Contacts and Names

[Raegan]

Marsh and I had our first private agility lesson and it was fantastic! :hail::hail::hail: I have homework to do and when Marsh has 6 weave poles and a solid contact behavior I'm going to schedule another one. I loved working with her, she's an AKC judge and was recommended to me from a friend who credits her with getting a MACH on her border collie.

One of the big things we worked on was 2o2o, since Marsh had nothing of the sort. I had been toying with the idea of running contacts and didn't want to install 2o2o before I made up my mind, but I think that might wait for the next dog. I need to run faster first!

My question has to do with names for obstacles vs. names for actions. Do you name the contact behavior separate from the obstacle name? Such as "A-frame!" to get on the A-frame in the first place, then "bottom!" to land in a 2o2o? Or is the contact behavior inherent in the "A-frame!" I suppose there's no real harm in either way, it just changes how I want to name things. Is the teeter different than the A-Frame and Dogwalk? Is the Dogwalk different than the A-Frame?

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Cider has obstacle names and contact behaviour names. Ie, teeter, target, ok.

Obstacle, behaviour and release cue. Smudge.. I sadly got lazy and life is difficult. His strides are small and he rarely misses a contact, but it makes life harder to nt have a moment to walk away when your dog is on the contact and I need to get off my busy tush and work on 2o2o with him.

 

[AgilityKrazii]

Rosco has running contacts so for his dog walk, the cue is 'run' and then I say ' go, go, go' which is the cue for his contacts, same for the a-frame, 'climb, go, go, go' Teeter is just 'teeter' and nothing for contacts because he just goes over the teeter, no flying off and just runs to the end when its hit the ground.

For Pepzee his a-frame and dogwalk cues mean to also hit the contacts which are running as well.
For his teeter, if I want him to just run the teeter without a 2o2o I just say 'teeter, go, go, go' but for a 2o2o its 'teeter, go stick it'.

 

[Sekah]

When your dog is first learning contact obstacles you'll want to cue the target behaviour when they're part way through it. "Break, frame, mark-it, break!"

As your dog gets more familiar with the obstacle see if they'll target without a cue. "Break, frame, break!"

Each obstacle has an individual name (though I use "hup" for both jumps and the tire). So Frame, Teeter, Walk-it are the big contact names. Each one I used the same "mark-it" cue at the bottom when we were developing our 2o/2o. However now that Cohen has a decent understanding of their names I'll only toss in an obstacle name if required -- otherwise I just point her in the direction I want and let her go.

 

[BostonBanker]

I hardly ever use obstacle cues; I've had my fair share of being yelled at for it . I got so paranoid about "do not name the behavior until it is exactly what you are looking for" that I never named them, because I was certain they could get better. We have "chute" for tunnels and the chute and "weave". Other than that...yeah, not really solid obstacle names.

For contacts, Meg's contact cue (mat) is her obstacle cue. I used to give the command when she was on the equipment, but I found that giving it as she approaches gives her more speed (she's a contact junkie, the same way normal dogs are tunnel suckers).

 

[CaliTerp07]

Interesting. My trainer doesn't use a marker for touching the yellow, as it can slow the dog down and instill that awful slow crawl down the decline. Instead, we use a lot of targets and just place the target at the right distance to force the 2o/2o. The target can be faded, and eventually the behavior is proofed.

I actually do a running contact with Lucy, so I didn't have to work the enthusiastic drive into a stop. Our first choice for dogs is running contacts (so long as the handler can keep up). Stops are only used if the dog needs it for physical reasons or the handler needs that sure stop on the course to catch a few seconds.

Edited to add:

s the teeter different than the A-Frame and Dogwalk? Is the Dogwalk different than the A-Frame?

Verbals are actually a very secondary cue (motion is much stronger). If you're running towards the dog walk and say "frame!" the dog probably won't blink. I have a different word for the teeter, but frame and dog walk are the same (up up up!) I've mixed them up though with no discernable result, so long as I was indicating a specific obstacle with my motion/direction/location/etc.

