.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Arnold is DA/DR, he also was much worse when I got his CGC. It can be done with most dogs. My goal at the time was ignoring other dogs and obeying my commands no matter the environment. I asked for strict obedience and made no exceptions for environment. Today I would likely make attempts to work on enjoying the presence of other dogs but i also realize you cannot force an animal to enjoy something, you can however train a conditioned response. Such as, see a dog-look at me-get a reward.

 

[HayleyMarie]

Arnold is DA/DR, he also was much worse when I got his CGC. It can be done with most dogs. My goal at the time was ignoring other dogs and obeying my commands no matter the environment. I asked for strict obedience and made no exceptions for environment. Today I would likely make attempts to work on enjoying the presence of other dogs but i also realize you cannot force an animal to enjoy something, you can however train a conditioned response. Such as, see a dog-look at me-get a reward.

THIS^^ Emme is DA and I try to train using this method as much as I can and it does work wonders

 

[MafiaPrincess]

I'm looking to have Abbey take the CGC test in the near future because I've really wanted her to get into therapy work. She loves people and has pretty good obedience, but I'm worried about test 8, reaction to another dog. Abbey is aggressive to dogs outside her "pack".

Lots of people can make it through a cgc. There are also ways to make it work such as some instructors run a set of classes, and then test with the same dog that everyone got used to in class.. Shouldn't really need all that to pss, but whatever.

Even if a cgc can happen, most therapy organizations require more than a cgc requires for dog on dog interactions. It can also require both dogs meeting, sitting face to face while the handlers speak. That can be too much for a DA dog.

 

[stardogs]

Yea Maf is correct - I know TDInc requires the dogs to handle face to face, sometimes sudden, dog-dog interactions because they test dogs as a group and some of the handlers are a bit clueless.

Delta Society requires a CGC-like pass by, but the dog cannot growl, lunge, or otherwise react while on the testing grounds or they will be dismissed from even attempting the test again in the future.

I think TDI just has the typical CGC set up as well.

 

[Dekka]

Ya it kind of sucks. Dekka could get a CGN/CGC pretty easily. But she wouldn't pass the local therapy dog tests. Which is too bad, as she is small, friendly but very calm around people (A huge hit at the JRT booths with parents of small children who want to pet a jack) She could easily sit on a bed and be stroked by delicate elderly people. She also does cute and endearing tricks. She would never have an issue with a dog whilst working, but she would never pass the test.

AND just because I know she would make a great therapy dogs does not in anyway mean I am going to try to cheat their tests so she could get in.

 

[Aleron]

Lots of people can make it through a cgc. There are also ways to make it work such as some instructors run a set of classes, and then test with the same dog that everyone got used to in class.. Shouldn't really need all that to pss, but whatever.

Actually that's against the evaluator guidelines - evaluators are not supposed to test dogs they've had in class. When I teach CGC classes at the training club, someone else tests them at the end. And I test for other instructors.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Actually that's against the evaluator guidelines - evaluators are not supposed to test dogs they've had in class. When I teach CGC classes at the training club, someone else tests them at the end. And I test for other instructors.

Seems to happen all the time. CGC and CGN as I've heard of many people 'beating the system' with less trained dogs this way.

 

[Southpaw]

Actually that's against the evaluator guidelines - evaluators are not supposed to test dogs they've had in class. When I teach CGC classes at the training club, someone else tests them at the end. And I test for other instructors.

Juno's trainer was her CGC evaluator... however there were other people there to act as 'strangers' for the test items that called for that.

I think it's a much bigger advantage to take the test at the place you train at. For my dog, at least.

 

[Aleron]

Seems to happen all the time. CGC and CGN as I've heard of many people 'beating the system' with less trained dogs this way.

No doubt there are far too many evaluators who just do whatever. Not even sure if they read the guidelines. I've seen dogs who growled at people, snapped at other dogs, etc pass. Still that none of that is how the test is intended to be evaluated.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

My coworker tests all her clients. I have always thought of it as cheating. I know for a fact she's passed two (or more) dogs just to get tem out of our office. Sucks and demeans the validity of the title.

 

[kady05]

Oh wow, my trainers have never tested my dogs! I'm surprised to hear that happens at other places.