CM gets bitten... again (vid included)

kady05

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#21
Well, if it were me, and I had a kid, I would never own a dog like that. Actually, that dog would've been in the ground had it offered that kind of behavior. Apparently she bit both owners multiple times over it, and Cesar was the 3rd or 4th trainer they worked with. What if, god forbid, the kid dropped food on the floor one day?

I'm not saying I agree with how Cesar handled it, but my opinion is that the dog would've been PTS had it of been in my care. But then again, I come from a "Pit Bull" frame of mind.
 

BlackPuppy

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#22
Wow! I finally got my computer working to watch. That has got to hurt like h#ll!

There are much better ways to deal with food aggression. I don't if those where tried or not.
 
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#23
I think "a" RG can live safety with "a" family. Aside from whatever work is put into the problem, food is not actually THAT hard to manage if you are willing to. BTDT not with a RG against humans, but a severe RG against other pets when all I knew what to do about it was management.

Having said that, I don't think this RG could live safely with this family.
 

Aleron

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#24
Granted, once he pushed her in to the bite, she will have a lowered bite threshold. But what I saw was a dog trying very hard to NOT bite which to me makes for much easier rehabilitation.
I agree with this. And even when she did bite, IMO it was a very inhibited bite. She could have easily torn his hand up, broken bones,etc but it looks like she just left one puncture that bled. I'm sure it hurt and I'm sure it probably swelled up but certainly not as serious of a bite as I expected after seeing it.

I would have really liked to see what Jean Donaldson could do with this dog using her RG protocol. RG doesn't have to be a death sentence, even if the dog lives with kids. This dog was never given a chance at true "rehabilitation".
 

Doberluv

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#25
Big difference between conditioning a dog from puppyhood to accept it, and taking a dog with a massive hang-up about the food bowl and trying to fondle its kibble.

Every now and then I interrupt my dog while she's eating and go in, touch the food and add something good before i release her. She will call off of anything because of it. If I just walked up to her and started throwing my hand around in her dish while she was eating kibble? I'd kind of expect a little grumbling or teeth showing. I'd do the same **** thing if I was chowing down and someone started poking and messing with my food. Seriously.
Well of course there is a big difference! That's why when a dog already displays resource guarding you don't start out by touching his food and taking his bowl, immediately putting him on the defenesive. This is what I've done for a living, make house calls for dogs with these types of issues and other types of "aggression" issues. And often times, they were people who had emulated CM and their problems had escalated. Then they'd call me. I got quite a few calls from people like this. People watch his drama and see those dogs temporarily stop behaving (stop behaving period) and think he's so effective. They don't get the rest of it.:rolleyes:

Cesar torments dogs, goads them into defensive behavior, agitates them on purpose to push them past their limit, and then attacks them for it. The psychological damage he causes dogs is unreal. They live in a constant state of stress and learned helplessness. We all know what chronic stress does to living things physiologically, not to mention psychologically....raises blood pressure, respiration rate, and heart rate, increases cortisol levels and adrenalin, among other physically damaging things when they're so high and constant. He knows absolutely nil about dog behavior and rambles on with all kinds of b.s. pseudo- psycho babble, as it was said. He does it all for TV drama which makes him money. And his followers are idiots to not look for other answers.

Resource guarding is normal behavior. What we do to condition them into liking people coming around their stuff or even taking something from them (sometimes it's necessary) is what's unnatural to an animal. But dogs are so phenomenal, they can be taught relatively easily. So I disagree that a dog should be pts for this right off the bat. I wouldn't put a dog down automatically without trying some sound behavior modification protocol first. Not for this.

Of course I wouldn't like someone taking or touching my food either. But if they brought me a $100.00 bill and picked up my plate of spaghetti from the table, then gave me a plate of Maine lobster and rib eye steak along with the $100.00 bill, I'd wish for a repeat of that. lol.