 

[CaliTerp07]

(she's a contact junkie, the same way normal dogs are tunnel suckers).

Lucy usually is too. A lady at our last trial said they call those dogs "termites", 'cause they like wood

 

[BostonBanker]

I'm not sure I'd agree that a contact cue would slow a dog down, unless it was trained really poorly. Either with a cue or a stopped contact with no cue, you are asking for and (ideally) getting the same behavior; I don't think the dog cares if you name it or not.

I find the creep happens more with dogs whose owners think they have "trained" a running contact, but really just babysit the contacts the whole way down then release when they hit the yellow. I think the creep is an uncertainty of what the exact expected behavior is. I've watched some good friends train super running contacts, and heaven knows it is far more work than training a stop! My dogs will always have stopped contacts, partially because I do need that time to catch up on many courses, and partially because I'm not sure I'm dedicated enough to train a really good running contact!

Your mileage may vary, of course. Just my thoughts after obsessing over contact behaviors for a year or more!

 

[doberkim]

i agree, i dont think creeping has anything to do with verbals and everything to do with unclear contact criterion. i know i am unclear with berlin because she gets quick released in trials and full stops in training, so she sometimes creeps when she's asked to repeat contacts because she's not sure what she was supposed to be doing ... after a trial she is definitely going to blow her first contact and i will have to fix it. if we're not qualifying i hold her and stop her in a trial. or i try to

to this day i still give her a verbal reminder to hit her contact in a trial, which is "hit it". half the time when i am running im telling her the wrong contact obstacle anyway so im running her going - "walk it, no wait thats climb it, whatever berlin go up the wood in front of you HIT IT HIT IT HIT IT!!!! "

 

[Raegan]

This is what I think I'll do:

"Walk it" - Take the contact obstacle, not other choices. I'm not going to differentiate between A-Frame and Dogwalk. Under the assumption that verbal obstacle names are directions on path, not performance. From courses I've seen, discrimination between the two aren't common. I know I can't find words well under pressure, so I don't want to put myself in a position where I know I'll miss cue the dog.

"Tip it" Teeter. I feel like I want to warn the dog that something is going to move underneath them. To me, there is a difference between the A-Frame and the Teeter, but not the A-frame and the Dogwalk. Maybe not so to the dog though.

"Stick it" - Hit your contact. A reminder to stop as well as a reminder to collect at the peak.

 

[Shai]

What are your other on-course cues?

Just to make sure ones you train aren't very similar to others you use. For example a lot of people use "tunnel" "teeter" and "table" which is a lot of two-syllable T's when running at warp speed.

Personally I try to drop the "it" for repeat cues since it makes otherwise dissimilar cues sound the same. Just personal preference. I do use "walk it" but that's my only "it"

Obviously people are successful even with extremely similar/confusing verbal cues but it seems that this is often because the dog is ignoring the verbal and obeying the body...which is fine if that's the way you run but then there's no point in training the verbals in the first place.

Just my 2cents

 

[Dekka]

If contact cues slow your dog down you are doing it wrong lol. Some of the worlds top trainers use them and kick but at worlds every year, and their clients kick butt all over the place. A contact cue trained well will teach your dog to drive fast to the bottom, not creep. The only people I have seen with a creep are those who DIDN'T teach a contact behaviour but keep slowing their dogs down with some word. (I wish my dog crept a little lol)

Contact names are important depending on the venue. CPE, not so much. AAC gamblers, its pretty important. You are 20 feet away and your dog is heading towards two things side by side.... Many people who do those sorts of games teach obstacle discrimnation by name, vs just take what I am pointing you at. I have seen dogs take what is called because the handler had an oops vs what they were handling towards. Granted its often the other way around.

I need to do more name discrimination with Dekka, with Kaiden however I can stand stock still and call out names of obstacles and he will find one and take it. (he rocks master gamblers lol)

 

[Raegan]

What are your other on-course cues?

