CM gets bitten... again (vid included)

Barbara!

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
1,457
Likes
0
Points
0
#41
Most resource guarding is fixable. To me, saying you don't want to live with a resource guarder is almost like saying you don't want to live with a dog that isn't house broken... It's fixable, so why get rid of the dog just because you don't want to put in the time to fix the issue? (Granted that a dog not being house broken doesn't involve biting.) Also, I see a HUGE difference between resource guarding and flat out human aggression.
 

Aleron

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,269
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
NE Ohio
#42
That is not RG, however, it's an issue that I could see people jumping to "shoot the dog" and I really question if they could be so callus looking into that dogs eyes, evaluating their failures as a handler, and killing the dog.

"If you don't train me, don't blame me." is a silly cliche poster my boss just put up at work but damned if it's not pointed with an issue as such.
I think this is a really good point. Then having a breed that often shows RG as young puppies still with their littermates, I hardly think it is a reason to jump to "the dog must die". IME most RG can be worked with and managed...even with kids in the house.

It's actually extremely common with bully breed owners to preach acceptance of nature and DA/DR(/bad manners) but god forbid a dog display a natural reaction like stress reactions and RG.
I've noticed this too.
 

kady05

Active Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
1,285
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
31
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
#43
It's actually extremely common with bully breed owners to preach acceptance of nature and DA/DR(/bad manners) but god forbid a dog display a natural reaction like stress reactions and RG.


However, I know, respect, and understand many including Kady. It's totally reasonable to say one has no desire to live with a resource guarder. I never again want a dog who is DA, natural behavior or not.
For me, I accept DA/DR because it's a breed trait in the dogs I own. HA is not; although, I don't tolerate that in any breed. However, I would not willingly accept a DA/DR dog into my house.. luckily, none of my dogs have any DA/DR.

Now, resource guarding I think is totally workable, in some situations. In THIS situation, the dog needed to be rehomed or PTS, IMO. The people had been working with multiple trainers for quite some time, with no success. And, the dog actually was getting worse (went from just food guarding to then showing guarding behavior when crated).

Piper was food aggressive as a puppy, I worked with it and she's totally fine now. I expect my dogs to let me do whatever I want to them when they're eating, and they all do. Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know.
 

Maxy24

Active Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
8,070
Likes
2
Points
38
Age
27
Location
Massachusetts
#46
I would be worried about having a resource guarder in my house if I had a young child. I most certainly think resource guarding is fixable in many cases, but to say all you need to do is feed the dog in peace is not quite accurate. I was at my friends house and was eating a snickers. I dropped the wrapped on the floor, the dog was laying next to where it landed, and bent down to pick the wrapper up at the same time the dog decided she wanted the wrapper and she bark/snapped at me. If she was a less inhibited dog I could have gotten bitten, and it had nothing to do with the dog's meals. All it could take for their kid to be maimed is her dropping something on the floor and picking it up while the dog is going for it.


I do think it's a fixable behavior though, at least a lot of the time, so I would have a really hard time putting down a dog for the behavior unless the dog is so unstable it would attack you for entering the room or something where food is present. But I agree that if someone doesn't feel safe having that dog in a home with their young child, if they don't think they can be hyper vigilant enough to prevent a bite, there is nothing wrong with looking at other options. But I don't think CM is a humane one.
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
94,266
Likes
2
Points
36
Location
Where the selas blooms
#47
I can understand Kady's point of view, and we all get to make those choices about the dogs we own and decide what we can and can't live/work with.

The shame comes when someone screws up or allows a trainer to screw up their dog and the dog pays the price.
 

rubygirl

New Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
202
Likes
0
Points
0
#48
I won't comment on anything else, but, Sako is the same way if he knows I'm mad at him. He won't completely roll like Junior did, but he does the slinky, low tail wagging, ears back stuff. He's just naturally super submissive, and sensitive. He's never been abused a day in his life (actually, he's been the most coddled of all of my dogs and gets away with more crap than the other two ever have).

So, just saying that just because a dog does that doesn't automatically = OMGABUSE!
Yup^^^
 

rubygirl

New Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
202
Likes
0
Points
0
#49
well, if it were me, and i had a kid, i would never own a dog like that. Actually, that dog would've been in the ground had it offered that kind of behavior. Apparently she bit both owners multiple times over it, and cesar was the 3rd or 4th trainer they worked with. What if, god forbid, the kid dropped food on the floor one day?