I had a client, actually a couple with a dog that was so strongly guarding, that they had to feed him in another room and close the door quickly. They put the food down and then let the dog in the laundry room, then closed the door to let him eat. It had come to this because the dog would literally charge across the length of two rooms...the kitchen, where the bowl was set down, through the eating area where the table was, clear across into the living room to get people away, snarling, gnashing teeth. He had bitten the owners on a few occasions. This couple didn't have kids...yet. I told them the dog will always have to be managed/watched, but that we should be able to fix this pretty well, albeit, it was a severe case and it would take some time because it would be a mistake to go too fast. This dog they got from a friend, was somewhat guardy when they first had him. But they had tried to show him who's boss and would take his food away when he'd growl if they came near and scold him. It was hard to pull it out of them, but I knew that if it had escalated from mild to this severe, something had to drive that to this point.

By the time I had them go through a very gradual process with various and specific phases, the dog was looking up periodically while eating to see if anyone was going to bring something extra special over to him.

We started out with the humans "possessing" the food and no bowl. The dog had to do things, like sit, down, come, shake and he'd get a handful of food. Then progressed to a bowl but it was held on the owner's lap and still fed by hand. Possession is 9/10ths of the law in a dog's world. It's highly uncommon to guard or get snarky over something that isn't "their's."

When it was time to set a bowl down, a couple of weeks later, various bowls were used, not always the same one. Only a handful at a time would be dropped into the bowl. While the dog was eating his handful out of the bowl, the owner was to walk away across the room. Just as the dog would finish, the owner came and dropped in more food. If the dog had become snarky during this phase, they would have to go back a step. But he had come to know that food comes from peoples' hands. Before long, the dog was looking up when he finished, 'saying' "come back, bring more food." LOL. That dog...that was so much worse than this dog on the video... became relaxed and fine having people come around his food. He'd look up and wag his tail as if to say, "I feel so much better.".
 
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#26
It was pretty stupid but I probably would put down a dog that explosive
I guess I dont see the dog as being that explosive? I see it as a dog pushed just WAY too far.

I didnt see the episode, but someone was saying that the owner used to torment her with a broom or something when eating? It seemed to me this dog tried her best NOT to bite and finally just was pushed over the edge and learned it was the only thing she coudl do
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#27
Sometimes I wonder if people would be so quick to kill dogs if it was real to them and not hypothetical.

A couple weeks ago Backup had some serious issues due to a change in his stressors and he bit me three times and tried to bite Denis once. Denis clobbered him, IMO fairly, but what solved the issue instead of escalating it was management and evaluation of how to deal with change in the future.

That is not RG, however, it's an issue that I could see people jumping to "shoot the dog" and I really question if they could be so callus looking into that dogs eyes, evaluating their failures as a handler, and killing the dog.

"If you don't train me, don't blame me." is a silly cliche poster my boss just put up at work but damned if it's not pointed with an issue as such.
 
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#28
Yea I don't see the dog as being particularly explosive. She showed a great deal of restraint and inhibition IMO. For most of the video leading up to the bite she is giving off every signal she has in her doggie toolbox that she's uncomfortable and needs him to back off, which he doesn't recognize and/or ignores.

If someone approached me in a domineering, intimidating manner and I asked them over and over and over again to get out of my face and they ignored me, kept coming at me, and backed me into a corner, would I be explosive if I shoved them away from me? It's not the dog's fault that for her, a shove is a bite.
 

Doberluv

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#30
That dog was totally not explosive...just pushed beyond reasonable limits. Poking with a broom? Sheesh! Idiots. And people still insist on resorting to punishment even when they see what it can do. It's got to have something to do with control issues in the humans. Got to have control over another being, at all costs. Don't work with the dog, making him change his mind about stressors, don't try and understand the dog....just freakin' control by punishment. Puke.
 

Doberluv

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#31
This was posted on FB and I thought you all may find it interesting :) It's a breakdown of what went on in the Cesaer clip.

http://canineaggression.blogspot.ca/2012/09/food-aggression-and-famous-trainer.html

Yep....you can see every one of those things, watching the video. Why is that man not arrested for animal cruelty? Seriously....how can this go on? He's punching and kicking the dog. How can people think this is okay??? Someone needs to get on TV and tell it like it is...pointing these things out that he does, spelling it out and showing alternatives. Arrrggggg!:madgo::wall:
 

BlackPuppy

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#33
I guess I dont see the dog as being that explosive? I see it as a dog pushed just WAY too far.