Just to make sure ones you train aren't very similar to others you use. For example a lot of people use "tunnel" "teeter" and "table" which is a lot of two-syllable T's when running at warp speed.

Personally I try to drop the "it" for repeat cues since it makes otherwise dissimilar cues sound the same. Just personal preference. I do use "walk it" but that's my only "it"

Obviously people are successful even with extremely similar/confusing verbal cues but it seems that this is often because the dog is ignoring the verbal and obeying the body...which is fine if that's the way you run but then there's no point in training the verbals in the first place.

Just my 2cents

Very good points, all. I think right now my only other T is tunnel. I use Spot for table, which is his mat cue. It's working. I'll consider dropping It, it'll depend on it works out on course and what my brain can produce while running. That's always the biggest challenge, LOL.

Other agility words:

Out- move laterally away from me
Here- move laterally in to me
Go- drive forward
Easy- don't break you neck, please
Chute- chute/collapsed tunnel
MarshMarshMarshMarsh- Yo dog, look at me!

I think that's all I have right now, trained or planned.

 

[adojrts]

Curious, how many ppl call every obstacle?

I don't, although I do work a lot on obstacle discrimination at distance for gambles. I also don't use a verbal for contacts or a down on the table, reason is if I present the obstacle they are to do it unless otherwise told different For the contact equipment, the criteria is do the obstacle independant of me, where I am or where I am going etc and do the contact as it was trained. In my mind the contact obstacle includes the contact criteria and isn't separate.
So if I do speak on course, it is to give added support or additional information and when I do speak I want an immediate response.

 

[Shai]

Depends. For Mira, who I actually trained (vs. Kim and Web who sort of learned along with me, poor pups)...she's a babydog but I cue as follows:

Release word for contacts (she does stopped contacts)
Cue contacts/tunnel if the entry is odd or as soon as she can see it ahead in the case of a line of jumps...basically a "yup we're going there and you are faster so go for it honey"
Only cue jumps if it's some sort of send and I'm overruling my own decel, etc.
Pretty much always cue weaves since she'll find them and do them so it frees me up to head where I need to go next

This is just so far, little girl's only done 2 trials lol

Kim is basically the same except that I need to babysit her weaves and contacts a bit. Web I basically don't even need to cue unless I feel like it since he's smaller and I can be right wherever needed

 

[Beanie]

Curious, how many ppl call every obstacle?

I don't call every jump, but I do call most of them, and usually call every obstacle. Mostly it's to keep me on track rather than do much for the dog though. After all, I once ran a jumpers course and cued a jump with "SIX" because it was the sixth jump. *facepalm* I haven't gotten lost on a course in a long time, but there are times that I'm running a course and suddenly have this horrifying fleeting thought that I'm no longer sure if I'm running the right way...
That's not Auggie's fault, it's mine, LOL.

 

[CaliTerp07]

I only call discriminations. If my body says one thing and my voice says another, she'll do what my body language says every time. Verbal is just an opportunity for me to screw it up.

I'm working on a pure verbal for the tunnel, but that's it. I don't have a verbal for out/switch/etc either.

 

[BostonBanker]

Curious, how many ppl call every obstacle?

Not I. Like I said, I tend to get in trouble when I go to seminars and such, and the instructor says "What is your jump cue?"...and I just look at them with a blank stare. I don't have a jump cue at all, or a tire cue, or contact obstacle cues. I do have a very clear tunnel/chute cue ("chute") which is nice for those tunnel/contact discriminations, and a weave cue ("weave") which is nice for getter her to collect on landing from a jump when I cue it early. "Up" for a table cue. Other than that, my courses tend to consist only of "Meg" (turn towards me) "Flip" (turn away from me) and occasionally "Out" (get laterally away). Oh, and "mat" for her stopped contact.

I think, if I haven't given up completely on gambles after this weekend, that I may start trying to train better verbal cues on some equipment. Or I'll just run AKC forever and never worry about it again. Or take up ping pong.