I'm not saying i agree with how cesar handled it, but my opinion is that the dog would've been pts had it of been in my care. But then again, i come from a "pit bull" frame of mind.
thank you
 
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,568
Likes
0
Points
0
#50
I just train my dogs NOT to resource guard. I also train them not to act like asshats to other dogs.

I personally wouldn't own another Soft,sensitive dog. Especially an AST or APBT. I **** sure wouldn't breed a dog with that temperament, not breed standard at all.

At the end of the day to each their own. Anyone that feels what CM did in this video was OK and that Jr's reaction in the 2nd video was OK....has some serious issues. Nothing about rhw behavior in these videos is ok.
 

Danefied

New Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#51
Well, if it were me, and I had a kid, I would never own a dog like that. Actually, that dog would've been in the ground had it offered that kind of behavior. Apparently she bit both owners multiple times over it, and Cesar was the 3rd or 4th trainer they worked with. What if, god forbid, the kid dropped food on the floor one day?

I'm not saying I agree with how Cesar handled it, but my opinion is that the dog would've been PTS had it of been in my care. But then again, I come from a "Pit Bull" frame of mind.
Sometimes I wonder if people would be so quick to kill dogs if it was real to them and not hypothetical.
Thanks Adrianne. I wonder that too.

Kady, I don’t know if you mean to, but you sound awfully smug and self-righteous when you say *you* would never keep a dog like that if you had a kid.

Do you think I looked at my kids one day and said “hey, how much fun would it be to try and keep them safe from a food aggressive dog†and then deliberately went out looking for the biggest FA dog I could find?

Sometimes dogs fall in your lap and you’re left figuring out what to do with a life no one else wants to take responsibility for. Its not an easy decision no matter how you slice it. And when the dog is real, right in front of you, its even harder.

We chose to teach the kids a lesson in compassion. That lives are worth saving, that trust can be rebuilt, that everyone deserves a chance at redemption. I am eternally grateful to Lunar for helping us teach our kids that lesson. Because the direct experience they have had with his complete transformation is something that will stay with them forever.

I have absolutely no problem with those who don’t want to take that risk, but please, lets look down our noses at those of us who make an informed, carefully weighed decision to work with this kind of dog.
 

kady05

Active Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
1,285
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
31
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
#52
Thanks Adrianne. I wonder that too.

Kady, I don’t know if you mean to, but you sound awfully smug and self-righteous when you say *you* would never keep a dog like that if you had a kid.

Do you think I looked at my kids one day and said “hey, how much fun would it be to try and keep them safe from a food aggressive dog†and then deliberately went out looking for the biggest FA dog I could find?

Sometimes dogs fall in your lap and you’re left figuring out what to do with a life no one else wants to take responsibility for. Its not an easy decision no matter how you slice it. And when the dog is real, right in front of you, its even harder.

We chose to teach the kids a lesson in compassion. That lives are worth saving, that trust can be rebuilt, that everyone deserves a chance at redemption. I am eternally grateful to Lunar for helping us teach our kids that lesson. Because the direct experience they have had with his complete transformation is something that will stay with them forever.

I have absolutely no problem with those who don’t want to take that risk, but please, lets look down our noses at those of us who make an informed, carefully weighed decision to work with this kind of dog.
Holy wow, way to assume all of that just from one post!

I specifically said if *I* had a kid, *I* wouldn't own a dog like that. Never did I say "Anyone that does have a dog like that with a kid is a horrible parent" or anything remotely similar. Your kid(s). Your dog. You do what you want.
 

Danefied

New Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#53
Thanks Kady, I wasn’t asking for your approval :)

I’m simply saying that its not always so clear cut. Dog bites human = PTS. For many of us its not that black and white. There are a lot of grey areas and you have to look at the whole of the picture, not just the fact that the dog bit.

In this case for example, its predictable aggression which makes management a very viable option. The dog tried very hard not to bite. I can’t imagine a toddler pushing the dog to the extent Cesar did or even ignoring the signals to the extent Cesar did. One of my kids got air snapped at the old grumpy dog when said kid fell on top of the dog, and the kid at less than 2 years knew exactly what the air snap meant and was very upset by it. I really don’t see how this couldn’t have been managed and rehabilitated in a home that was responsible about management and knowledgeable to do the rehab.
 