I didnt see the episode, but someone was saying that the owner used to torment her with a broom or something when eating? It seemed to me this dog tried her best NOT to bite and finally just was pushed over the edge and learned it was the only thing she coudl do
That is so sad. :(

Everybody wants a perfect dog. However, they don't come that way automatically, and so many people don't know what to do.

I think every one of my puppies came to me a resource guarder. And every puppy got trained out of it immediately. Only when there is something really really good,like a raw chicken, do they get a little guardy, and that's to be expected.

Oh, well. These owners shouldn't have a dog if what is said is true.
 

Dogdragoness

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#35
Well, if it were me, and I had a kid, I would never own a dog like that. Actually, that dog would've been in the ground had it offered that kind of behavior. Apparently she bit both owners multiple times over it, and Cesar was the 3rd or 4th trainer they worked with. What if, god forbid, the kid dropped food on the floor one day?

I'm not saying I agree with how Cesar handled it, but my opinion is that the dog would've been PTS had it of been in my care. But then again, I come from a "Pit Bull" frame of mind.
which is why i was shocked to read a post like that from someone who owns such a misunderstood breed.

FA & RG are both very manageable in the right hands. just feed the dog in a crate or in a room away from everyone & dont allow anyone to go in there until she is finished. RG is a natural thing & in the dog's defense, she did warn him a lot before finally lashing out. the fact that after being provolked over & over again, i think she still showed an incredible amount of bite inhibition, i have cattle dogs, a dog bred to bite & not back down. if it had been my dear Izze he had done that to, he would have been on his way to a hospital, not treating it with proxide & saline solution. because the more he would have hit & kicked at heer, the more she would have held on.

i have only been bit like this once & i learned how to read the dog better so i dont put another dog in this kind of situation, which cant be fun for the dog either, most dogs dont WANT to hurt a human, esp not a fearful dog like this one & the fact that she took lots of prodding to get a response out of her says alot.
 
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#36
Personally, I don't think it's unreasonable for a dog to be left alone when it's eating. Or for kids to learn to leave the dog alone when it's eating.

Is it ideal? No. There may be a time when you need to take something for the dog's safety, but it's not the end of the world. Mickie would snap if you messed with her when she was eating, and bite if you didn't take the hint. Even my sister understood that you don't bother Mickie when she's eating -- as a toddler. Sure, we did our best to keep anything from happening, like feeding Mickie in her own quiet spot, and she did learn that no one was going to steal her food and starve her so she got to the point where I could take her dish and move it -- if I told her first.

It sure as hell would have made things 1000X worse if we'd beaten her or tried to roll her :rolleyes: It amazes me that people actually fall for his BS.
 

adojrts

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#38
Idiot, plain and simple. Man and his followers just have no idea just how dangerous, misinformed and uneducated he and his methods are.

I really do get sick and tired of taking the same phone calls and rehab'ing the PEOPLE that watch his show and try to use his methods. It is ALWAYS the same, and the dogs get worse, problems are not solved but made worse or created.
Sadly he keeps trainers like myself very busy, however we would much rather train people and their dogs to prevent these types of problems from the get go, than clean up and fix the messes we see after the fact.
The only cool thing about it, is when people are amazed at fast their dogs behaviour changes when not using those old outdated methods. How happy the dogs and the owners become............good thing too because it keeps us going onto the next ones that need the help :)
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#40
It's actually extremely common with bully breed owners to preach acceptance of nature and DA/DR(/bad manners) but god forbid a dog display a natural reaction like stress reactions and RG.


However, I know, respect, and understand many including Kady. It's totally reasonable to say one has no desire to live with a resource guarder. I never again want a dog who is DA, natural behavior or not.
 

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