Laurelin

I'm All Ears
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
30,963
Likes
3
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Oklahoma
#55
I'll be honest in that I've been bitten by three of my dogs over the years. Only one was any bad at all. All three were my fault. Two of them actually involved resource guarding. I was raised that you had to be the 'boss' of the dog. Nikki was very much like this dog on the video. And when I went to take something from her, she growled and air snapped, then I (being an idiot kid) pushed back at her and I got bit. Why do we expect to be able to do whatever we want to a dog and when they do something back, we immediately yell for them to be put down?

The one thing that bothered me about that dog was that when it did go in to bite, it landed multiple bites. However, I don't know the history of the dog or what has happened to it. How long has it been pushed and pushed and pushed. How many times has it air snapped and no one heeded the warning? How many times has it landed one warning bite?

The idea that dogs shouldn't ever bite and if they do then it's the axe is very strange to me.
 
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
2,365
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
High Ridge, MO
#56
The smug calling the smug smug. Uh, wait...

Yeah, I had my roll over this video on Facebook. I don't consider what this dog did to be an inhibited bite, nor do I consider it to be truly threatened. The last thing I see before the big bite is Cesar stopping and not doing anything. My response to things like this is purely visceral in nature. Cesar may not handle things the way many would want them handled, but I think that dog is way beyond and I wouldn't put up with it. At that point, it would be coming to Jesus to see the light or there would be no light at all.

And yes, I have walked the walk. With beautiful, promising, young dogs. I may not have done it over food aggression, but if one of my dogs had attacked a person in this manner, with the stimulus presented in this video, it would be enough for me. I would feel a huge liability owning such a dog.

Some of you might remember the "Fido" thread about a "friend's" dog. Yeah, I was talking about my own dog. And yes, she lives. Under tremendous pressure to control her mouth. But I came close. Homie don't play that. Had her last incident been a lucid bite and not an "oops, I missed," there would have been no question.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
3,199
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
St. Louis, MO
#57
Kady, I don’t know if you mean to, but you sound awfully smug and self-righteous when you say *you* would never keep a dog like that if you had a kid.
Are people just not reading the bolded part?

yes, the posts came across weird to me as well.

I dont really think anyone knows exactly what they would do into they are in the situation. Even if one has been in a very similar situation in the past, the future situation would not be the same.

Yes, I think for people who have worked and rehabbed resource guarders its really hard to hear people jump to PTS when its usually a pretty easy and painless rehab. Now it can definitely cross a line, some dogs resource guard everything. This dog seemed to have issues with her food, and had to be pushed and messed with before she bit. This dog had issues BECAUSE of how her owners treated her. I am assuming no one here on Chaz is ridiculous enough to treat RG like they did. And if it was a rescue coming with issue I would assume the person would realize there was rehab to be done
 

Laurelin

I'm All Ears
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
30,963
Likes
3
Points
0
Age
32
Location
Oklahoma
#59
Are people just not reading the bolded part?

yes, the posts came across weird to me as well.

I dont really think anyone knows exactly what they would do into they are in the situation. Even if one has been in a very similar situation in the past, the future situation would not be the same.

Yes, I think for people who have worked and rehabbed resource guarders its really hard to hear people jump to PTS when its usually a pretty easy and painless rehab. Now it can definitely cross a line, some dogs resource guard everything. This dog seemed to have issues with her food, and had to be pushed and messed with before she bit. This dog had issues BECAUSE of how her owners treated her. I am assuming no one here on Chaz is ridiculous enough to treat RG like they did. And if it was a rescue coming with issue I would assume the person would realize there was rehab to be done
Exactly that.

Yeah the bite was not as inhibited as I would like to see but I don't think it was an 'uncalled for' bite.

The dog is tense the entire time and never gets a chance to get away from Cesar. He just keeps on and on escalating the situation when it's totally uncalled for. The dog is nervous at first but doesn't react until he gets right over her and starts sticking his hands over her food. Then he never lets off of her.

I think many dogs I've known and some I've owned would have bitten him too in that situation. It's just plain stupid.
 

Danefied

New Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#60
I read this part. Found it far more smug as anything Katy said.
Because you didn’t read my tone of voice. It was meant as a genuine, thank you, I get it, but its not about seeking approval. Its that its not a black and white decision.

But whatever, its bedtime for me anyway and even though I act tough its still not pleasant to be treated like this. Night all. Hug your dogs.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top